Irish or Latin?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 16-02-2011 12:34PM

Crosáidí wrote: »

Irish is useful in Ireland, its use in the States and Canada is growing slightly

Not when everyone speaks English. The number of monolingual Irish speakers compared to other languages is very small.

Deleted User wrote: »

Merge all the "keep the/ kill the Irish language" threads in one please.

That wasn't the question, and most of us aren't debating it. I certainly don't want it killed, just not overvalued, but that has nothing to do with what language I would like to be able speak.

Wibbs · 16-02-2011 12:49PM

Crosáidí wrote: »

Irish is useful in Ireland, its use in the States and Canada is growing slightly

Oh jayzuz. :pac: Useful here is very debatable, but in the US and Canada? No seriously, that was a joke yes?:pac::pac:

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

That wasn't the question, and most of us aren't debating it. I certainly don't want it killed, just not overvalued, but that has nothing to do with what language I would like to be able speak.

This.

Cú Giobach · 16-02-2011 01:21PM

Wibbs wrote: »

In other words urban accented Irish. I don't have an English accent. I do have a Dublin accent however. So if I learn Irish, no matter how fluent I become I will sound like a foreigner to a "gaeilgeoir's ear" if I keep that accent? Unless I affect a "culchie" accent as Gaelige I'm not speaking it correctly? Id est the "culchie"/rural accent is correct Irish. Well done. You've just proven my point for me.

What about someone with an urban Galwegian or an urban Belfastard, or an urban Corkonian? Are their accents "Irish", or is just Dubliners being singled out? Or am I missing something?

You really really are missing something.
Please note I specifically said the accent of an English speaker. The last time I looked this includes people from Galway, Belfast, Cork etc...

I can explain this very easily using as an example the difference between the English, French and Irish pronunciation of the letter "R".
When an English speaker learns French they learn to pronounce the "R" sound the "French way" ie trilled at the back of the throat, for an English speaker to pronounce say the word regardez without following this rule sounds (I'm sure you will agree) wrong and quite uncouth (think Del Boy) and any French class involves the learning of this particular sound.

Now the Irish pronunciation of the R sound in say the word Rith is trilled at the front of the mouth with the tongue in roughly the L position.
Exactly as with the French, to pronounce this word in Irish with the English R sound sounds improper, but when used in English this sound would be considered by many to be "culchie".

These rules are as important in the speaking of Irish as any other language, it just happens that because of irrational and unfounded biases this proper way of speaking the language is considered by some to be........well...... read your own post.
Would you have the same attitude towards someone who commented on speaking other languages with the proper sounds, or do you save this for just Irish?

To give you an Idea how ridiculous your attitude is I have changed the words Irish/culchie for French in the following quote.

"Unless I affect a French accent in French I'm not speaking it correctly? Id est the French accent is correct French. Well done. You've just proven my point for me."
(Just think how French sounds from an English speaker if they don't make an effort with the accent)

Pace2008 · 16-02-2011 01:47PM

Crosáidí wrote: »

Irish is useful in Ireland, its use in the States and Canada is growing slightly

Disingenuous nonsense. In practical terms, Irish is a redundant language. I'd say I could count on one lámh the number of people who speak Irish exclusively, and for that to be true 10 years down the line, I'd have to be dismembered at some point.

Krusader · 16-02-2011 01:58PM

http://www.usefoundation.org/userdata/file/Research/Languages/irish_gaelic.pdf

25,000 speakers in USA

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=112321272139421#!/photo.php?fbid=1484685672211&set=o.112321272139421

ATM in New York with Gaeilge option

http://www.antoireachtas.ie/news2.php?ID=27

New summer oireachtas to be held in Canada this summer

Many 3rd level universities offer courses in Gaeilge like Notre Dame, Harvard

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 16-02-2011 02:57PM

Crosáidí wrote: »

http://www.usefoundation.org/userdata/file/Research/Languages/irish_gaelic.pdf

25,000 speakers in USA

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=112321272139421#!/photo.php?fbid=1484685672211&set=o.112321272139421

ATM in New York with Gaeilge option

http://www.antoireachtas.ie/news2.php?ID=27

New summer oireachtas to be held in Canada this summer

Many 3rd level universities offer courses in Gaeilge like Notre Dame, Harvard

Excuse me, but how "useful" is an Irish-laguage ATM in New York City?? And how many of the 25000 Irish speakers are monoligual??

Krusader · 16-02-2011 03:02PM

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Excuse me, but how "useful" is an Irish-laguage ATM in New York City?? And how many of the 25000 Irish speakers are monoligual??

How vital are a lot of things, people on here say Irish is useless but when a use is found for it, they knock it back, just can't please ye :rolleyes:

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 16-02-2011 04:46PM

Crosáidí wrote: »

How vital are a lot of things, people on here say Irish is useless but when a use is found for it, they knock it back, just can't please ye :rolleyes:

I said "useful" not "vital".

Other people might have referred to Irish as useless, I didn't, so you can take your rolley eyes back, thank you very much. I just said that, from a practical level, Irish is not that useful as other langauges, which it isn't. If that ATM was the only ATM in the whole of NYC, you'd have a point.

kraggy · 16-02-2011 04:50PM

FFs yet another crap excuse to have a bash at Irish as a language.

When will this fascination with bashing Irish come to a stop on AH.

Sad.

galah · 16-02-2011 04:58PM

I have 7 years of Latin, and roughly 3 years of Irish, and I must say that Irish is definitely more useful to me...:P

That said, having Latin as a "base" helps with a lot of other languages such as French, Spanish, English, and 'doctor', but I still prefer Irish since it is actually spoken around where I live. I love the sound of Irish, I love the grammar, and the way the language expresses itself. It's just nice!

(however: it's still difficult as a a foreigner to find proper classes inbetween 'superbasic-just-say-hello-don't-worry-about-grammar' and 'today we'll talk about the pitfalls of bog-cotton growing and the effects on the economy in central Africa through the modh foshuiteach", but hey...)

enda1 · 16-02-2011 05:07PM

kraggy wrote: »

FFs yet another crap excuse to have a bash at Irish as a language.

When will this fascination with bashing Irish come to a stop on AH.

Sad.

Probably when its resigned to its position as a regional minority language and remove in importance from the constitution.

The fact that its pushed down our throats for 15 years, adds bureaucratic effort to public bodies, is an exam solicitors in Ireland must pass (really in order to say in Irish - "I don't speak Irish, how about I give you the contact details of a colleague of mine who does?), takes up space on warning and road signs disturbing the message and making them harder to grasp quickly etc. etc.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 16-02-2011 05:12PM

kraggy wrote: »

FFs yet another crap excuse to have a bash at Irish as a language.

When will this fascination with bashing Irish come to a stop on AH.

Sad.

galah wrote: »

I have 7 years of Latin, and roughly 3 years of Irish, and I must say that Irish is definitely more useful to me...:P

That said, having Latin as a "base" helps with a lot of other languages such as French, Spanish, English, and 'doctor', but I still prefer Irish since it is actually spoken around where I live. I love the sound of Irish, I love the grammar, and the way the language expresses itself. It's just nice!

(however: it's still difficult as a a foreigner to find proper classes inbetween 'superbasic-just-say-hello-don't-worry-about-grammar' and 'today we'll talk about the pitfalls of bog-cotton growing and the effects on the economy in central Africa through the modh foshuiteach", but hey...)

enda1 wrote: »

Probably when its resigned to its position as a regional minority language and remove in importance from the constitution.

The fact that its pushed down our throats for 15 years, adds bureaucratic effort to public bodies, is an exam solicitors in Ireland must pass (really in order to say in Irish - "I don't speak Irish, how about I give you the contact details of a colleague of mine who does?), takes up space on warning and road signs disturbing the message and making them harder to grasp quickly etc. etc.

Two points:
1 - As stated before, someone saying they prefer another language or have found another langauge more useful, is NOT bashing Irish. Stop being so defensive. Witrh the excpetion of Enda1 above, theer has been very little Irish bashing on this thread.

2 - Being Irish and preferring another langauge does not make you any less "Irish" or "important". At the end of the day, it' is not a massively widespread langauge and has very few monolingual speakers, that some people don't have the passion for. Not a crime.

Cú Giobach · 16-02-2011 05:14PM

enda1 wrote: »

takes up space on warning and road signs disturbing the message and making them harder to grasp quickly etc. etc.

Wow!! The Swiss, Belgians, Welsh..... and all the other countries that have bi-linguial road signage would be most interested in your theory, have you done a thesis on it, I would love to read your findings.

Krusader · 16-02-2011 05:18PM

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Wow!! The Swiss, Belgians, Welsh..... and all the other countries that have bi-linguial road signage would be most interested in your theory, have you done a thesis on it, I would love to read your findings.

Not to mention roadsides are of an international standard and therefore it's the sign that is important not the writing underneath it, isn't that why they show you the signs when you're doing your test and you have to tell the tester what they mean

enda1 · 16-02-2011 05:31PM

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Wow!! The Swiss, Belgians, Welsh..... and all the other countries that have bi-linguial road signage would be most interested in your theory, have you done a thesis on it, I would love to read your findings.

I live in Belgium actually and its a similar problem here.

Can one not express an opinion without having written a thesis?
Though I'd think its quite obvious that warning labels and directions should be as simple and said in as few words as possible.

Plus they call out in 4 languages on some services the information meaning things get really confusing.

You try drive from Brussels to Mons without getting a tad confused.

Also there was some talk of Irish having confused those motorists who got hit by the train yesterday.

And our road signs don't exactly conform to international standards. Just look at the state of our "Left turn only" sign. In any other country (sane) it would mean the opposite.

Cú Giobach · 16-02-2011 05:32PM

Crosáidí wrote: »

Not to mention roadsides are of an international standard and therefore it's the sign that is important not the writing underneath it, isn't that why they show you the signs when you're doing your test and you have to tell the tester what they mean

I wonder how many accidents must be caused by signs like this..
Arrggg.......do I stop or go??...ah...ah...oh! I Stop (i think).

orourkeda · 16-02-2011 05:33PM

polish

Scuid Mhór · 16-02-2011 05:37PM

you can't compare them. both are good for their own special reasons.

Cú Giobach · 16-02-2011 05:44PM

enda1 wrote: »

I live in Belgium actually and its a similar problem here.

Can one not express an opinion without having written a thesis?
Though I'd think its quite obvious that warning labels and directions should be as simple and said in as few words as possible.

Plus they call out in 4 languages on some services the information meaning things get really confusing.

You try drive from Brussels to Mons without getting a tad confused.

.

Because of the sheer number of languages in Europe most Europeans are used to this. What would you do or expect regarding announcements in a place where people speak different languages and don't all speak or understand the same one.

Also there was some talk of Irish having confused those motorists who got hit by the train yesterday.

Where?

And our road signs don't exactly conform to international standards. Just look at the state of our "Left turn only" sign. In any other country (sane) it would mean the opposite

Are you stating that this in other countries would mean "no left turn" because from what I have seen either a diagonal line or an X over the arrow would be required to give it that meaning practically anywhere in the world.

enda1 · 16-02-2011 05:48PM

Cú Giobach wrote: »

I wonder how many accidents must be caused by signs like this..
Arrggg.......do I stop or go??...ah...ah...oh! I Stop (i think).

That kinda nicely confirms my feelings about the Irish language.
The artificial and nonsensical support of a language through actions like you highlighted is laughable and could only be thought up by politicians.

In mono-lingual France they use the stop sign with just STOP written on it.

Its only in Quebec that they use that ridiculous sign. The fact they feel that English only/mono-lingual signs somehow attack their other language is sad. It is in the interest of safety/clarity and ease for tourists and natives alike to use just one language, and English at that.

enda1 · 16-02-2011 05:54PM

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Because of the sheer number of languages in Europe most Europeans are used to this. What would you do or expect regarding announcements in a place where people speak different languages and don't all speak or understand the same one.

Its an inconvenience and just cause you are used to it, doesn't make it ideal.

Unfortunately its necessary where the citizens and visitors alike would not understand, but in a country such as Ireland, the opposite is the case. Everyone understands English and adding this inconvenience and distraction is not necessary and is regressive behaviour.

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Where?

The NI couple, somewhere in Galway I think.

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Are you stating that this in other countries would mean "no left turn" because from what I have seen either a diagonal line or an X over the arrow would be required to give it that meaning practically anywhere in the world.

"Don't do this" signs are usually black typeface, white background and red circle.

"Do this" signs are usually blue background white typeface.

Ireland got awfully confused in its signs and they've confused people before.

Krusader · 16-02-2011 05:59PM

enda1 wrote: »

That kinda nicely confirms my feelings about the Irish language.
The artificial and nonsensical support of a language through actions like you highlighted is laughable and could only be thought up by politicians.

In mono-lingual France they use the stop sign with just STOP written on it.

Its only in Quebec that they use that ridiculous sign. The fact they feel that English only/mono-lingual signs somehow attack their other language is sad. It is in the interest of safety/clarity and ease for tourists and natives alike to use just one language, and English at that.

A stop sign written in French and English confirms waht about Irish...????

France isn't mono-lingual state, there's Breton, Basque and Occitanian speakers who live there, though Liberte, Fraternate Egalite does not apply to there languages.

How is that sign not clear ina nyway, if you can't understamd it, you shouldn't be driving

enda1 · 16-02-2011 06:12PM

Crosáidí wrote: »

A stop sign written in French and English confirms waht about Irish...????

France isn't mono-lingual state, there's Breton, Basque and Occitanian speakers who live there, though Liberte, Fraternate Egalite does not apply to there languages.

How is that sign not clear ina nyway, if you can't understamd it, you shouldn't be driving

Thanks for ignoring everything I said and making nonsensical accusations...

I didn't introduce the stop sign as a back up to my point, your colleague in crusade did. The analogy was made whether you understand it or not. Analogies are a linguistic method of making comparison. I'm not sure however if they penetrated the fast-paced and dynamic Irish literary circle yet.

France is a mono-lingual state. Just because people who speak other languages live there doesn not make it a multi-lingual state. There would need to be acceptance and accommodation for the use of these languages on the national level before I were to believe you.

Of course I understand the left turn only sign - I passed my test in Ireland.
HOWEVER, it doesn't not make logical sense as it follows the PROHIBITORY signage pattern.

It should mean "left turn prohibited".

Cú Giobach · 16-02-2011 06:14PM

enda1 wrote: »

That kinda nicely confirms my feelings about the Irish language.
The artificial and nonsensical support of a language through actions like you highlighted is laughable and could only be thought up by politicians.

In mono-lingual France they use the stop sign with just STOP written on it.

Its only in Quebec that they use that ridiculous sign. The fact they feel that English only/mono-lingual signs somehow attack their other language is sad. It is in the interest of safety/clarity and ease for tourists and natives alike to use just one language, and English at that.

A bi-lingual city having bi-lingual signs is nonsensical and ridiculous.
To be honest I don't know what to say to that it is such a nonsensical and ridiculous comment.
If you think that sign I showed was unclear or unsafe I would recommend a visit here

.

Its an inconvenience and just cause you are used to it, doesn't make it ideal.
Unfortunately its necessary where the citizens and visitors alike would not understand, but in a country such as Ireland, the opposite is the case. Everyone understands English and adding this inconvenience and distraction is not necessary and is regressive behaviour.

Unfortunately it's necessary?
Linguistic diversity is actually a wonderful thing.
Again I ask you (regarding announcements) What would you do to alleviate this inconvenience?
Fact is there is more than one language on this planet and you will just have to live with that, no matter how much it annoys you.

The NI couple, somewhere in Galway I think.

I meant who is doing the talking?
Your postmans fathers friend or who?

Cú Giobach · 16-02-2011 06:20PM

enda1 wrote: »

France is a mono-lingual state. Just because people who speak other languages live there doesn not make it a multi-lingual state. There would need to be acceptance and accommodation for the use of these languages on the national level before I were to believe you.

What? You don't believe in Breton.
It's not like religion or something, there is actual proof that the Breton language is and has been spoken in Britanny for quite some time and as far as I know Britanny is in France.

enda1 · 16-02-2011 06:25PM

Cú Giobach wrote: »

What? You don't believe in Breton.
It's not like religion or something, there is actual proof that the Breton language is and has been spoken in Britanny for quite some time and as far as I know Britanny is in France.

I've spent some time there yes.

Breton can not be used on a national level in France. Like I said. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt in misunderstanding me, but I thought what I said was quite clear.

enda1 · 16-02-2011 06:32PM

Cú Giobach wrote: »

A bi-lingual city having bi-lingual signs is nonsensical and ridiculous.
To be honest I don't know what to say to that it is such a nonsensical and ridiculous comment.
If you think that sign I showed was unclear or unsafe I would recommend a visit here

I never that this example was unclear.

I said it was laughable seeing as even France puts STOP in English on their signs. Its an anti-move by the Quebecois not a positive thing to include the French. Its a way to try push down English.

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Unfortunately it's necessary?
Linguistic diversity is actually a wonderful thing.
Again I ask you (regarding announcements) What would you do to alleviate this inconvenience?
Fact is there is more than one language on this planet and you will just have to live with that, no matter how much it annoys you.

It doesn't annoy me that there is linguistic diversity. Please stop putting words in my mouth. In fact I spend 6 hours a week in French class and chose Irish in this poll! The multitude of languages in the world is nice, though when living abroad, at times it can present as a pain in the ass like in the example I mentioned.

I just think that Ireland's attitude towards its own traditional language is killing it. It needs to go back to the people and be allowed to grow (or die) naturally. It shouldn't be forced on people nor given such prominence in society when, let's face it, its not very important.

Cú Giobach wrote: »

I meant who is doing the talking?
Your postmans fathers friend or who?

Sorry. Its something I read on boards actually. Didn't check the papers yet.

Cú Giobach · 16-02-2011 06:34PM

enda1 wrote: »

I've spent some time there yes.

Breton can not be used on a national level in France. Like I said. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt in misunderstanding me, but I thought what I said was quite clear.

Just because a language is limited in area (as nearly all languages are) does not mean a country is mono-linguial.
French is only spoken in part of Belgium, Flemish in another, Breton is only spoken in a part of France and the fact that it is, means France is not mono-lingual (irrespective of the status given it by the French government).

enda1 · 16-02-2011 06:37PM

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Just because a language is limited in area (as nearly all languages are) does not mean a country is mono-linguial.
French is only spoken in part of Belgium, Flemish in another, Breton is only spoken in a part of France and the fact that it is, means France is not mono-lingual (irrespective of the status given it by the French government).

French, Dutch and German are the official of Belgium.
Even though far more people speak English and Turkish than German that is.

From the founding of the French state till the present time, French has been at the heart of the French identity and IS the only language of the French Republic. http://www.assemblee-nationale.fr/english/8ab.asp

Please try to pick better examples.

Krusader · 16-02-2011 06:39PM

enda1 wrote: »

French, Dutch and German are the official of Belgium.
Even though far more people speak English and Turkish than German that is.

From the founding of the French state till the present time, French has been at the heart of the French identity and IS the only language of the French Republic. http://www.assemblee-nationale.fr/english/8ab.asp

Please try to pick better examples.

Other languages have exsisted alongside French in what is now France for millenia/centuries, look it up

Irish or Latin?

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