Irish or Latin?

GLaDOS · 16-02-2011 12:54AM

Latin would be more usful, I'd rather be able to speak Irish from a cultural point of view though.

Wibbs · 16-02-2011 12:54AM

phasers wrote: »

Mandarin

Meh this is one trotted out a lot, but I dunno phasers. It's lauded as one of the most widely spoken languages and that's true but only among Chinese people. It's not like Spanish or English or French or Arabic, that are spoken by many millions up to billions of people who arent actually Spanish or English or French or Arabic if you see what I mean. It's not unlike the Chinese economic miracle itself, local and not transmissable across other cultures. No? name me one Chinese company off the top of your head. Not so easy?* For all the hype the vast majority of Chinese folks are on a bowl of rice a day cooked over a log fire. The last time the average Chinese person was on a par or better off per capita than the equivalent European was around the 9th century. The language is the same. Looks like a plan, but until Chinese cultural influence kicks off, not worth learning beyond an academic interest IMHO.

Pretty_Pistol wrote: »

All the people I know who took latin either failed it or found it very difficult. They were good at other languages.

Yea it's a right bastard of a language. Loadsa genders and all that bollocks IIRC from a loooong time ago in scoile. It's a very logical language. A bit lacking in blood and bone and more about crystalline thought. Even among the Romans most of the everyday people, the vulgus, spoke sermo(a?) vulgi, IE "vulgar" or common latin(or fell back on Greek). That's where we get the guts of the romance languages today, rather than classical latin. Then at one point the micks got involved and did what we do with language and started playing with it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiberno-Latin Sadly that didnt take off.

*Yet when Japan was mentioned in the 70's 80's and 90's and today, it would be easy to name 5 Japanese companies. That's why they're still there.

wolfpawnat · 16-02-2011 12:58AM

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

Which of these languages would it be better to be fluent in?

Studied both in school and went to an all-Irish speaking school for 5th and 6th year. Latin is great for scientific and language subjects. But I enjoyed Irish too.

u140acro3xs7dm · 16-02-2011 01:00AM

Wibbs wrote: »

Meh this is one trotted out a lot, but I dunno phasers. It's lauded as one of the most widely spoken languages and that's true but only among Chinese people. It's not like Spanish or English or French or Arabic, that are spoken by many millions up to billions of people who arent actually Spanish or English or French or Arabic if you see what I mean. It's not unlike the Chinese economic miracle itself, local and not transmissable across other cultures. No? name me one Chinese company off the top of your head. Not so easy?* For all the hype the vast majority of Chinese folks are on a bowl of rice a day cooked over a log fire. The last time the average Chinese person was on a par or better off per capita than the equivalent European was around the 9th century. The language is the same. Looks like a plan, but until Chinese cultural influence kicks off, not worth learning beyond an academic interest IMHO.

Yea it's a right bastard of a language. Loadsa genders and all that bollocks IIRC from a loooong time ago in scoile. It's a very logical language. A bit lacking in blood and bone and more about crystalline thought. Even among the Romans most of the everyday people, the vulgus, spoke sermo(a?) vulgi, IE "vulgar" or common latin(or fell back on Greek). That's where we get the guts of the romance languages today, rather than classical latin. Then at one point the micks got involved and did what we do with language and started playing with it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiberno-Latin Sadly that didnt take off.

*Yet when Japan was mentioned in the 70's 80's and 90's and today, it would be easy to name 5 Japanese companies. That's why they're still there.

Im no expert but china is the 2nd biggest economy in the world and growing. They are by far and away the biggest manufacturers in the world. If you spoke mandarin you could broker some good deals ahead of your competition.

Wibbs · 16-02-2011 01:04AM

foxinsox wrote: »

AH answer:

Your mater!!

Tua(o) mater!! IIRC

One of my faves is bibo ergo sum, I drink therefore I am. The philosophy of the sot.

St. Robbie · 16-02-2011 01:05AM

Irish

Krusader · 16-02-2011 01:07AM

B'fhearr liom Gaeilge a labhairt

darragh16 · 16-02-2011 01:09AM

Irish... Great to take the piss outta foreigners with it!

foxinsox · 16-02-2011 01:12AM

Wibbs wrote: »

Tua(o) mater!! IIRC

One of my faves is bibo ergo sum, I drink therefore I am. The philosophy of the sot.

You are right I'd say.. I couldn't remember what "your" was

it's been many many years ago ..

Wibbs · 16-02-2011 01:20AM

Raquel Gray Theater wrote: »

Im no expert but china is the 2nd biggest economy in the world and growing.

Yet the vast majority of Chinese people are far far below the western per capita worth.

They are by far and away the biggest manufacturers in the world.

Yes. At the moment. With an artificially controlled currency and dirt poor wages. IMHO you're looking at the biggest bubble in recent times since there was a catastrophic gas leak in the Wrigley factory. Look at the products. Each apple iphone nets the chinese company about 30-40 bucks, yet nets Apple in the US more than 400 bucks. To quote our American mates, "you do the maaath". Like I said name just one Chinese company with a world presence. Hell name just one Chinese company.

If you spoke mandarin you could broker some good deals ahead of your competition.

Maybe, maybe not Raquel Gray Theater. How many high end employees of the European and American companies who offload their manufacturing to China speak Mandarin? I'd say eff all. The attitude may more likely be "so long as they keep making our shít for eff all, they can spake martian for all we care".

Until Mandarin is a wanted and needed language outside the People's Republic, it's just a blip on the world language stage. Indeed it's very nature may preclude it from being much more than local influence. Yes it's ancient with a history going back millennia which is damned impressive, but that also suggests a culture being pickled. That was the case with China in the past. A land of great minds and sporadic innovation, but also quite stultifying tradition. They came up with moveable type printing(welll the Koreans did), but their alphabet/langauge is too damned long winded and complex, hence by the time Europeans gained access to the country they were still mostly transcribing literature by hand. Whereas in Europe within a generation of the printing press we were looking down the barrel of major industrial and scientific and moral and political and religious debate. Without the French, the Brits and especially the Germans in the 19th/early 20th century China wouldn't have had a rail or road network. They were quite the late medieval society until the turn of the 19th to 20th century. Short answer, I'll reserve judgement on China and on Mandarin.

policarp · 16-02-2011 01:21AM

Irish people should be able to speak Irish, and if they want, study Latin as well or any other language for that matter.

Cú Giobach · 16-02-2011 01:23AM

Latin? Non Gradus Anus Rodentum!
Gaeilge Abú.

Wibbs · 16-02-2011 01:34AM

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Latin? Non Gradus Anus Rodentum!
Gaeilge Abú.

One could say kinda similar of Irish. More speakers, yes but worldwide a latin base would have arguably more use as a background in one's linguistic bag. I was shíte at Latin in school, but it was enough to get me by in Spain, Italy and France. Well... enough to let me have a stab at a notion of what was going on. Unless I was in the Scottish Isles or the Isle of man with a local or at a real stretch a Cornish speaker Irish might give me some insight, but by comparison?

Though of late I have to say I am quite tempted to learn old Irish.

Barna77 · 16-02-2011 01:48AM

bluewolf wrote: »

latin if you ever want to learn any other romantic languages

Valentines day is well gone now...

... thank god for that

u140acro3xs7dm · 16-02-2011 01:54AM

Wibbs wrote: »

Yet the vast majority of Chinese people are far far below the western per capita worth.Yes. At the moment. With an artificially controlled currency and dirt poor wages. IMHO you're looking at the biggest bubble in recent times since there was a catastrophic gas leak in the Wrigley factory. Look at the products. Each apple iphone nets the chinese company about 30-40 bucks, yet nets Apple in the US more than 400 bucks. To quote our American mates, "you do the maaath". Like I said name just one Chinese company with a world presence. Hell name just one Chinese company. Maybe, maybe not ET_phone_home. How many high end employees of the European and American companies who offload their manufacturing to China speak Mandarin? I'd say eff all. The attitude may more likely be "so long as they keep making our shít for eff all, they can spake martian for all we care".

Until Mandarin is a wanted and needed language outside the People's Republic, it's just a blip on the world language stage. Indeed it's very nature may preclude it from being much more than local influence. Yes it's ancient with a history going back millennia which is damned impressive, but that also suggests a culture being pickled. That was the case with China in the past. A land of great minds and sporadic innovation, but also quite stultifying tradition. They came up with moveable type printing(welll the Koreans did), but their alphabet/langauge is too damned long winded and complex, hence by the time Europeans gained access to the country they were still mostly transcribing literature by hand. Whereas in Europe within a generation of the printing press we were looking down the barrel of major industrial and scientific and moral and political and religious debate. Without the French, the Brits and especially the Germans in the 19th/early 20th century China wouldn't have had a rail or road network. They were quite the late medieval society until the turn of the 19th to 20th century. Short answer, I'll reserve judgement on China and on Mandarin.

Well you are talking high end products, but if you wanted to be a self employed importer of certain goods it would be such a useful language. If you work in a huge corporation its as useless as Irish or Latin. As i say every person is different. Knowing a local language in Papua new Guinea might make someone millions but would be of no benefit to the rest of the world.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 16-02-2011 03:01AM

darragh16 wrote: »

Irish... Great to take the piss outta foreigners with it!

You can do that in latin!
"He who is called Roman goes in the house"!

Gaudizeit · 16-02-2011 05:05AM

Which is more useful, right now....Irish. There are jobs going with knowing this language. It's not a dead language. It's our first language.

Latin would not be useful right now. It may help me with learning another language, but that's learning 2 languages to get use out of the first one - latin.

Lumen · 16-02-2011 08:02AM

I studied Latin. I think its usefulness is overrated. Worth studying for curiosity value, but I'd rather be fluent in Italian, French, or German.

Irish has practical and cultural value. Not least of which is that if I'd studied it I'd have probably got my kids into a Gaelscoil.

As for Chinese, I'm not sure. Not everything of value in life is about making yourself more employable. Education is not training.

Cú Giobach · 16-02-2011 10:09AM

Wibbs wrote: »

One could say kinda similar of Irish. More speakers, yes but worldwide a latin base would have arguably more use as a background in one's linguistic bag. I was shíte at Latin in school, but it was enough to get me by in Spain, Italy and France. Well... enough to let me have a stab at a notion of what was going on. Unless I was in the Scottish Isles or the Isle of man with a local or at a real stretch a Cornish speaker Irish might give me some insight, but by comparison?

Choosing a language to learn would depend on where one will spend ones time, if you intend doing a lot of business in the far east Chinese would be a good option, South America Spanish or Portuguese, Tagalog in the Philippines and so on. Personally since I spend a lot of time traveling up and down the West coast of Ireland Irish is the most useful language for me (after English).

Though having Latin would indeed help with learning Spanish, Italian, Romanian etc unless you want to speak all the romance languages learning the particular one you are interested in or need would be a lot simpler and easier and also give you an insight into the others (not to mention it would actually be a living language).

Though of late I have to say I am quite tempted to learn old Irish

Go for it, and by default you will learn modern Irish which would open your eyes to beauty of this language and give you another view of your surroundings thus increasing the sum of your knowledge.
I'd say the biggest shock you would get would be hearing a person with what you would consider a "culchie" accent when speaking in English, speaking with a refined or even posh one in Irish (a refined accent in Irish is not an English one

).

pickarooney · 16-02-2011 10:11AM

Gaudizeit wrote: »

Which is more useful, right now....Irish. There are jobs going with knowing this language. It's not a dead language. It's our first language.

Latin would not be useful right now. It may help me with learning another language, but that's learning 2 languages to get use out of the first one - latin.

Exactly. I never understood this theory that learning one dead, complicated language would help you learn a living, less complicated one. Why not just learn the useful one directly and save yourself a lot of pointless hassle? Learning French would be a much better basis for understanding Spanish or Italian than Latin would, besides.

TheZohanS · 16-02-2011 10:18AM

Flashbacks of the Nauta tables...

Wibbs · 16-02-2011 10:55AM

Gaudizeit wrote: »

Which is more useful, right now....Irish. There are jobs going with knowing this language. It's not a dead language. It's our first language.

Jobs in teaching it mostly, or artificial reasons for it's requirement. As for the "our language" part, I don't agree. There is more than one tradition on this island and I'm not talking "west brits" either.

Latin would not be useful right now. It may help me with learning another language, but that's learning 2 languages to get use out of the first one - latin.

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Though having Latin would indeed help with learning Spanish, Italian, Romanian etc unless you want to speak all the romance languages learning the particular one you are interested in or need would be a lot simpler and easier and also give you an insight into the others (not to mention it would actually be a living language)

True I'd have to agree with you both on that score. It would be like a TEFL course using olde English of Chaucer

I'd say the biggest shock you would get would be hearing a person with what you would consider a "culchie" accent when speaking in English, speaking with a refined or even posh one in Irish (a refined accent in Irish is not an English one )

Not really shocking. After all it hasn't been an urban accent in centuries so a "refined" accent would have to be a rural one.

I like all Irish accents as a general thing(the Belfast accent grates mind you). It's one reason I can't abide the "Dort/D4/Mid atlantic*" accent. It's trying to cover up the fossil record of who you are. It shows great insecurity. Maybe not on the part of the current speakers, but most certainly of their parents and grandparents. Ireland had one of the highest number or elocution teachers in Europe. Just to stamp out the past. The results can be heard in the strangulation of Hiberno English(usually by women) and no doubt where present, in Gealgoiri nua.

*I can't abide that last accent. You're not some bint from the Hills(why would you want to be

), you're a thick hocked lass from Blackrock. Cop on.

Coriolanus · 16-02-2011 11:32AM

I'd have to go for Latin. Id love to be fluent in both but if I can have only one then I'll take reading the classics in their original thank you very much.

Cú Giobach · 16-02-2011 11:33AM

Wibbs wrote: »

Not really shocking. After all it hasn't been an urban accent in centuries so a "refined" accent would have to be a rural one.

I don't think you get the concept I'm getting at (apologies if I'm wrong).
It's nothing to do with rural or urban. (I'm still waiting to hear from you what the difference [linguistically] between a rural and urban language is, by the way).
A refined accent in the Irish language isn't an English one for the same reason a refined accent in the French language is't an English one, ie It's a different language.
English accented Irish sounds to the gaeilgeoir's ear like heavily accented English to yours. (and I don't mean English accented as in England, I mean of an English speaker be that Irish, American etc)

I've brought this up numerous times in life and am quite surprised at the number of people who never thought of it and there are some who can't even understand it.

16-02-2011 11:34AM

Is the irish language the new whipping boy on AH now?

Well trolled OP, well trolled.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 16-02-2011 11:41AM

Gaudizeit wrote: »

Which is more useful, right now....Irish. There are jobs going with knowing this language. It's not a dead language. It's our first language.

Latin would not be useful right now. It may help me with learning another language, but that's learning 2 languages to get use out of the first one - latin.

If we're going on usefulness, then German (as I live in Berlin!) or French. Or Chinese.

Most of the Gaelgiori (sp?) will have us know that the point of learning Irish is not it's usefulness, it's the cultural and heritage aspect of it. If we extend that to all languages, the there are several more practical languages to learn.

Wibbs · 16-02-2011 12:00PM

Nevore wrote: »

I'd have to go for Latin. Id love to be fluent in both but if I can have only one then I'll take reading the classics in their original thank you very much.

True though if you learn old Irish it has a huge chunk of classics of it's own. The first non classical language to do so actually. You woudnt have to read Peig for a start.:D

Cú Giobach wrote: »

It's nothing to do with rural or urban. (I'm still waiting to hear from you what the difference [linguistically] between a rural and urban language is, by the way).

It's pretty straightforward. A language is influenced by it's environment and that environment is reflected in the vocabulary of same. Although untrue the commonly held notion of Inuit languages having dozens of words for snow illustrates this. Over time Irish contracted in usage until it was in the mouths of largely uneducated rural people. The urban environment is by virtue of numbers and outside influences much more likely to be culturally more vigorous with a larger educated class(hence the word urbane). This will influence the language and it's vocabulary and it's sophistication. Irish hasn't been urban, nor urbane for that matter in centuries. Farming and on shore fishing and folk tales* OK, but it hasn't been the language of politics, higher education, science or philosophy for even longer than that.

A refined accent in the Irish language isn't an English one for the same reason a refined accent in the French language is't an English one, ie It's a different language.

Obviously.

English accented Irish sounds to the gaeilgeoir's ear like heavily accented English to yours.

In other words urban accented Irish. I don't have an English accent. I do have a Dublin accent however. So if I learn Irish, no matter how fluent I become I will sound like a foreigner to a "gaeilgeoir's ear" if I keep that accent? Unless I affect a "culchie" accent as Gaelige I'm not speaking it correctly? Id est the "culchie"/rural accent is correct Irish. Well done. You've just proven my point for me.

What about someone with an urban Galwegian or an urban Belfastard, or an urban Corkonian? Are their accents "Irish", or is just Dubliners being singled out? Or am I missing something?

*Nothing wrong with the folks tale tradition BTW. Without them it's likely Irish would have descended into the odd grunt.

Barna77 · 16-02-2011 12:06PM

TheZohan wrote: »

Flashbacks of the Nauta tables...

nauta
nautae
nautae
nautam
nauta
nauta

Hated the fúcking useless thing :mad:

Krusader · 16-02-2011 12:08PM

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

If we're going on usefulness, then German (as I live in Berlin!) or French. Or Chinese.

Most of the Gaelgiori (sp?) will have us know that the point of learning Irish is not it's usefulness, it's the cultural and heritage aspect of it. If we extend that to all languages, the there are several more practical languages to learn.

Irish is useful in Ireland, its use in the States and Canada is growing slightly

16-02-2011 12:17PM

Ugh this debate has been done to death already.

First it was Bank Run threads back in October.

Next it was whinging about the economy in November (that got so bad it was officially banned).

Next Fianna Fail & the government

Now, after a lull where AH became what it was supposed to be, it's the Irish language that's become the whipping boy.

Come on, The original post is just an excuse for the Irish bashers to come in and say "well I'd learn latin because blah blah blah derp derp derp kill the language kill the language kill the language."

It's old. We had the "start a new thread on a different aspect of a topic as an excuse to put up more whinging about it" on the economy. We all saw how that ended up.

Merge all the "keep the/ kill the Irish language" threads in one please.

Irish or Latin?

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