Its official : public sector pay per hour is 49% higher than private sector

Jaysoose · 09-02-2011 01:22PM

ardmacha wrote: »

Both these points are correct. Reform requires detailed assessment of the current situation. Three years later there is little data on which sectors had the increases in the boom or any reasonable basis for assessing whether existing provision is excessive or inadequate. The problem is that the management do not want proper assessment, they want to blame unions or somebody else rather than their own efforts or lack of them measured.

If I were the new government I'd publish the expenditure and numbers employed in every sub sector in (say) 2000 and 2010 and any basis for a change (e.g. more children in schools, or more patients treated).

The resistance to this process is the biggest obstacle we have, take for example portacabins being rented for years at a premium rate where buildings could have been erected for less than the cost of rent. Someone somewhere signed up to this kind of waste of money but nobody is taking responsibility. This is an insane way of doing business but then people are accused of public service bashing when all they want is some realism from gilmore/unions and the public servants themselves.

Nobody is demanding every public servant should have their pay cut but when money is walking out the door and nobody is prepared to admit that there is a massive issue it leaves very little room for anything else.

MagicSean · 09-02-2011 04:41PM

fliball123 wrote: »

I aggree here fraud should be investigated...but you have to remember a lot of people have only found themselves unemployed how do you think it will make them feel when the ps on an average of 40 odd k not sure what the figure was is not getting cut in the last budget or in the next few ...yet these have been cut down to just under 200 a week....The social welfare should be revamped..like the German system where it encourages people to work. But there are a lot of over paid people in the p.s aswell..Sorry if I took you up wrong...But on the statement of the money is not there..It really isnt we are over 100billion in debt and still over spending by 18 billion a year...even if we reduced this deficit completely we still have the debt to contend with along with the interest rate and this debt is both sovern and the banking debt...

I was perhaps being a little overly-pedantic with my original post.

I imagine it feels pretty bad to be on the dole knowing that someone in the public sector is earning 40k odd (a figure that is not true of the actual earnings) but no worse than seeing a banker on 500k or a shopkeeper on 25k. i dont see that as a reason to cut the wage though. That would be mere begrudgery. Let's also remember that the public sector recruitment was open to everyone but many in the private sector decided to stay there.

Jaysoose wrote: »

The resistance to this process is the biggest obstacle we have, take for example portacabins being rented for years at a premium rate where buildings could have been erected for less than the cost of rent. Someone somewhere signed up to this kind of waste of money but nobody is taking responsibility. This is an insane way of doing business but then people are accused of public service bashing when all they want is some realism from gilmore/unions and the public servants themselves.

Nobody is demanding every public servant should have their pay cut but when money is walking out the door and nobody is prepared to admit that there is a massive issue it leaves very little room for anything else.

The whole thing should be made public. It's the only way to bring about change. The lower level workers can all see the waste happening around them but have no way to prevent it as they have to abide by policy and procedure or be fired. Whereas those at the top have no idea of the waste at ground level so cannot address it. There isn't a proper system for bringing about change. Unless you count the unions, which I don't.

Jaysoose · 09-02-2011 10:30PM

k_mac wrote: »

I was perhaps being a little overly-pedantic with my original post.

I imagine it feels pretty bad to be on the dole knowing that someone in the public sector is earning 40k odd (a figure that is not true of the actual earnings) but no worse than seeing a banker on 500k or a shopkeeper on 25k. i dont see that as a reason to cut the wage though. That would be mere begrudgery. Let's also remember that the public sector recruitment was open to everyone but many in the private sector decided to stay there.

The whole thing should be made public. It's the only way to bring about change. The lower level workers can all see the waste happening around them but have no way to prevent it as they have to abide by policy and procedure or be fired. Whereas those at the top have no idea of the waste at ground level so cannot address it. There isn't a proper system for bringing about change. Unless you count the unions, which I don't.

While i agree it should be public im not buying your logic regarding low level workers not being able to do anything while managers iognore issues, your basically saying its nobodies fault while there clearly has to be somebody responsible.

n900guy · 09-02-2011 11:33PM

Jaysoose wrote: »

While i agree it should be public im not buying your logic regarding low level workers not being able to do anything while managers iognore issues, your basically saying its nobodies fault while there clearly has to be somebody responsible.

Maybe we should point the finger at the management consultants like Boston COnsulting, McKinsey, etc., for advising the managers incorrectly.

MagicSean · 09-02-2011 11:42PM

Jaysoose wrote: »

While i agree it should be public im not buying your logic regarding low level workers not being able to do anything while managers iognore issues, your basically saying its nobodies fault while there clearly has to be somebody responsible.

I'm saying there is no system in place for significant or productive change. I don't know whos fault that is.

thebman · 10-02-2011 02:57AM

n900guy wrote: »

Maybe we should point the finger at the management consultants like Boston COnsulting, McKinsey, etc., for advising the managers incorrectly.

No its just advice, managers can take advice from whoever they feel like but the ultimate decision and responsibility lies with the manger for the decision taken.

Anything else is an unworkable, moronic system TBH that encourages stupid behavior based on not thinking beyond requesting someone else to write a report for you. How many layers of report writing does it take before you can't even find anyone responsible.

Of course this is the issue ... ... Managers are responsible for the decisions they take whether they will admit it or acknowledge it or realised it the time is irrelevant. If bad decisions were made, get rid of the management. eventually they will learn to manage properly.

maninasia · 10-02-2011 09:16AM

Jaysoose wrote: »

I think this argument is being looked at purely from a job cuts POV, we need a root and branch investigation into were all the money goes across the whole organisation. We need to know who is spending what and on what then decide can we make this more efficient and ge better value for money. Then a process can take place to restructure how money is spend alongside cuts that can be justified from a Business persepective.

We've had a bunch of those reports through the years, wasn't their one done before the Croke Park Agreement..they always get thrown in the dustbin.

maninasia · 10-02-2011 09:18AM

n900guy wrote: »

Maybe we should point the finger at the management consultants like Boston COnsulting, McKinsey, etc., for advising the managers incorrectly.

That would be oohh so convenient...yet another 'other' to blame.

fliball123 · 10-02-2011 10:18AM

k_mac wrote: »

I was perhaps being a little overly-pedantic with my original post.

I imagine it feels pretty bad to be on the dole knowing that someone in the public sector is earning 40k odd (a figure that is not true of the actual earnings) but no worse than seeing a banker on 500k or a shopkeeper on 25k. i dont see that as a reason to cut the wage though. That would be mere begrudgery. Let's also remember that the public sector recruitment was open to everyone but many in the private sector decided to stay there.

The whole thing should be made public. It's the only way to bring about change. The lower level workers can all see the waste happening around them but have no way to prevent it as they have to abide by policy and procedure or be fired. Whereas those at the top have no idea of the waste at ground level so cannot address it. There isn't a proper system for bringing about change. Unless you count the unions, which I don't.

But Kmac do you not see the shrinking cash coming in from the private sector...Regardless of who went for what job. The private sector essentailly pay the wages....If the capacity to pay wages or other expenses in the norm means cuts....the Public sector can no longer be protected..As I say people who were working are leaving in their 1000s soon the only people left will be the ps. I aggree with the bankers and builders who have got away scot free

Jaysoose · 10-02-2011 10:19AM

maninasia wrote: »

We've had a bunch of those reports through the years, wasn't their one done before the Croke Park Agreement..they always get thrown in the dustbin.

Im not talking about the usual reports that are full of fantasy land figures, we need a genuine report about expenditure and providers of services and how much the PS is being charged and why.

Pharaoh1 · 10-02-2011 02:59PM

Jaysoose wrote: »

The resistance to this process is the biggest obstacle we have, take for example portacabins being rented for years at a premium rate where buildings could have been erected for less than the cost of rent. Someone somewhere signed up to this kind of waste of money but nobody is taking responsibility. This is an insane way of doing business but then people are accused of public service bashing when all they want is some realism from gilmore/unions and the public servants themselves.

Nobody is demanding every public servant should have their pay cut but when money is walking out the door and nobody is prepared to admit that there is a massive issue it leaves very little room for anything else.

The sad thing is that amid all the talk of reform none of the parties will address this core issue.
The small minority who cause huge waste or are grossly incompetent are effectively untouchable. It has been this way and will continue to be this way.
It is simply not possible for any organization to operate to its optimum while it envelopes itself in this straightjacket.

WalterMitty · 10-02-2011 10:46PM

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0207/pay.html

:mad:

Jaysoose · 11-02-2011 02:25PM

Pharaoh1 wrote: »

The sad thing is that amid all the talk of reform none of the parties will address this core issue.
The small minority who cause huge waste or are grossly incompetent are effectively untouchable. It has been this way and will continue to be this way.
It is simply not possible for any organization to operate to its optimum while it envelopes itself in this straightjacket.

So basically if the reforms promised are not delivered then the only avenue left is indiscrimate paycuts.

Or am i missing something how much longer can the state continue to spend the way it currently does.

RichardAnd · 11-02-2011 03:07PM

Jaysoose wrote: »

So basically if the reforms promised are not delivered then the only avenue left is indiscrimate paycuts.

Or am i missing something how much longer can the state continue to spend the way it currently does.

No, you're right. Either the Croke Park agreement delivers or cuts are made by someone else. It's my opinion that real savings are possibly without major pay cuts to most PS workers but I would be very surprised if the CP agreement will bring these about.

gigino · 12-02-2011 03:20PM

Pharaoh1 wrote: »

The sad thing is that amid all the talk of reform none of the parties will address this core issue.

I have to agree. The political parties are gathering votes from whoever they can, and they do not want to alienate one section of society. One political canvasser came to my door, we were talking about all the billions the government is squandering every month, and I asked him whats he / his party going to do about it...and then I asked " Do you really think the average public servant south of the border should be paid over TWENTY grand a year more than the average public sector worker in N. Ireland ?"
Poor fellow was speechless.

ardmacha · 12-02-2011 04:55PM

I suppose you didn't think of asking him whether he was going to do something about old age pensions and dole payments being twice those in NI, or university fees only being one third?

dfbemt · 12-02-2011 06:59PM

RichardAnd wrote: »

No, you're right. Either the Croke Park agreement delivers or cuts are made by someone else. It's my opinion that real savings are possibly without major pay cuts to most PS workers but I would be very surprised if the CP agreement will bring these about.

CP Agreement is already pushing these cuts with tight deadlines for implementation

- after hours call outs (water leaks, damaged housing, etc) for council staff were paid at 4 hours of double time, now being reduced to 2 hours.
- payments to retained firefighters are being reduced to per minute payments for all calls that last longer than 1 hour. Previously, some councils paid for the full hour, some paid per 15 minutes
- reduction in holidays so staff available more

These are all due in by April 2011 at latest.

sollar · 12-02-2011 07:35PM

There are thousands of people around the country picking up the work left behind by retirees. This is a significant feature of the croke park agreement and would not be happening if the croke park agreement was torn up.

galway2007 · 12-02-2011 08:45PM

Jaysoose wrote: »

So basically if the reforms promised are not delivered then the only avenue left is indiscrimate paycuts.

Or am i missing something how much longer can the state continue to spend the way it currently does.

This is what we told our union
1) Tell them to cut our pay by 10%
2) Tell them to stick the croke park deal and there reform up there ass
3) Tell them that all the reform we have done since 2001 (yes we have done massive reform) will no longer be part of our job description
4) Tell them we are no longer covering the work that was done by people that have left
The union rep was shocked but that is what is happing in my work place.
You can cut pay by 30 % but it will never deliver the saving that reform could and they know that
You can let 50k workers go but they just become unemployed and have to be supported by the state like the 450k private sector workers that are on the dole, some are even better off on the dole and will never work again

Gumbo · 12-02-2011 11:54PM

gigino wrote: »

Do you really think the average public servant south of the border should be paid over TWENTY grand a year more than the average public sector worker in N. Ireland ?"
Poor fellow was speechless.

did you ask him about the huge cost of living compared to NI in the South Jimmy/Japer/gigino/insert new name here for 2012?

gigino · 13-02-2011 12:45AM

ardmacha wrote: »

I suppose you didn't think of asking him whether he was going to do something about old age pensions and dole payments being twice those in NI

I did actually, as well as politicians pay and pensions.

Maybe if these areas of government expenditure were reduced to sensible international levels, taxes would not have to be newly introduced and / or increased ? Eg the taxes in N. I which make it so expensive for people living there e.g. residental property taxes, water charges, higher petrol / diesel taxes.

Much as I hate to admit it, if wages are double in this country, we cannot compete with exports, tourism etc. Why should some sectors get paid almost double at the expense of those who have to compete in the export / tourism markets etc? Time for people to put the good of the country ahead of their own selfish needs.

Jaysoose · 13-02-2011 09:08PM

galway2007 wrote: »

This is what we told our union
1) Tell them to cut our pay by 10%
2) Tell them to stick the croke park deal and there reform up there ass
3) Tell them that all the reform we have done since 2001 (yes we have done massive reform) will no longer be part of our job description
4) Tell them we are no longer covering the work that was done by people that have left
The union rep was shocked but that is what is happing in my work place.
You can cut pay by 30 % but it will never deliver the saving that reform could and they know that
You can let 50k workers go but they just become unemployed and have to be supported by the state like the 450k private sector workers that are on the dole, some are even better off on the dole and will never work again

Your attitude hurts my head. All around me in the private sector i see people working harder for less as they know the peilous situation the economy is in. They are trying to work more efficiently to garauntee that the business will exist next year.

Your basically saying you wont do any more than you presently do..and you want things to stay the same when its obvious thats not an option as the outgoing goverment has blown the budget.

And before people start talking about public service bashing im referring to this particular post and the attitude of entitlement within.

noodler · 13-02-2011 09:52PM

Jaysoose wrote: »

Your attitude hurts my head. All around me in the private sector i see people working harder for less as they know the peilous situation the economy is in. They are trying to work more efficiently to garauntee that the business will exist next year.

Your basically saying you wont do any more than you presently do..and you want things to stay the same when its obvious thats not an option as the outgoing goverment has blown the budget.

And before people start talking about public service bashing im referring to this particular post and the attitude of entitlement within.

It really is scary.

TonyMac · 14-02-2011 01:25AM

galway2007 wrote: »

You can let 50k workers go but they just become unemployed and have to be supported by the state

You are all supported by state and at more than the cost of the dole. I am sure that we can replace everyone in the public sector under the rank of assistant principle and replace them cheaper and better.

galway2007 wrote: »

some are even better off on the dole and will never work
again

No change there for the public sector

fliball123 · 14-02-2011 11:02AM

TonyMac wrote: »

You are all supported by state and at more than the cost of the dole. I am sure that we can replace everyone in the public sector under the rank of assistant principle and replace them cheaper and better.

No change there for the public sector

I think the winds of change are afoot we have never had so much general public will to cut the fat from the ps...Also the people on the dole need to be seriously looked at I heard from my own sister in law that she is better off only working 2 days instead of the 5 day week. Now this is probably taking in crech fees into consideration. The gov needs to incentivise work..IE giving working mams better tax breaks. Tax breaks for creches...instead of a lazy ass professional mam getting everything and not working..Incentivise people. The PS are at present pressing the self destruct button for themselves as they are incapable of change IMO. but proof is in the pudding come Sept if they have not made the aggreed savings the chainsaw will be taken out

Cian92 · 14-02-2011 11:10AM

Jaysoose wrote: »

Your attitude hurts my head. All around me in the private sector i see people working harder for less as they know the peilous situation the economy is in. They are trying to work more efficiently to garauntee that the business will exist next year.

This really annoys me the private sector work harder than the public sector crap. My parents work in the Public service and I work part time in the private sector. I can guarantee you my parents work way harder, I was actually shocked at how lazy my colleagues were and their attitude to work. There is a very high rate of absenteesim, people consistently failing to meet targets etc... It was the exact same in my other job.

Im a student so only work there part-time but still that is the general attitude.

fliball123 · 14-02-2011 11:20AM

Cian92 wrote: »

This really annoys me the private sector work harder than the public sector crap. My parents work in the Public service and I work part time in the private sector. I can guarantee you my parents work way harder, I was actually shocked at how lazy my colleagues were and their attitude to work. There is a very high rate of absenteesim, people consistently failing to meet targets etc... It was the exact same in my

other job.

Im a student so only work there part-time but still that is the general attitude.

I dont think anyone is saying the private is harder working..The fact of the matter is that if a lazy person is in the private sector they will only get a limited time before they either get sacked, get a good telling off to improve after which they either improve or leave or if there are a lot of people dossing the company becomes unproductive and no longer spins a profit and defacto means the person is then made unemployed.

This is the real world and the ps can have so many people doing the same job or doing jobs badly. or inefficiently..IE paying an extra 50 quid to get your passport earlier...If they can get it to you earlier why arent they just getting it to you earlier...We pay enough taxes for it.

So we are borrowing 20billion a year...No company private sector wide could afford to pay the wages that the ps are on and continue with such a deficit..This has been the underlying idea that the private sector is trying to drive..but some are in lala land and do not accept it.

As for your absenteeism remark ps workers generally (not all) threat sick days as additional holidays ... but sure as I said in my last post proof is in the puddin...The ps have been told they need to cut ths sh1te out and they have till sept otherwise there will be a big cut and they only have themselves and their unions to blame if they dont reach their targets

Jaysoose · 14-02-2011 01:06PM

Cian92 wrote: »

This really annoys me the private sector work harder than the public sector crap. My parents work in the Public service and I work part time in the private sector. I can guarantee you my parents work way harder, I was actually shocked at how lazy my colleagues were and their attitude to work. There is a very high rate of absenteesim, people consistently failing to meet targets etc... It was the exact same in my other job.

Im a student so only work there part-time but still that is the general attitude.

Why did you leave out this part of my post? I was talking about what i see in the private sector i never genralised about one working harder than the other as obviously there are bluffers and lazy people in both sectors. Read the post before you get annoyed it will save on your blood pressure and me having to reply to your post.

"And before people start talking about public service bashing im referring to this particular post and the attitude of entitlement within."

irishh_bob · 14-02-2011 01:08PM

kceire wrote: »

did you ask him about the huge cost of living compared to NI in the South Jimmy/Japer/gigino/insert new name here for 2012?

cost of living is the same for private sector workers as it is for public sector , cost of living arguement is a bit of a red herring , higher cost of living doesnt automatically correlate with high wages , wages in the usa are higher than in canada yet the cost of living is higher in canada , same with australa and new zealand , wages much higher in australia yet australia is very little more expensive than new zealand

Euroland · 15-02-2011 12:41PM

Japer wrote: »

According to the governments own statistics department, latest released figures show that public sector pay per hour is 49% higher than equivalent pay in the private sector.

www.cso.ie/releasespublications/documents/earnings/current/earnlabcosts.pdf

Three years in to a crisis, and the economy is still burdened with the overhead of having an overpaid and over-pensioned public sector ( both compared with the private sector and other public services abroad, including in comparison with our nearest neighbour ). When will we ever learn?

It should be the other way around (and in most of the countries it is the case), on average private salaries should be significantly (20-30%) higher than in the public sector, as private sector generates wealth, while public sector just diminishes our wealth and lives from the re-distribution of taxes paid by the private sector.

Usually public sector pays lower salaries, but gives more security over jobs, while private sector pays higher salaries, but gives less security over jobs.

Its official : public sector pay per hour is 49% higher than private sector

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