Should farmers pay rates on buildings?

yosemite_sam · 13-02-2011 11:41PM #1

There could be a lot of revenue raised by rating farm buildings, they are in business so they should be liable as any other enterprise is?

later12 · 14-02-2011 09:14AM

Should the county council sweep their yards and remove their waste?

RichardAnd · 14-02-2011 09:15AM

Most farmers I know built their own buildings at their own expence on their own land. I see no argument nor reason as to why they should pay anything for them after that.

Tipp Man · 14-02-2011 09:28AM

More to the point are any businesses paying rates getting any value for money??

The level of rates in some councils is extorinate and must surely be a prohibitive factor to business succeding.

Should there be any rates at all??

BeeDI · 14-02-2011 10:56AM

yosemite_sam wrote: »

There could be a lot of revenue raised by rating farm buildings, they are in business so they should be liable as any other enterprise is?

If they did pay rates on their buildings (even though the county councils provide no services to the same buildings as they do on the high street), do you think the consumer would be happy to see the additional cost added to food in the shops:(

ei.sdraob · 14-02-2011 11:56AM

Tipp Man wrote: »

More to the point are any businesses paying rates getting any value for money??

The level of rates in some councils is extorinate and must surely be a prohibitive factor to business succeding.

Should there be any rates at all??

I know several businesses struggling due to rates running into thousands here in Galway, its quite sad really since its yet another cost imposed on businesses with very little in return.

Sesshoumaru · 14-02-2011 12:28PM

ei.sdraob wrote: »

I know several businesses struggling due to rates running into thousands here in Galway, its quite sad really since its yet another cost imposed on businesses with very little in return.

I haven't walked all of Galway city, but down near the docks I've noticed the fibre MAN was put on the (wrong) side of the street with the least number of businesses. So if you wanted to get hooked up you most likely have to pay the council to dig a trench across the road. From what I've heard this was done intentionally as a means of making more money.

ei.sdraob · 14-02-2011 01:04PM

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

I haven't walked all of Galway city, but down near the docks I've noticed the fibre MAN was put on the (wrong) side of the street with the least number of businesses. So if you wanted to get hooked up you most likely have to pay the council to dig a trench across the road. From what I've heard this was done intentionally as a means of making more money.

Oh these are commercial shop business i am talking about, like small supermarket/shop about dozen employees each.

I gave up on even bothering running IT related business in Ireland, we send all our company equipment abroad where its up to 10x cheaper and better service especially when you require gigabits of quality bandwidth and redundant power. Next step for me is to setup sister company somewhere more business friendly, i am sick of bringing money into the country only to be bent over and robbed to pay for crazy government schemes and mistakes.

yosemite_sam · 14-02-2011 02:28PM

RichardAnd wrote: »

Most farmers I know built their own buildings at their own expence on their own land. I see no argument nor reason as to why they should pay anything for them after that.

Where do you think businesses get their buildings? the very same way. Farming is a commercial enterprise and should be subject to the same charges as any other business, I think billions could be raised from applying a rate to farm buildings

yosemite_sam · 14-02-2011 02:33PM

BeeDI wrote: »

If they did pay rates on their buildings (even though the county councils provide no services to the same buildings as they do on the high street), do you think the consumer would be happy to see the additional cost added to food in the shops:(

They have roads, water same as any other business. I do not understand you saying you get no services, as none of us get anything in return for our rates

mikemac · 14-02-2011 02:35PM

I don't know if commerical business pay for water separately or is it all included in rates.

All I can say is farms pay for water if it's the councils supply. And for every meter installed.
Which is fair enough I suppose

RichardAnd · 14-02-2011 02:36PM

yosemite_sam wrote: »

They have roads, water same as any other business. I do not understand you saying you get no services, as none of us get anything in return for our rates

And they also pay income tax like everyone else.

My comment on buildings was simple. If I have a farm and I decide to spend some money building a haybarn on my own land by myself (with some help), why should I be charged for that?

I shouldn't. Buisness thrives when every little aspect of it isn't subject to some sort of tax, rate or levy. What will get Ireland out of recession is less tax, not more. Sadly, that doesn't seem to be happening.

yosemite_sam · 14-02-2011 02:48PM

RichardAnd wrote: »

And they also pay income tax like everyone else.

My comment on buildings was simple. If I have a farm and I decide to spend some money building a haybarn on my own land by myself (with some help), why should I be charged for that?

I shouldn't. Buisness thrives when every little aspect of it isn't subject to some sort of tax, rate or levy. What will get Ireland out of recession is less tax, not more. Sadly, that doesn't seem to be happening.

You are not living in the real world, people in business do that all the time with no help. You are under the impression that your enterprise is more important than everyone elses.

yosemite_sam · 14-02-2011 02:50PM

feelingstressed wrote: »

I don't know if commerical business pay for water separately or is it all included in rates.

All I can say is farms pay for water if it's the councils supply. And for every meter installed.
Which is fair enough I suppose

Water charges are seperate, I could not comment on whether or not farmers pay any water charges

yosemite_sam · 14-02-2011 02:54PM

later10 wrote: »

Should the county council sweep their yards and remove their waste?

When was the last time you saw a county council worker sweeping a shop floor or removing business waste for free?

RichardAnd · 14-02-2011 02:55PM

yosemite_sam wrote: »

You are not living in the real world, people in business do that all the time with no help. You are under the impression that your enterprise is more important than everyone elses.

If the real world is a place where free enterprise is squashed in favour of taxes and the state "dipping" into private wealth then yes, I am living in a dream world.

If a farmer pays his income taxm he should be left alone to run his buisness freely which will allow it to grow and when buisnesses grow they create jobs. That's what lifts a country out of recession, not finding new ways to squeeze blood from a stone.

paul71 · 14-02-2011 05:30PM

Where does the idea come from that rates create revenue, when the exact opposite is true. What is happening when rates are charged is money is taken out of the economy in (in the case of farmers it would mean milk, bread meat would be more expensive) and given to the most inefficient area of our society ie. government run services.

We don't need more government revenue, instead we need a more efficient performance from them on the amount they already receive.

yosemite_sam · 14-02-2011 08:17PM

RichardAnd wrote: »

If the real world is a place where free enterprise is squashed in favour of taxes and the state "dipping" into private wealth then yes, I am living in a dream world.

If a farmer pays his income taxm he should be left alone to run his buisness freely which will allow it to grow and when buisnesses grow they create jobs. That's what lifts a country out of recession, not finding new ways to squeeze blood from a stone.

I pay income tax, rates and employ people. Why are farmers treated differently than me, they should pay their way same as the rest of us

yosemite_sam · 14-02-2011 08:19PM

paul71 wrote: »

Where does the idea come from that rates create revenue, when the exact opposite is true. What is happening when rates are charged is money is taken out of the economy in (in the case of farmers it would mean milk, bread meat would be more expensive) and given to the most inefficient area of our society ie. government run services.

We don't need more government revenue, instead we need a more efficient performance from them on the amount they already receive.

You cannot have one rule for one and another for everyone else, everyone in business must pay their way

paul71 · 14-02-2011 08:22PM

yosemite_sam wrote: »

I pay income tax, rates and employ people. Why are farmers treated differently than me, they should pay their way same as the rest of us

Farmers pay income tax and employ people too, you receive services for the rates you pay. I don't see street lights or people cleaning footpaths outside farms.

I agree commercial rates are a serious drain on business but I would think you should be more concerned with getting increased value for the rates you pay then asking people who don't receive any services from the council to pay rates.

later12 · 14-02-2011 08:26PM

yosemite_sam wrote: »

When was the last time you saw a county council worker sweeping a shop floor or removing business waste for free?

What I'm getting at is that while I don't see any good reason why council should be charged rates, it does in theory contribute to services provided by local authorities such as BID and street cleaning and so on. Farmers generally don't have guys from the local authority maintaining their water supply and keeping their environs orderly with sufficient parking, drainage cleaning and so on; they do that themselves.

In any case, I don't really see a valid reason as to why farmers should be taxed further. Your only argument seems to be that you are taxed, therefore everybody else should be taxed too. Perhaps you ought to be making the case that commercial rates should be abolished or severely lowered and then maybe more people might agree with you.

By the way, farmers have paid rates in the past but won a legal challenge against such charges on the basis of land valuations back in the 1970s. However they do pay agricultural water charges, which can be significant.

yosemite_sam · 14-02-2011 08:28PM

paul71 wrote: »

Farmers pay income tax and employ people too, you receive services for the rates you pay. I don't see street lights or people cleaning footpaths outside farms.

I agree commercial rates are a serious drain on business but I would think you should be more concerned with getting increased value for the rates you pay then asking people who don't receive any services from the council to pay rates.

There are roads going to farms, they have water supplied. They should be rated as well, I cannot see any valid reason why they are not contributing

paul71 · 14-02-2011 08:31PM

yosemite_sam wrote: »

There are roads going to farms, they have water supplied. They should be rated as well, I cannot see any valid reason why they are not contributing

Motor tax, and they do pay for water or more often provide their own.

later12 · 14-02-2011 08:37PM

yosemite_sam wrote: »

There are roads going to farms, they have water supplied.

Only on public roads that everybody uses. Private roads, which are quite typical, are not maintained by the local authority. My parents spent thousands on their own road resurfacing over recent years. It is a very regular cost incurred. as another poster mentioned, farmers already pay for water.

If farmers start paying rates then surely they should expect the same services as urban businesses expect from the local authority.

Onthe3rdDay · 14-02-2011 08:38PM

yosemite_sam wrote: »

There are roads going to farms, they have water supplied. They should be rated as well, I cannot see any valid reason why they are not contributing

It's this kind of attitude that's going to ruin this country, If you put rates on farmers many will just give up or go elsewhere. Some may be making a lot of money, but most of them are on a very low wage for very long hours, far more than 48 a week.

I don't think anyone would complain about paying more rates or taxes if there was some benefit but there isn't.

yosemite_sam · 14-02-2011 08:45PM

Onthe3rdDay wrote: »

It's this kind of attitude that's going to ruin this country, If you put rates on farmers many will just give up or go elsewhere. Some may be making a lot of money, but most of them are on a very low wage for very long hours, far more than 48 a week.

I don't think anyone would complain about paying more rates or taxes if there was some benefit but there isn't.

Ruin this country! There will be a property tax on every dwelling in this country, it is shoulder to the wheel time everyone will pay

mikemac · 14-02-2011 08:46PM

yosemite_sam wrote: »

, I could not comment on whether or not farmers pay any water charges

yosemite_sam wrote: »

There are roads going to farms, they have water supplied. They should be rated as well, I cannot see any valid reason why they are not contributing

Been pointed out by a few posters that farmers pay for water if they connect to the council supply.
But you bring it up a second time?

yosemite_sam · 14-02-2011 08:50PM

feelingstressed wrote: »

Been pointed out by a few posters that farmers pay for water if they connect to the council supply.
But you bring it up a second time?

I can only tell you what I pay 1400 euro plus what ever I use

whiteonion · 14-02-2011 08:55PM

Farmers get so much subsidies in this country. Farmers are very well taken care of in this country. They can bear to take more taxes. Remove ALL their subsidies or increase their taxes.

paul71 · 14-02-2011 08:58PM

yosemite_sam wrote: »

I can only tell you what I pay 1400 euro plus what ever I use

I understand that, and I agree with you that commercial rates are too high. We need to introduce metered domestic water rates to tackle this but the real point is that services should be paid for by those who benefit from them.

Farmers do not use the services of local councils except for some connected to the mains supply for water which they do pay for. They use roads but pay motor tax, and in fact farmers quite often maintain rural roads themselves more effectively then councils in terms of keeping them clear of fallen trees, gritting and maintaining verges ect.

later12 · 14-02-2011 08:58PM

I don't think anybody here is arguing the point about agricultural aid, which should be done away with to ensure a more productive and efficient agricultural industry EU-wide.

But the solution is not to tax farmers, who will invariably pass that charge onto the consumer, or onto businesses which buy and manufacture his product, those zapping wealth out of the economy. Bad idea.

Should farmers pay rates on buildings?

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