Should farmers pay rates on buildings?

yosemite_sam

There could be a lot of revenue raised by rating farm buildings, they are in business so they should be liable as any other enterprise is?

later12

Should the county council sweep their yards and remove their waste?

RichardAnd

Most farmers I know built their own buildings at their own expence on their own land. I see no argument nor reason as to why they should pay anything for them after that.

Tipp Man

More to the point are any businesses paying rates getting any value for money??

The level of rates in some councils is extorinate and must surely be a prohibitive factor to business succeding.

Should there be any rates at all??

BeeDI

yosemite_sam wrote: »

There could be a lot of revenue raised by rating farm buildings, they are in business so they should be liable as any other enterprise is?

If they did pay rates on their buildings (even though the county councils provide no services to the same buildings as they do on the high street), do you think the consumer would be happy to see the additional cost added to food in the shops:(

ei.sdraob

Tipp Man wrote: »

More to the point are any businesses paying rates getting any value for money??

The level of rates in some councils is extorinate and must surely be a prohibitive factor to business succeding.

Should there be any rates at all??

I know several businesses struggling due to rates running into thousands here in Galway, its quite sad really since its yet another cost imposed on businesses with very little in return.

Sesshoumaru

ei.sdraob wrote: »

I know several businesses struggling due to rates running into thousands here in Galway, its quite sad really since its yet another cost imposed on businesses with very little in return.

I haven't walked all of Galway city, but down near the docks I've noticed the fibre MAN was put on the (wrong) side of the street with the least number of businesses. So if you wanted to get hooked up you most likely have to pay the council to dig a trench across the road. From what I've heard this was done intentionally as a means of making more money.

ei.sdraob

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

I haven't walked all of Galway city, but down near the docks I've noticed the fibre MAN was put on the (wrong) side of the street with the least number of businesses. So if you wanted to get hooked up you most likely have to pay the council to dig a trench across the road. From what I've heard this was done intentionally as a means of making more money.

Oh these are commercial shop business i am talking about, like small supermarket/shop about dozen employees each.

I gave up on even bothering running IT related business in Ireland, we send all our company equipment abroad where its up to 10x cheaper and better service especially when you require gigabits of quality bandwidth and redundant power. Next step for me is to setup sister company somewhere more business friendly, i am sick of bringing money into the country only to be bent over and robbed to pay for crazy government schemes and mistakes.

yosemite_sam

RichardAnd wrote: »

Most farmers I know built their own buildings at their own expence on their own land. I see no argument nor reason as to why they should pay anything for them after that.

Where do you think businesses get their buildings? the very same way. Farming is a commercial enterprise and should be subject to the same charges as any other business, I think billions could be raised from applying a rate to farm buildings

yosemite_sam

BeeDI wrote: »

If they did pay rates on their buildings (even though the county councils provide no services to the same buildings as they do on the high street), do you think the consumer would be happy to see the additional cost added to food in the shops:(

They have roads, water same as any other business. I do not understand you saying you get no services, as none of us get anything in return for our rates

mikemac

I don't know if commerical business pay for water separately or is it all included in rates.

All I can say is farms pay for water if it's the councils supply. And for every meter installed.
Which is fair enough I suppose

RichardAnd

yosemite_sam wrote: »

They have roads, water same as any other business. I do not understand you saying you get no services, as none of us get anything in return for our rates

And they also pay income tax like everyone else.

My comment on buildings was simple. If I have a farm and I decide to spend some money building a haybarn on my own land by myself (with some help), why should I be charged for that?

I shouldn't. Buisness thrives when every little aspect of it isn't subject to some sort of tax, rate or levy. What will get Ireland out of recession is less tax, not more. Sadly, that doesn't seem to be happening.

yosemite_sam

RichardAnd wrote: »

And they also pay income tax like everyone else.

My comment on buildings was simple. If I have a farm and I decide to spend some money building a haybarn on my own land by myself (with some help), why should I be charged for that?

I shouldn't. Buisness thrives when every little aspect of it isn't subject to some sort of tax, rate or levy. What will get Ireland out of recession is less tax, not more. Sadly, that doesn't seem to be happening.

You are not living in the real world, people in business do that all the time with no help. You are under the impression that your enterprise is more important than everyone elses.

yosemite_sam

feelingstressed wrote: »

I don't know if commerical business pay for water separately or is it all included in rates.

All I can say is farms pay for water if it's the councils supply. And for every meter installed.
Which is fair enough I suppose

Water charges are seperate, I could not comment on whether or not farmers pay any water charges

yosemite_sam

later10 wrote: »

Should the county council sweep their yards and remove their waste?

When was the last time you saw a county council worker sweeping a shop floor or removing business waste for free?

RichardAnd

yosemite_sam wrote: »

You are not living in the real world, people in business do that all the time with no help. You are under the impression that your enterprise is more important than everyone elses.

If the real world is a place where free enterprise is squashed in favour of taxes and the state "dipping" into private wealth then yes, I am living in a dream world.

If a farmer pays his income taxm he should be left alone to run his buisness freely which will allow it to grow and when buisnesses grow they create jobs. That's what lifts a country out of recession, not finding new ways to squeeze blood from a stone.

paul71

Where does the idea come from that rates create revenue, when the exact opposite is true. What is happening when rates are charged is money is taken out of the economy in (in the case of farmers it would mean milk, bread meat would be more expensive) and given to the most inefficient area of our society ie. government run services.

We don't need more government revenue, instead we need a more efficient performance from them on the amount they already receive.

yosemite_sam

RichardAnd wrote: »

If the real world is a place where free enterprise is squashed in favour of taxes and the state "dipping" into private wealth then yes, I am living in a dream world.

If a farmer pays his income taxm he should be left alone to run his buisness freely which will allow it to grow and when buisnesses grow they create jobs. That's what lifts a country out of recession, not finding new ways to squeeze blood from a stone.

I pay income tax, rates and employ people. Why are farmers treated differently than me, they should pay their way same as the rest of us

yosemite_sam

paul71 wrote: »

Where does the idea come from that rates create revenue, when the exact opposite is true. What is happening when rates are charged is money is taken out of the economy in (in the case of farmers it would mean milk, bread meat would be more expensive) and given to the most inefficient area of our society ie. government run services.

We don't need more government revenue, instead we need a more efficient performance from them on the amount they already receive.

You cannot have one rule for one and another for everyone else, everyone in business must pay their way

paul71

yosemite_sam wrote: »

I pay income tax, rates and employ people. Why are farmers treated differently than me, they should pay their way same as the rest of us

Farmers pay income tax and employ people too, you receive services for the rates you pay. I don't see street lights or people cleaning footpaths outside farms.

I agree commercial rates are a serious drain on business but I would think you should be more concerned with getting increased value for the rates you pay then asking people who don't receive any services from the council to pay rates.

later12

yosemite_sam wrote: »

When was the last time you saw a county council worker sweeping a shop floor or removing business waste for free?

What I'm getting at is that while I don't see any good reason why council should be charged rates, it does in theory contribute to services provided by local authorities such as BID and street cleaning and so on. Farmers generally don't have guys from the local authority maintaining their water supply and keeping their environs orderly with sufficient parking, drainage cleaning and so on; they do that themselves.

In any case, I don't really see a valid reason as to why farmers should be taxed further. Your only argument seems to be that you are taxed, therefore everybody else should be taxed too. Perhaps you ought to be making the case that commercial rates should be abolished or severely lowered and then maybe more people might agree with you.

By the way, farmers have paid rates in the past but won a legal challenge against such charges on the basis of land valuations back in the 1970s. However they do pay agricultural water charges, which can be significant.

yosemite_sam

paul71 wrote: »

Farmers pay income tax and employ people too, you receive services for the rates you pay. I don't see street lights or people cleaning footpaths outside farms.

I agree commercial rates are a serious drain on business but I would think you should be more concerned with getting increased value for the rates you pay then asking people who don't receive any services from the council to pay rates.

There are roads going to farms, they have water supplied. They should be rated as well, I cannot see any valid reason why they are not contributing

paul71

yosemite_sam wrote: »

There are roads going to farms, they have water supplied. They should be rated as well, I cannot see any valid reason why they are not contributing

Motor tax, and they do pay for water or more often provide their own.

later12

yosemite_sam wrote: »

There are roads going to farms, they have water supplied.

Only on public roads that everybody uses. Private roads, which are quite typical, are not maintained by the local authority. My parents spent thousands on their own road resurfacing over recent years. It is a very regular cost incurred. as another poster mentioned, farmers already pay for water.

If farmers start paying rates then surely they should expect the same services as urban businesses expect from the local authority.

Onthe3rdDay

yosemite_sam wrote: »

There are roads going to farms, they have water supplied. They should be rated as well, I cannot see any valid reason why they are not contributing

It's this kind of attitude that's going to ruin this country, If you put rates on farmers many will just give up or go elsewhere. Some may be making a lot of money, but most of them are on a very low wage for very long hours, far more than 48 a week.

I don't think anyone would complain about paying more rates or taxes if there was some benefit but there isn't.

yosemite_sam

Onthe3rdDay wrote: »

It's this kind of attitude that's going to ruin this country, If you put rates on farmers many will just give up or go elsewhere. Some may be making a lot of money, but most of them are on a very low wage for very long hours, far more than 48 a week.

I don't think anyone would complain about paying more rates or taxes if there was some benefit but there isn't.

Ruin this country! There will be a property tax on every dwelling in this country, it is shoulder to the wheel time everyone will pay

mikemac

yosemite_sam wrote: »

, I could not comment on whether or not farmers pay any water charges

yosemite_sam wrote: »

There are roads going to farms, they have water supplied. They should be rated as well, I cannot see any valid reason why they are not contributing

Been pointed out by a few posters that farmers pay for water if they connect to the council supply.
But you bring it up a second time?

yosemite_sam

feelingstressed wrote: »

Been pointed out by a few posters that farmers pay for water if they connect to the council supply.
But you bring it up a second time?

I can only tell you what I pay 1400 euro plus what ever I use

whiteonion

Farmers get so much subsidies in this country. Farmers are very well taken care of in this country. They can bear to take more taxes. Remove ALL their subsidies or increase their taxes.

paul71

yosemite_sam wrote: »

I can only tell you what I pay 1400 euro plus what ever I use

I understand that, and I agree with you that commercial rates are too high. We need to introduce metered domestic water rates to tackle this but the real point is that services should be paid for by those who benefit from them.

Farmers do not use the services of local councils except for some connected to the mains supply for water which they do pay for. They use roads but pay motor tax, and in fact farmers quite often maintain rural roads themselves more effectively then councils in terms of keeping them clear of fallen trees, gritting and maintaining verges ect.

later12

I don't think anybody here is arguing the point about agricultural aid, which should be done away with to ensure a more productive and efficient agricultural industry EU-wide.

But the solution is not to tax farmers, who will invariably pass that charge onto the consumer, or onto businesses which buy and manufacture his product, those zapping wealth out of the economy. Bad idea.

paul71

whiteonion wrote: »

Farmers get so much subsidies in this country. Farmers are very well taken care of in this country. They can bear to take more taxes. Remove ALL their subsidies or increase their taxes.

Sheer fantasy. If it is such a gravy train why has employment in the sector fallen by 70% in the last 30 years.

daithi2011

yosemite_sam wrote: »

There could be a lot of revenue raised by rating farm buildings, they are in business so they should be liable as any other enterprise is?

Let me guess. You are not a farmer.

I wish this carry on of people appearing and asking for others to be taxed more would stop.

I propose a levy on people using cartoon character names on the internet.

If you're so worried about raising revenue then why dont you volunteer an extra 10% tax to revenue from your own earnings.

yosemite_sam

daithi2011 wrote: »

Let me guess. You are not a farmer.

I wish this carry on of people appearing and asking for others to be taxed more would stop.

I propose a levy on people using cartoon character names on the internet.

If you're so worried about raising revenue then why dont you volunteer an extra 10% tax to revenue from your own earnings.

I pay twelve thousand euro to my local authority every year, if everyone paid their fair share I'd pay less nothing wrong with that

paul71

yosemite_sam wrote: »

I pay twelve thousand euro to my local authority every year, if everyone paid their fair share I'd pay less nothing wrong with that

Already said it I agree with you on commercail rates they are subsidising the other users of local authority services but these other users are domestic residences not farmers.

Any society that is serious about creating and maintaining wealth and employment must operate on the principle that the user pays. Otherwise businesses (farms are businesses) end up paying for services they don't use and jobs and wealth creation goes out the window.

Sticky_Fingers

yosemite_sam wrote: »

I pay twelve thousand euro to my local authority every year, if everyone paid their fair share I'd pay less nothing wrong with that

Would you be willing to reduce your prices if farmers paid rates and your costs were reduced or would you pocket the money as profit?

paul71

Sticky_Fingers wrote: »

Would you be willing to reduce your prices if farmers paid rates and your costs were reduced or would you pocket the money as profit?

Thats a little harsh on the guy sticky, everyone in business is entitled to profit if they weren't there would be no incentive to go into business and create employment. We cannot assume anyone here is guilty of or would consider sharp practice, I feel that the poster is making a valid point on the cost of rates to business but misdirecting his ire onto another business community who are also struggling in the face of a caustic econimic climate to maintain wealth and employment.

Sticky_Fingers

paul71 wrote: »

Thats a little harsh on the guy sticky, everyone in business is entitled to profit if they weren't there would be no incentive to go into business and create employment. We cannot assume anyone here is guilty of or would consider sharp practice, I feel that the poster is making a valid point on the cost of rates to business but misdirecting his ire onto another business community who are also struggling in the face of a caustic econimic climate to maintain wealth and employment.

No it's not harsh, it's a valid question. I have no problem with people making a profit but as you pointed out not at the expense of dragging the livelihood of someone who is not in direct competition down.

If the OP has a problem with rates then s/he should organise with other businesses who are in the same area and pressure his/her local council to do something about it. I understand that this approach is unlikely to lead anywhere but it is better then stepping on someone else's throat in order to improve their own bottom line.

paul71

Ok, you and I are agreed on the principle but have a different style of presenting our point.

But lets say you manage to reach concensus with the poster, sometimes if you converge two groups with similar ideals but appear to have one fundemental sticking point a united front is more likely to acheive results in terms of acheiving a goal. Businesses in towns and farmers and not that different, both trying to make a livinbg as self employed, if farmers lobbied on behalf of Commercial bussiness to reduce the costs of rates they could become allies on other farming issues.

Fussgangerzone

The average farmers income about 2 months ago anyway, was found to be €17,500. So even if you could charge rates on buildings, it would be claimed back from tax, I'd imagine.

Fussgangerzone

whiteonion wrote: »

Farmers get so much subsidies in this country. Farmers are very well taken care of in this country. They can bear to take more taxes. Remove ALL their subsidies or increase their taxes.

No they don't. No they aren't. No they can't. No.

When you work 7 days a week for €17k and can raise a family on it, you can afford to talk. In the meantime, sorry but no.

http://www.farmersjournal.ie/site/farming-Farm-Assist-claimants-up-30-10221.html

Tipp Man

OP You are attacking this from completly the wrong angle. Rates are an absolute robbery on business and I sympatise with you completly but instead of trying to get more people to pay you should be trying to get better value for money from your council - it should be obvious to everybody that councils are wasting hundred of millions each year through inefficiency and just plain stupidity. Thats where you should focus your anger

Now with regards to farmers paying rates well here are a couple of reason why they shouldn't:

1) water: the provision of water should be paid for. Now I can say with nearly absolute certainty that 90% of farmers in Tipperary are on a metered water supply. So they are paying for what they use. Do you have any idea how much water a cow drinks in a day?? How much water it takes to wash a milking parlour to meet the standards set?? Let me tell you huge volumes - so as a result farmers are boring their own wells, nearly every (non tillage) farmer in my locality has a well. If they were to pay for metered water it would break them. For the record these wells are being installed at their own cost - anything from 2.5k upwards so why should they pay rates for water they're not getting from the council??

2) roads: Farmers pay road tax the same as everybody else. What you don't realise is that a lot of farmers are actually paying to have their roads tarred by the councils. For example I live at the end of a short road (dead end but still a public road) with 1 other farmer. The road was in a shocking state but to get it fixed we had to split the bill between us - 10k each or else it would stay in s##t, the council weren't going to fix it. Fair enough we paid 10k each and didn't complain but don't have the down right audacity to try to charge us rates when we paid to tar a public road

3) Street lighting Bins etc - can't remember the last time i saw a street light (paid by the council) on a farm - can you?? With regards to bins we pay our local private bin company the same as most citizens in our locality

4) Roadside maintainence - it has probably escaped your attention but when is the last time you saw the council do their job and actually cut the roadside hedges - especially on non national road. You'll be thinking back a long time as it is now a farmers responsibility to maintain the hedges. The councils neatly passed this cost directly over to farmers. And before you complain about the hedges not being cut, farmers are not allowed to cut them before September 1st and face huge fines if they do (can't win)

So I fail to see given above, how you then expect farmers to pay rates when they aren't using any of the services relating to rates

yosemite_sam

Sticky_Fingers wrote: »

Would you be willing to reduce your prices if farmers paid rates and your costs were reduced or would you pocket the money as profit?

Profit would be nice, I have not seen a profit in a couple of years but my costs are pretty much still the same.

BeeDI

yosemite_sam wrote: »

They have roads, water same as any other business. I do not understand you saying you get no services, as none of us get anything in return for our rates

We have roads yes! Bad ones.
As farmers we have been made responsible for cutting the growth and bushes along the roads where our land reaches the roads. I had to spend €600 last year on this. I dont own a single square inch of property along the roadside:mad::mad::mad:. What business owner in town has to do that?

Public lighting!! I have none. I have to provide my own.

Winter gritting. I have none.

Public sewer. I have none. Had to install my own treatment plant. €7500.
Have to have an annual maintenance contract. Cost €250 pa! :mad: