Are Travellers a Separate Ethnic Group?

Rabble Rabble · 09-02-2011 07:58PM

RGDATA! wrote: »

As far as I understand the definition of an ethnic group I can't see any reason why they wouldn't qualify as one. 24 'no' votes, but nobody has explained why yet. The question wasn't whether you like travellers or not.

That definition of ethnic group could apply to a class, or region, which is what Travellers share with Dublin 4 or Cork.

An ethnic group (or ethnicity) is a group of people whose members identify with each other,

Identify with each other? Like Dublin 4? Or Corkonians?

through a common heritage, often consisting of a common language,

Traveller's supposed language is English with a few bits added in, and boss appended at the end. . The actual indigenous language of Ireland is irish.

a common culture (often including a shared religion)

The shared religion is Catholicism, like the most of the country, the common culture is no more unique than that shared by other classes, or regional groups ( and all of these groups intermarry at a higher frequency than they out-marry).

and an ideology that stresses common ancestry or endogamy.

As with Cork, or Dublin 4, or the Windsors. If we stick with endogamy why aren't the windors and ethnic group.

A very loose definition of Ethnic groups there. Travellers are no more an ethnic group than people from Cork. Interesing the way the Orwellian mind of Political Correctness argues both that race does not exist and that Travellers are a separate race. Oppose either view and it's a thought crime.

Why should ethnic groups be defined by their own "beliefs" anyway. I can believe that I am an ethnic group of one, for all the good it does me. How about other eternal historical sources, English, Irish, or European: are there historical records referencing Travellers in as recent a time as, say, the 1500's. Its not like the concept of ethnic groups were unknown, the Welsh, Irish, English, and Scottish were seen ( and saw themselves) as separate groups. Nary a mention of travellers.

( Gypsies in Central Europe were recognised at that stage).

easyeason3 · 09-02-2011 07:59PM

storm2811 wrote: »

They have their own culture, way of life, traditions and language.

I personally don't view it quite like that but fair play to you for looking for the good in people.

Sheeps · 09-02-2011 08:01PM

I don't like travelers.

Eric Cartman · 09-02-2011 08:03PM

If you were called a scumbag would you want to live within the norms of this society. The society you champion creates these 'scumbags'. If you have no hope of getting employment, access to 3rd level education, poor health, oppressed women and a mortality rate akin to the 1940's would you not react against regular society.

Think of solutions. Here we have definitive minority culture that exists in Ireland. How can we allow them to integrate or live in harmony without upsetting the 'settled' community.

Think! rather than shouting scum.

Give us some ideas.

give them access to healthcare, education and other services we have, have the goverment employ a small task force to liaze with the travellers , but only give them the services listed above If they agree to pay tax and stop committing crimes , its all very well and good saying they dont have access to schools and healthcare, maybee if they all registered for PPS numbers and paid tax then they would

MagicMarker · 09-02-2011 08:03PM

storm2811 wrote: »

They have their own culture, way of life, traditions and language.

In that case people from Tallaght are a separate ethnic group.

storm2811 · 09-02-2011 08:06PM

bluewolf wrote: »

Being catholic and dressing funny?
Do they really have an actual full on language or just slang

Eh, their own traditions and way of life? The way they celebrate births,christenings,weddings and funerals.The way they spend their time, how they act, how they see things, their attitudes to women(even if I don't agree with them), their work, etc etc
I think it used to be a full language but it's not used much anymore.

easyeason3 wrote: »

I personally don't view it quite like that but fair play to you for looking for the good in people.

I used to be good friends with a traveller and her and her cousins and sisters were nice, then again there are some who are dicks too, the same with any community/group/race/whatever.

09-02-2011 08:06PM

storm2811 wrote: »

Eh, their own traditions and way of life? The way they celebrate births,christenings,weddings and funerals.The way they spend their time, how they act, how they see things, their attitudes to women(even if I don't agree with them),

...being catholic?
Like the rest of the country?
That doesnt make a separate ethnic group

storm2811 · 09-02-2011 08:08PM

MagicMarker wrote: »

In that case people from Tallaght are a separate ethnic group.

How?

storm2811 · 09-02-2011 08:08PM

bluewolf wrote: »

...being catholic?
Like the rest of the country?
That doesnt make a separate ethnic group

I don't get why you keep mentioning their religion?

MagicMarker · 09-02-2011 08:09PM

storm2811 wrote: »

How?

Eh, their own traditions and way of life? The way they celebrate births,christenings,weddings and funerals.The way they spend their time, how they act, how they see things, their attitudes to women(even if I don't agree with them), their work, etc etc

Rawhead · 09-02-2011 08:09PM

Beaucoupfish wrote: »

So I couldn't care less if you are a traveller, a scum bag from Finglas or a ****e bag from Sligo, if you refuse to live within the norms of society then you don't deserve the perks of citizenship.

If you were called a scumbag would you want to live within the norms of this society. The society you champion creates these 'scumbags'. If you have no hope of getting employment, access to 3rd level education, poor health, oppressed women and a mortality rate akin to the 1940's would you not react against regular society.
[/QUOTE]

Who oppresses the women, who pulls the children out of school and refuses to let them get an education, who encourages arranged marriages among children, who tolerates child abuse and neglect and does not report it.

Don't give me that liberal bull**** you are spouting. Let travellers start addressing the issues that they control and society will honor its side of the agreement.

storm2811 · 09-02-2011 08:11PM

MagicMarker wrote: »

Eh, their own traditions and way of life? The way they celebrate births,christenings,weddings and funerals.The way they spend their time, how they act, how they see things, their attitudes to women(even if I don't agree with them), their work, etc etc

Haw haaaww.:pac:

Last time I checked people from Tallaght celebrate the above the same way we do.

arybvtcw0eolkf · 09-02-2011 08:11PM

bluewolf wrote: »

Do they really have an actual full on language or just slang

I think its called 'cant'..

Although I know a lot of travelers through training, I don't know any who can speak it.

I've no idea if their a separate ethnic group, IMO they're not.. But from my dealings with them they'll throw the ol' race card out there quicker than the best of 'em when the situation suits so they seem to be of the opinion that they are.

MagicMarker · 09-02-2011 08:13PM

storm2811 wrote: »

Haw haaaww.:pac:

Last time I checked people Tallaght celebrate the above the same way we do.

How do travelers celebrate them differently?

easyeason3 · 09-02-2011 08:14PM

storm2811 wrote: »

Eh, their own traditions and way of life? The way they celebrate births,christenings,weddings and funerals.The way they spend their time, how they act, how they see things, their attitudes to women(even if I don't agree with them), their work, etc etc
I think it used to be a full language but it's not used much anymore.

I used to be good friends with a traveller and her and her cousins and sisters were nice, then again there are some who are dicks too, the same with any community/group/race/whatever.

Yeah I've never had that experience. I won't say exactly how I feel about them but it's not good.

storm2811 · 09-02-2011 08:15PM

MagicMarker wrote: »

How do travelers celebrate them differently?

They have completely different traditions, I've never been to one but have heard about them from travellers, similar to ours but not the same.

09-02-2011 08:15PM

MagicMarker wrote: »

How do travelers celebrate them differently?

Dressing up badly

storm2811 · 09-02-2011 08:16PM

easyeason3 wrote: »

Yeah I've never had that experience. I won't say exactly how I feel about them but it's not good.

Fair enough, maybe try making friends with one though or something before you go judging the whole lot. Not meant to sound bitchy or anything,just saying!:P

mossyc123 · 09-02-2011 08:17PM

Yep.

Have their own traditions, culture, way of doing things.

Don't mix a whole lot with the rest of society which was until fairly recently homogenous.

Even the fact that they are referred to en masse as travellers exemplifies their seperation from the rest of society.

It has an impact on everything they do and every aspect of how they live their lives.

100% a seperate ethnic group IMO.

09-02-2011 08:19PM

mossyc123 wrote: »

Yep.

Have their own traditions, culture, way of doing things.

Don't mix a whole lot with the rest of society which was until fairly recently homogenous.

Even the fact that they are referred to en masse as travellers exemplifies their seperation from the rest of society.

It has an impact on everything they do and every aspect of how they live their lives.

100% a seperate ethnic group IMO.

Travelling a lot doesnt make you different ethnicity

easyeason3 · 09-02-2011 08:19PM

storm2811 wrote: »

Fair enough, maybe try making friends with one though or something before you go judging the whole lot.

No thanks.
I like that I still have a gate on my house, my lawnmower is still in the shed, my dog hasn't been stolen to bait fighting dogs, my house hasn't been cleaned out & that I don't have to listen to the usual sob stories of how they are discriminated against when they do very, very little to change the stereotype we are all used to.

So I'll sit here & judge all I want because I have enough friends already that don't come with as much baggage.

storm2811 · 09-02-2011 08:20PM

bluewolf wrote: »

Travelling a lot doesnt make you different ethnicity

Language, tradition, culture.

MagicMarker · 09-02-2011 08:20PM

bluewolf wrote: »

Dressing up badly

That seems to be the only discernible difference alright.

MagicMarker · 09-02-2011 08:21PM

storm2811 wrote: »

Language, tradition, culture.

Can you go into a little more detail?

storm2811 · 09-02-2011 08:22PM

MagicMarker wrote: »

Can you go into a little more detail?

I have.
Maybe try talk to some yourself.

MagicSean · 09-02-2011 08:22PM

storm2811 wrote: »

Yup.

An ethnic group (or ethnicity) is a group of people whose members identify with each other, through a common heritage, often consisting of a common language, a common culture (often including a shared religion) and an ideology that stresses common ancestry or endogamy.[1][2] [3]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_group

The problem is that they only loosely fit into this definition. The language consists of a bout 400 words. This could be said about people from the rougher parts of Limerick or Finglas. Their culture no longer exists for the most part. They do have a code of ethics which could be classed as a form of religion but the younger generation tend to ignore this. Many of them are settled and their travelling consists of one or two caravan holidays per year if at all. They may have been an ethnic group at one stage but all that defines them as this now is their ancestry.

mossyc123 · 09-02-2011 08:23PM

bluewolf wrote: »

Travelling a lot doesnt make you different ethnicity

"An ethnic group (or ethnicity) is a group of people whose members identify with each other, through a common heritage, often consisting of a common language, a common culture (often including a shared religion) and an ideology that stresses common ancestry or endogamy."

Nearly all of the above true of Travellers.

I think you are confusing race and ethnicity?

MagicMarker · 09-02-2011 08:35PM

storm2811 wrote: »

I have.
Maybe try talk to some yourself.

You haven't, you're just saying they're an ethic group because of their beliefs, traditions and culture. But I don't see any difference between their beliefs, traditions and culture other than the fact they live in caravans.

It would be great if you could specify exactly what makes them an ethnic group?

the_monkey · 09-02-2011 08:38PM

the groutch wrote: »

yes, I don't want to be in anyway associated with them, they're a seperate class of sub-human

Shame that this was red carded, a man speaks the truth and gets punished for it !!!

crazy

TheZohanS · 09-02-2011 08:42PM

mossyc123 wrote: »

"An ethnic group (or ethnicity) is a group of people whose members identify with each other, through a common heritage, often consisting of a common language, a common culture (often including a shared religion) and an ideology that stresses common ancestry or endogamy."

Nearly all of the above true of Travellers.

I think you are confusing race and ethnicity?

Nearly all of the above is true of Cork or Dublin people too.

Are Travellers a Separate Ethnic Group?

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