Looney left analysis

Wibbs · 09-02-2011 02:07PM

hoorsmelt wrote: »

Capitalism doesn't work. It doesn't work for the majority of the worlds population- over 1 billion people have no access to clean water, 925 million people are starving, and almost half the worlds population survives on less than $2.50 a day. In the privileged west where we enjoy higher standards of living thanks to the super-exploitation of the neo-colonial world, we still have extreme stratification of wealth and a real differential in living standards between those at the top and the poorest in society.

As for capitalism creating wealth, it hasn't been in a position to create new wealth for a long time now. During the 'boom', there was no increase in production, simply an extension of credit which allowed people to buy a greater share of the goods in circulation- the only increase in production was construction, and we all know the problems reliance on construction has caused. For this country to get back on its feet, socilaist policies and radical thinking are needed. One example of how this could work would be to set up state funded co-operatives on fallow land where formerly unemployed construction workers could produce food for a living. It's only on the basis of a thorough-going economic restructuring towards production and away from services that the economy will be able to provide a decent economically and environmentally sustainable lifestyle for everyone.

Sweet zombie Jesus. They are hippies. :eek: Collective farming hippies to boot. Yea great, a future where everything is knit your own muesli and bottle your own farts for natural gas and grey, very grey. Forget about owning anything either. That's theft you know.

Is mise le key · 09-02-2011 02:10PM

thebigbiffo wrote: »

as maggie said,
.

Who really gives a fu.ck what maggie said.

hoorsmelt · 09-02-2011 02:11PM

Wibbs wrote: »

Sweet zombie Jesus. They are hippies. :eek: Collective farming hippies to boot. Yea great, a future where everything is knit your own muesli and bottle your own farts for natural gas and grey, very grey. Forget about owning anything either. That's theft you know.

I mentioned farming for a reason: it may have escaped your notice but food prices are going through the roof and there are expected to be sugar shortages later on in the year. In this context we need to concentrate on providing for peoples basic needs in terms of food, energy and shelter, it doesn't imply a wish to return to the past. We can provide for such projects while investing in scinetific R&D.

Wibbs · 09-02-2011 02:11PM

Though the allotment notion like they have in other countries, inc our neighbour is a good idea.

RichieC · 09-02-2011 02:11PM

thebigbiffo wrote: »

capitalism works for the majority

Pure fantasy.

karma_ · 09-02-2011 02:13PM

Wibbs wrote: »

Sweet zombie Jesus. They are hippies. :eek: Collective farming hippies to boot. Yea great, a future where everything is knit your own muesli and bottle your own farts for natural gas and grey, very grey. Forget about owning anything either. That's theft you know.

Wibbs, I know you are an excellent poster and I respect that but I fear you are way off teh mark here. Capitalism has a track record of failure for the majority for many years now. It's not a stable system at all. It creates a bubble which eventually bursts then moves on to the next bubble. Yes some get rich off this scheme, but it's certainly not a majority. The thing I detest about this system is it requires losers, someone must get stung for those dollars to roll in, whether they be an investor, or some citizen of a third world country who has their resources stripped away.

Spudmonkey · 09-02-2011 02:21PM

hoorsmelt wrote: »

You need to remember that this is capitalism at its purest- bosses screwing enormous profits out of the country during the boom years, then using unemployment caused by the collapse of their property bubble as an excuse to cut wages and running to the capitalist state to bail out their system and take their losses for them.

Tin foil hat anyone??

I never liked the term looney left, more lazy left.

Bit of a generalization I know but when so many left wing politicians are willing to dump those who couldn't be bothered their arse in with those who might have lost their job. I fail to see why I should differentiate either.

karma_ · 09-02-2011 02:24PM

Spudmonkey wrote: »

Tin foil hat anyone??

I never liked the term looney left, more lazy left.

Bit of a generalization I know but when so many left wing politicians are willing to dump those who couldn't be bothered their arse in with those who might have lost their job. I fail to see why I should differentiate either.

Maybe we could set up extermination camps for the unemployed so? Tender it out to the highest bidder and make some cash.

Wibbs · 09-02-2011 02:25PM

hoorsmelt wrote: »

I mentioned farming for a reason: it may have escaped your notice but food prices are going through the roof and there are expected to be sugar shortages later on in the year. In this context we need to concentrate on providing for peoples basic needs in terms of food, energy and shelter, it doesn't imply a wish to return to the past. We can provide for such projects while investing in scinetific R&D.

OK How will you finance the R&D? Let's be practical here. I know it's rarely the more extreme left's strong suit. Let's change our farming policy. Then watch the EU get bolshie. If we started sugar beet production again which they effectively killed, watch them get even more bolshie. Much of the extreme left/shinners policies come from an anti EU angle. They would be happy to leave. Frankly they're... whats the technical term? Fcuking morons. Oh I am a major eurosceptic BTW. Well an EU sceptic. I liked the EEC, even the EC, but past Maastricht I get well dubious and have voted Nein ever since. If this notion had been floated back in the 70's then maybe, just maybe we could have forged ahead. Its a big bloody maybe though as the hippies would insist on "taxing the rich" and pumping up corporation tax and then it would be welcome to Cuba without the hot babes, blue seas and sun. Oh we may have been self sufficient but we would be making our own shoes.

The extreme left tends to be all well meaning adolescent pie in the sky stuff. Major throw baby out with the bathwater stuff. The extreme right while being equally dodgy, more so indeed, are generally more practical. Hence there have been way more of those societies in history than socialist ones.

Karma_ wrote:

Capitalism has a track record of failure for the majority for many years now. It's not a stable system at all. It creates a bubble which eventually bursts then moves on to the next bubble. Yes some get rich off this scheme, but it's certainly not a majority. The thing I detest about this system is it requires losers, someone must get stung for those dollars to roll in, whether they be an investor, or some citizen of a third world country who has their resources stripped away.

Cool, well show me a viable and practical alternative for us as a small island nation with quite small natural resources sitting off a capitalist continent in a capitalist world.

I agree many aspects of capitalism are well dodgy, but lets not throw the baby out with the bathwater here and go the other bloody way.

Spudmonkey · 09-02-2011 02:27PM

karma_ wrote: »

Maybe we could set up extermination camps for the unemployed so? Tender it out to the highest bidder and make some cash.

Now there's an idea..... :rolleyes:

Maybe looney was apt after all.

karma_ · 09-02-2011 02:32PM

Wibbs wrote: »

OK How will you finance the R&D? Let's be practical here. I know it's rarely the more extreme left's strong suit. Let's change our farming policy. Then watch the EU get bolshie. If we started sugar beet production again which they effectively killed, watch them get even more bolshie. Much of the extreme left/shinners policies come from an anti EU angle. They would be happy to leave. Frankly they're... whats the technical term? Fcuking morons. Oh I am a major eurosceptic BTW. Well an EU sceptic. I liked the EEC, even the EC, but past Maastricht I get well dubious and have voted Nein ever since. If this notion had been floated back in the 70's then maybe, just maybe we could have forged ahead. Its a big bloody maybe though as the hippies would insist on "taxing the rich" and pumping up corporation tax and then it would be welcome to Cuba without the hot babes, blue seas and sun. Oh we may have been self sufficient but we would be making our own shoes.

The extreme left tends to be all well meaning adolescent pie in the sky stuff. Major throw baby out with the bathwater stuff. The extreme right while being equally dodgy, more so indeed, are generally more practical. Hence there have been way more of those societies in history than socialist ones.

Cool, well show me a viable and practical alternative for us as a small island nation with quite small natural resources sitting off a capitalist continent in a capitalist world.

I agree many aspects of capitalism are well dodgy, but lets not throw the baby out with the bathwater here and go the other bloody way.

Why do you feel it necessary to jam a label on me? I'm not a hippy, ok I do like Canned heat but so what.

No one on the far left espouses a system of pure unadulterated socialism. The main aim is to create a system that is fair for everyone. It's not about having everyone paid the same, it's about being paid commensurately to the role you perform. No one could ever convince me that a banker at the top of the pile deserves an obscene amount of money, while a nurse or doctor gets considerably less.

Also, what is so wrong about making our own shoes?

brianthebard · 09-02-2011 02:33PM

Wibbs wrote: »

Bit early in the day to be drunk I would have thought? How do hippies overspending come within an asses roar* of the right wing? The retarded right might be more; "I did it myself, why can't the proles? Fcuk them"

Well then push the glass away or see your sponsor. What hippies overspent exactly? The Bert and the Biffo? Its easy to create wealth, its another thing to hold onto it, and the right in this country has proven itself incapable. Fyi I find your condescension pretty disgusting.

hoorsmelt · 09-02-2011 02:38PM

Wibbs wrote: »

OK How will you finance the R&D? Let's be practical here. I know it's rarely the more extreme left's strong suit. Let's change our farming policy. Then watch the EU get bolshie. If we started sugar beet production again which they effectively killed, watch them get even more bolshie. Much of the extreme left/shinners policies come from an anti EU angle. They would be happy to leave. Frankly they're... whats the technical term? Fcuking morons. Oh I am a major eurosceptic BTW. Well an EU sceptic. I liked the EEC, even the EC, but past Maastricht I get well dubious and have voted Nein ever since. If this notion had been floated back in the 70's then maybe, just maybe we could have forged ahead. Its a big bloody maybe though as the hippies would insist on "taxing the rich" and pumping up corporation tax and then it would be welcome to Cuba without the hot babes, blue seas and sun. Oh we may have been self sufficient but we would be making our own shoes.

There wouldn't be a problem with leaving the EU- at this stage, they'd be happy enough to get rid of us I think. And we'd be well capable of an alternative economic model to the current status quo- opening up to the multi-nationals and following EU directives hasn't exactly worked out too well now has it? Dell and others have upped sticks and left despite the risible corporation tax rate, EU directives have seen the ESB obliged to jack up prices to attract 'competition' into the market while we have lost rights to our fishing grounds. We could continue to trade with the EU if we left like Norway and Switzerland does, it wouldn't be an apocalyptic scenario. Indeed, if we were able to do some of the things I've proposed, it would be better off in the long run. Think outside the box mate.

The extreme left tends to be all well meaning adolescent pie in the sky stuff. Major throw baby out with the bathwater stuff. The extreme right while being equally dodgy, more so indeed, are generally more practical. Hence there have been way more of those societies in history than socialist ones.

Far-right societies are practical?? Maybe for factory owners and bankers but not for the ordinary workers who've been imprisoned, seen their wages decline and conditions worsen (as happened in Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy) as a result. Socialist societies tend to come under immediate attack from capitalism as we saw with the Russian Civil War (invasions of Russia by 18 imperialist powers including France, the US and UK), this is something which obviously limits the potential to create such a society and maintain it.

Cool, well show me a viable and practical alternative for us as a small island nation with quite small natural resources sitting off a capitalist continent in a capitalist world.

I agree many aspects of capitalism are well dodgy, but lets not throw the baby out with the bathwater here and go the other bloody way.

These are practical alternatives. It's not practical to base the future of an economy on service industries or letting 'market forces' take care of the future. If we were to do so, we'd never be done waiting for it to work. We shouldn't be afraid to try something new.

thebigbiffo · 09-02-2011 02:40PM

hoorsmelt wrote: »

Capitalism doesn't work. It doesn't work for the majority of the worlds population- over 1 billion people have no access to clean water, 925 million people are starving, and almost half the worlds population survives on less than $2.50 a day. In the privileged west where we enjoy higher standards of living thanks to the super-exploitation of the neo-colonial world, we still have extreme stratification of wealth and a real differential in living standards between those at the top and the poorest in society.

As for capitalism creating wealth, it hasn't been in a position to create new wealth for a long time now. During the 'boom', there was no increase in production, simply an extension of credit which allowed people to buy a greater share of the goods in circulation- the only increase in production was construction, and we all know the problems reliance on construction has caused. For this country to get back on its feet, socilaist policies and radical thinking are needed. One example of how this could work would be to set up state funded co-operatives on fallow land where formerly unemployed construction workers could produce food for a living. It's only on the basis of a thorough-going economic restructuring towards production and away from services that the economy will be able to provide a decent economically and environmentally sustainable lifestyle for everyone.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_farming#Soviet_Union

a find the bit on the 3+ million dead ukrainian's quite entertaining.

hoorsmelt · 09-02-2011 02:44PM

thebigbiffo wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_farming#Soviet_Union

a find the bit on the 3+ million dead ukrainian's quite entertaining.

I didn't suggest that people should be herded into a farm at gunpoint or have everything taken from them. To try and claim the Stalinist USSR and its collectives had anything to do with socialism is just plain wrong.

karma_ · 09-02-2011 02:45PM

thebigbiffo wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_farming#Soviet_Union

a find the bit on the 3+ million dead ukrainian's quite entertaining.

Get down off your ivory tower there and follow the conversation at least. No one wants a communist system, and a communist system is a million miles away from a co-operative enterprise.

Kasabian · 09-02-2011 02:49PM

hoorsmelt wrote: »

You need to remember that this is capitalism at its purest- bosses screwing enormous profits out of the country during the boom years, then using unemployment caused by the collapse of their property bubble as an excuse to cut wages and running to the capitalist state to bail out their system and take their losses for them.

I thought I got my sarcasm loaded post across.

Scanlas The 2nd · 09-02-2011 02:50PM

karma_ wrote: »

Why do you feel it necessary to jam a label on me? I'm not a hippy, ok I do like Canned heat but so what.

No one on the far left espouses a system of pure unadulterated socialism. The main aim is to create a system that is fair for everyone. It's not about having everyone paid the same, it's about being paid commensurately to the role you perform. No one could ever convince me that a banker at the top of the pile deserves an obscene amount of money, while a nurse or doctor gets considerably less.

Also, what is so wrong about making our own shoes?

Capitalism with some minimal government intervention to people to who really have no hope is the best of a bad bunch of options. Socialism is stupidity. No one forces people to be nurses.

You are basically saying people can't spend their money how they want. That's not a society I want to live in. If I want to spend 1 million euro for someone to wash my car then that's what I'll do, I don't care what someone else thinks the man washing my car deserves. That's the problem with these socialist thinking types. They don't think about the real practical consequences of their ideas. They are living in cuckoo land.

Pherekydes · 09-02-2011 02:51PM

Wibbs wrote: »

Bit early in the day to be drunk I would have thought?

Your avatar does you a disservice.

Wibbs wrote: »

OK How will you finance the R&D? Let's be practical here. I know it's rarely the more extreme left's strong suit. Let's change our farming policy. Then watch the EU get bolshie.

Don't you just love the way people use bolshie as a euphemism for communistic thinking. It actually means 'majority', something the right hates.

hoorsmelt · 09-02-2011 02:51PM

Kasabian wrote: »

I thought I got my sarcasm loaded post across.

thebigbiffo · 09-02-2011 02:55PM

hoorsmelt wrote: »

I didn't suggest that people should be herded into a farm at gunpoint or have everything taken from them. To try and claim the Stalinist USSR and its collectives had anything to do with socialism is just plain wrong.

karma_ wrote: »

Get down off your ivory tower there and follow the conversation at least. No one wants a communist system, and a communist system is a million miles away from a co-operative enterprise.

i'll point you both to my first post in this thread and how i was quoted and told how capitalism is not working for the majority - even so far as suggesting collective farming (which in essense is exactly what was suggested for out of work builders - like they'd have a f'uckin clue about farming - and would pose the exact same issues as the USSR/China had with it's similar initiatives).

is this it: you dont want communism, you dont want capitalism but you want strong socialism in the capitalist system? as far as i can see, you just want your cake and you want to eat it. you just cannot accept that capitalism is the best system we have because some people are poor...well i'm to to tell you people will always be poor, but at least capitalism gives people a way out - anything else just tells you your place (another hateful aspect of the left).

as far as i'm concerned, you are in fact a bunch of idealistic hippies.

Wibbs · 09-02-2011 02:57PM

karma_ wrote: »

Why do you feel it necessary to jam a label on me? I'm not a hippy, ok I do like Canned heat but so what.

There's no hope for ya

Also, what is so wrong about making our own shoes?

Unless its a hobby then for an individual its a bit hippie like to be fair.

brianthebard wrote: »

Well then push the glass away or see your sponsor. What hippies overspent exactly? The Bert and the Biffo? Its easy to create wealth, its another thing to hold onto it, and the right in this country has proven itself incapable. Fyi I find your condescension pretty disgusting.

Disgusting? sheesh the kids these days are fierce sensitive. Show me where the left have created wealth and sustained it. Anywhere will do.

karma_ · 09-02-2011 02:57PM

Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »

Capitalism with some minimal government intervention to people to who really have no hope is the best of a bad bunch of options. Socialism is stupidity. No one forces people to be nurses.

You are basically saying people can't spend their money how they want. That's not a society I want to live in. If I want to spend 1 million euro for someone to wash my car then that's what I'll do, I don't care what someone else thinks the man washing my car deserves. That's the problem with these socialist thinking types. They don't think about the real practical consequences of their ideas. They are living in cuckoo land.

No, I'm really not.

And what would we do without nurses? Or without someone getting minimum wage for washing your car, that you probably couldn't even look in the eye as you paid them.

Wibbs · 09-02-2011 02:59PM

Pherekydes wrote: »

Your avatar does you a disservice.

True.

Don't you just love the way people use bolshie as a euphemism for communistic thinking. It actually means 'majority', something the right hates.

I meant it in the sense of twitchy. Nada to do with the champagne/shinner/hippie talk as such.

Kasabian · 09-02-2011 02:59PM

hoorsmelt wrote: »

Don't be embarrassed comrade.

Degsy · 09-02-2011 03:01PM

brianthebard wrote: »

Well then push the glass away or see your sponsor. What hippies overspent exactly? .

The greens...a bunch of idealistic halfwits..all thier policies are shiite and anybody who voted for them is sorry now.

karma_ · 09-02-2011 03:01PM

Wibbs wrote: »

There's no hope for ya
Unless its a hobby then for an individual its a bit hippie like to be fair.

That's not what I was trying to say. Someone has to make shoes, in the capitalist system we get poor people in third world countries to spend long hours in crap conditions, earning pennies. That's not progressive, it's sheer greed and we have been conditioned to think it's what? Normal?

Scanlas The 2nd · 09-02-2011 03:04PM

karma_ wrote: »

No, I'm really not.

And what would we do without nurses? Or without someone getting minimum wage for washing your car, that you probably couldn't even look in the eye as you paid them.

Once again the penny hasn't dropped. You are not thinking about the consequences of paying people what you think they deserve. The economy would be a mess.

If there are set wages for various roles people work then you can't choose with your own money what to pay your employees.

If people stopped working as nurses the wages for them would rise and then we would have nurses. It's the best way and least wasteful way.

Why pay someone more than they are willing to do the job for, when that money could be going towards something else.

Look at the minimum wage for example, it's idealistic, but in reality it just causes more unemployment and misery by having it too high.

Kasabian · 09-02-2011 03:04PM

Degsy wrote: »

The greens...a bunch of idealistic halfwits..all thier policies are shiite and anybody who voted for them is sorry now.

For once I agree with you. Tax grabbing bunch of failures whose foundations as a movement were originally built on some good principles.

hoorsmelt · 09-02-2011 03:04PM

thebigbiffo wrote: »

i'll point you both to my first post in this thread and how i was quoted and told how capitalism is not working for the majority - even so far as suggesting collective farming (which in essense is exactly what was suggested for out of work builders - like they'd have a f'uckin clue about farming - and would pose the exact same issues as the USSR/China had with it's similar initiatives).

Alot of builders come from rural backgrounds so many of them would know the basics about farming. In any case, it's not too difficult to learn how.

is this it: you dont want communism, you dont want capitalism but you want strong socialism in the capitalist system? as far as i can see, you just want your cake and you want to eat it. you just cannot accept that capitalism is the best system we have because some people are poor...well i'm to to tell you people will always be poor, but at least capitalism gives people a way out - anything else just tells you your place (another hateful aspect of the left).

as far as i'm concerned, you are in fact a bunch of idealistic hippies

I don't know about the others, but I firmly believe that what's needed is democratic public ownership of the key levers of the economy. This doesn't translate to a desire to nationalise every deli in the country but those parts of the economy which are most important like communications, the largest producers, strategic industries etc. These need to be run with democratic input from the workers, and consumers, to find the best means of improving production and availability. It's idealistic to think that this system can be persevered with and that there will be better results from doing the same thing.

Looney left analysis

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