anyone here going to vote sinn féin?

3ndahalfof6 · 08-02-2011 06:19PM

If you listen to some of the top economist serious change is required, there is a lot of talk on the thread from some quarters about this,

considering how well FF FG LAB have done on economics I don't see the need to replace the outgoing government,

but the more I think about it if FG end up being the main party are we getting anything new considering FF and FG agree on a lot of things,

at one stage last night on the Frontline I taught they were going to get up and hug each other,

Do not be surprised if FF were to end up doing business with them after this election, I can see the statement now from FG,

On reflection FG has decided we have a lot more in common with FF than previously considered and this is why we think they would be the best party to work with us and get policies put through,

SF are the only ones proposing something new, yes they would be doing things differently, they will be in opposition and we can be sure the new government will have to answer.

Cal_Egle · 08-02-2011 06:22PM

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

I read it alright, no explanation as to who the NPRF can be used to pay for the deficit and a stimulus package when there is only enough in it to cover the deficit (SFs entire plan falls apart right there). Also, you failed to address the issue of how we will cover our deficit next year when we have no money of our own left and we cant go into the bond markets. Thanks for the apology btw, .

No probs on the aplogy, but i think the plan is a lot clearer than any of the other parties... it is an actual plan....

Tragedy · 08-02-2011 06:23PM

Cal_Egle wrote: »

Are you trying to be funny.... are you a FF/FG/Labour member?
I just pivot tabled the expenses on the first link you sent above... and only 1 SF member is on the list (Martin Ferris)... check it yourself...
He submitted expenses of 78k in that year. and i personally think he should explain that, even though he wasnt the worst offender....
I meant what i said... i am not a liar, and i dont spread disinformation, please chec your sources thoroughly before spreading your views as fact... sorry, either you cant add up your sums, or you are just lieing for one of the bigger parties (I am not sure which).
Row LabelsExpenses OnlySheehan P.J.87723.86Breen Pat87283.54Kenneally Brendan85078.16Ferris Martin78555.32Flynn Beverley77638.74Fahey Frank77349.21Cregan John77032.58Lowry Michael76783.99McCormack Padraic76642.19O'Keeffe Ned75706.27Allen Bernard75538.91McGrath Mattie75483.83Kenny Enda75464.98Dooley Timmy75149.09Perry John74810.13Moynihan Michael74677.17Hayes Tom74529.86Blaney Niall73767.23Fleming Sean73530.05O'Flynn Noel73099.31Healy-Rae Jackie72777.76

Are you alright? Every sitting TD is on that list. My figures are correct, so either you're blind or you're blind to be honest.

€535 is how much each individual SF TD claimed in Parliamentary Standard Allowance per day the Dáil sat in December for anyone interested.

fred252 · 08-02-2011 06:38PM

Cal_Egle wrote: »

I think i am going to die laughing ... Can i ask, what is scarier than having the IMF in Ireland after the most right wing government ran this country into insolvency and bankruptcy.... Are you saying this in jest ? How can any government be worse ? I remember at the last election, FG, Labour and FF were all out-bidding eachother on how little they could tax the workers... am i not right on this? SF were the only party telling the government and the people that the Housing Stamp duty could not be relied upon to sustain public spending and were asking the government to increase taxes in other areas.... Did anyone listn to them? No... they were ridiculed then .... as "Traitors" for talking down the housing bubble. Now this time around, SF are clearly stating that we will default on the mortgage that Ireland is being told to take out, because we cannot afford it... the other bigger parties diasagree ... even though every economist outside of Ireland (and some of our own like David McWillians) are being crytsal clear in saying that we cannot afford to take on Europes Bank debts as our own...
If SF got their way, and this is the very heart of what they want....
1) They would go to the EU, tell them we (Ireland) are not taking their money to pay for the banks ....
2) They will tell the EU, that the Banking debt in Ireland is Europes problem ... The Debt MUST be federalised, ie put into a Toxic bank in Europe, along with all the other countries that have these "Bad" debts.
3) Increase the Bank Tax rate for all the Banks in Europe to pay down this debt and take the burden off the Citizens of peripheral countries.

In reality, if this was done, we would not be asking the EU for 65billion.

We do have a problem with Fiscal overspending.... and Sinn Fein are right in this regard... we MUST cut the debt level down to < 3%, and we must do it quickly (over the next 3 years).
But if we got the initial banking issue addressed by getting the EU federal banking debt issue off our books, then think about this scenario ....

1) In 18 months time , we have cut our yearly spend by 4 billion... so we are only asking the bond market to lend us 14 billion to capitalise the country. We are not deflating the economy as much as FG/Labour/FF want to do ... we start to see growth again, because we have implemented stimulus projects (using our own National Pension reserve fund, which is currently going to be given to the EU to pay off the EU Federal Banking problem).
2) In 18 months, we have Genuine growth, our Tax income is genuinely rising (and not through PAYE or universal Service charge increases for anyone earning less than 100k per year)... People have confidence again to start spending a little (rather than squirelling away any savings they have)...
3) in 18 months, The bond market will react very very positively to us and lend us money at reasonable rates (approx 5%) which is still less than the 5.8% our friends in the EU want us to pay, and we will only be borrowing what we need... ie not borrowing to pay down the EU Federal banking debt. This will be the equivalent of not having to pay 3-5 billion in interest (INTEREST, you heard right, that is what FF/FG/Labour want us to pay, no bull*hit)...
4) With genuine growth and eliminating waste (SF have also stated that they would cut as many jobs from the Public sector as is considered surplus to requirements... (in truth, i would like to see more than the 2000 they are suggesting right now)... combined with Taxing the very wealthiest in our country by an extra 5% we will see the Tax increase improve again.... By the way, FF/FG have always maintained a system whereby the wealthiest in the country can avoid paying Tax... how the hell is this fair... FF/FG have a vested interest in maintaining this (and now so do Labour). Have you wondered how Labour intend paying back the 1 million Euro bank loan they have just taken out to pay for this election campaign???

Please, if you are undecided... read everything i have written in my last few blogs and try to see what is being done to us..... FF/FG/Labour are only out for themselves as political parties... they do not have our best interests at heart...

thanks for your lengthy post Cal_Egle.

i'm no expert on the economy and neither or you i guess (and neither is pearse doherty for that matter) but i assume some of the points you raise are debatable e.g. that in 18 months the bond markets will lend us money at approx 5%.

i do agree that the bank debt should somehow be decoupled from the national debt and i don't understand why SF are the only party that seem to advocate this...

isn't a lot of this academic anyway as the EU are meeting in march to come up with a solution for this debt issue?

howdydoodie · 08-02-2011 07:01PM

After watching frontline last night I think Sinn Fein would be the better option, when Pat Kenny asked Anthony Foley who would he rather see negotiating over in Europe, he said "Pearse Doherty" you have to admit that Sinn Fein have much experience in tough negotiating, Unionism, UK government etc. This IMF deal scares me, I can't see how our so called friends borrow around 2.3% from the same people we owe money too & then hit us with a 5.8% interest, it's profiteering, even closer to looting.

Chucky the tree · 08-02-2011 07:05PM

howdydoodie wrote: »

After watching frontline last night I think Sinn Fein would be the better option, when Pat Kenny asked Anthony Foley who would he rather see negotiating over in Europe, he said "Pearse Doherty" you have to admit that Sinn Fein have much experience in tough negotiating, Unionism, UK government etc. This IMF deal scares me, I can't see how our so called friends borrow around 2.3% from the same people we owe money too & then hit us with a 5.8% interest, it's profiteering, even closer to looting.

What's the point in having a good negotiator when SF refuse to negotiate the deal?

johnie89 · 08-02-2011 07:09PM

danbohan wrote: »

Imagine an Ireland with a left-wing government in power. Eamon Gilmore as our leader and David Norris as our President.

indeed , scary prospect actully

Why do you find it scary?

Chucky the tree · 08-02-2011 07:14PM

johnie89 wrote: »

Why do you find it scary?

Left-wing policies are one of the big reasons we are in this mess.

Pete_Cavan · 08-02-2011 07:20PM

howdydoodie wrote: »

After watching frontline last night I think Sinn Fein would be the better option, when Pat Kenny asked Anthony Foley who would he rather see negotiating over in Europe, he said "Pearse Doherty" you have to admit that Sinn Fein have much experience in tough negotiating, Unionism, UK government etc. This IMF deal scares me, I can't see how our so called friends borrow around 2.3% from the same people we owe money too & then hit us with a 5.8% interest, it's profiteering, even closer to looting.

Anthony Foley also said SFs figures dont add up and that the solution is not as simple as they think it is. He completely dismissed SF and their policy.

mccoist · 08-02-2011 07:24PM

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Left-wing policies are one of the big reasons we are in this mess.

we are in this mess not because of left wing policies ,more to do with right wing capitalism and a bunch of crooks called FF

KELTICKNIGHTT · 08-02-2011 07:27PM

mccoist wrote: »

we are in this mess not because of left wing policies ,more to do with right wing capitalism and a bunch of crooks called FF

AND SF WOULD DO BETTER,DONT THINK SO,WHEN THEY DONT HAVE REAL POLICY'S THAT WORK AND NEVER WILL

johnie89 · 08-02-2011 07:28PM

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Left-wing policies are one of the big reasons we are in this mess.

How have we had left wing policies when we've had a right wing government in power since 1937 (FG and FF are right wing parties FYI).

Also, is it left wing policy to saddle the country with the debit of foreign investors in an unchecked and improperly regulated banking system?

Bank debt should be separate from sovereign debt. Iceland like ourselves tried to take on its banks debts, the president refused to sign the bill, and the following referendum was voted 94% NO to taking on the debt... its because of a conservative right wing government that we are in the position we are in now.

Pete_Cavan · 08-02-2011 07:29PM

mccoist wrote: »

we are in this mess not because of left wing policies ,more to do with right wing capitalism and a bunch of crooks called FF

As I posted already today when another poster claimed our current crisis is as a result of right wing policies;

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

What right wing policies would they be then? Benchmarking public sector pay allowing wages to increase at a high rate than the rate of inflation and wage increases for all regardless of performance? Or was it constantly increasing the minimum wage to rates where Irish businesses can no longer compete and allowing the cost of living to spiral out of control? Or maybe increasing social welfare payments to among the highest in the EU? A lot of the policies pursued over the past 14 years under FF have been left wing.

And before you say it, letting banks fail would have been a right wing approach, the bailout was not a right wing policy.

johnie89 · 08-02-2011 07:31PM

On a side note can I just say I don't believe SF have the capacity to govern alone. They have never been given the chance. However I do believe that in a Labor led government, they would find some sense of balance and both parties would adopt the best of both policies.

mccoist · 08-02-2011 07:46PM

not accepting the first lisbon treaty vote
allowing foreign pwers to use air space
not listening to the electorate
allowing banks and financial institutions to run riot
maybe nor right wing but lets be fair
a right bunch of useless idiots
not an iota of sense how capitalism works as a political idea
and all the left wing politics were just greasing the palms of those who they needed to bribe to stay in power

SafeSurfer · 08-02-2011 07:46PM

sharkie66 wrote: »

The point is that Sinn Fein did achive what they set out to do
Really?

Have you ever asked yourself why poverty is higher in the north than down here?[/

Yes

Could it be that for the last God knows how long the Brits and their supporters ran the place into ruin with discrimination and apartheid while spending billions on a corrupt killer security service?

Wouldn't have anything to do with Sinn Fein policies?

More drivel from you and the hearsay facts you put up as links will never change the basic fact that a huge injustice was done to your fellow brothers and sister in the north of this country while you looked on sheepishly, never once denouncing the corrupt established bigoted parties which were in the business of protecting their cosy jobs and caring little for the citizens of a failed entity namely Norn Iron![/QUOTE]

You said in a previous post that the masses in the republic are living in poverty and we need Sinn Fein to be elected to change this.

I linked to reports showing that poverty in northern Ireland where Sinn Fein are in power is much higher than in the republic where they are not. Its not drivel or hearsay. You may think of it as heresy because these facts don't quite fit in with your beliefs but these are the facts .

KELTICKNIGHTT · 08-02-2011 07:52PM

listen too too sf rep 6.01 news and didnt say where they where getting the 16b euros too run the country as per normal except the pension fund which is need

Cal_Egle · 08-02-2011 08:07PM

KELTICKNIGHTT wrote: »

listen too too sf rep 6.01 news and didnt say where they where getting the 16b euros too run the country as per normal except the pension fund which is need

I saw the same interview, and none of the other parties volonteered where they were going to get the money to pay the EU loans... so who do you trust... a party that didnt screw up the economy, or the other crowd who are all singing from the same Hymn sheet and that have screwed up our country ....

Cal_Egle · 08-02-2011 08:11PM

SafeSurfer wrote: »

sharkie66 wrote: »

The point is that Sinn Fein did achive what they set out to do
Really?

Have you ever asked yourself why poverty is higher in the north than down here?[/

Yes

Could it be that for the last God knows how long the Brits and their supporters ran the place into ruin with discrimination and apartheid while spending billions on a corrupt killer security service?

Wouldn't have anything to do with Sinn Fein policies?

More drivel from you and the hearsay facts you put up as links will never change the basic fact that a huge injustice was done to your fellow brothers and sister in the north of this country while you looked on sheepishly, never once denouncing the corrupt established bigoted parties which were in the business of protecting their cosy jobs and caring little for the citizens of a failed entity namely Norn Iron![/QUOTE]

You said in a previous post that the masses in the republic are living in poverty and we need Sinn Fein to be elected to change this.

I linked to reports showing that poverty in northern Ireland where Sinn Fein are in power is much higher than in the republic where they are not. Its not drivel or hearsay. You may think of it as heresy because these facts don't quite fit in with your beliefs but these are the facts .

Haa haa ... you are blaming Sinn Fein for having a lower poverty level than in the south.... 1) They have a much better health service than we do .... 2) They cant raise any taxes in the North , not allowed to by the British government ... 3) Their public services are much better in the North
4) The British government refused to build a proper road infrastructure in the North, even after the good friday agreement.... as they know that they would be building that infrastructure for a Republic (once unification happens, and that is still years away).....

Pete_Cavan · 08-02-2011 08:15PM

Cal_Egle wrote: »

I saw the same interview, and none of the other parties volonteered where they were going to get the money to pay the EU loans... so who do you trust... a party that didnt screw up the economy, or the other crowd who are all singing from the same Hymn sheet and that have screwed up our country ....

We borrow from the bond markets to pay back the EU/IMF. The interest rate has been set such that once we get the deficit under control we will be able to borrow from the bond markets at a lower rate of interest than the bailout. With the bailout money we have four years to get our house in order and then we can continue trading like a normal country.

How do SF plan to pay for gardai, nurses, social welfare, state pensions, etc. next year when they have spent the NPRF and cant borrow from the bond markets? I have asked that question about 5 times now and still no SF supporter has been able to answer.

KELTICKNIGHTT · 08-02-2011 08:26PM

Cal_Egle wrote: »

I saw the same interview, and none of the other parties volonteered where they were going to get the money to pay the EU loans... so who do you trust... a party that didnt screw up the economy, or the other crowd who are all singing from the same Hymn sheet and that have screwed up our country ....

they all said what the going too do including sf or should i say didnt say as normally, i dont trust any party specify sf

KELTICKNIGHTT · 08-02-2011 08:28PM

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

We borrow from the bond markets to pay back the EU/IMF. The interest rate has been set such that once we get the deficit under control we will be able to borrow from the bond markets at a lower rate of interest than the bailout. With the bailout money we have four years to get our house in order and then we can continue trading like a normal country.

How do SF plan to pay for gardai, nurses, social welfare, state pensions, etc. next year when they have spent the NPRF and cant borrow from the bond markets? I have asked that question about 5 times now and still no SF supporter has been able to answer.

you wont get a solution from any sf rep or supporter here or any where else,all they do is say what others do or did ,o yes the pesion fund seems too be there only answer

Xclusiv Barber · 08-02-2011 08:35PM

Cal_Egle wrote: »

I 100% respect that you are self employed and keeping money in this country, trying to build a business .... , i am guessing you would rather vote for FF, FG, Labour, who have alll out-sourced their election campaigns to the US (so much for keeping jobs in Ireland)... It was SF that embarassed the FF party into a U-Turn on out-sourcing the government print contracts for the last 12 months... The government said that they were obliged under EU law to put all government contracts out to tender for anyone in the EU to put in bids .... SF were the party that came up with the idea of not putting any contracts for over 3 million out for tender, ie breaking up the bigger contracts into smaller contracts worth less than 3 million... Thus avoiding the EU law conflict and managing to keep the jobs/contracts here in Ireland ... why didnt the other parties come up with this simple, effective, legal mechanism?? FF admitted it was SF that came up with this idea in 2010 and they implemented the idea for all government contracts that arose after this in August. The truth is that the other parties do not have any imagination, they are not living in our reality. They dont give a crap about us... surely as a businessman you must respect this... Its simple economics 101, you do not out-source jobs to Europe, when you can give employment to Irish people. As i said in a previous post, please do not think for one second that i agree with ALL SF's policies, but damn it, dontsay they are all bad... none of the other parties are thinking laterally on how to get out of the mess we are in, and right now, we need some lateral thinking....

your point is well made, as are those of the impish young sharkie66 when his thoughts are on this thread and not on my brain ability (i'll deride myself thats how self deprecation works ta). Listen my cúpla buachaillî óg na hEireann, you never asked me how i was going to vote nor did i say. I never said i was not voting sinn fein nor did i dismiss ALL their policies outright. Many of them are sound, many of them are flawed, or not thought through. No, I simply pointed out how sinn fein will not be in power. I pointed out that it is my humble opinion that they may get 7or8 seats,I also stated elsewhere in this and other threads that i will be voting for what is best for me in my constituency. Consider that i'm still the right side of 40, so not quite as old as yoda. I've turned down the opportunity to move abroad, and moved within ireland, to set up my own business, as i'm staunchly irish, as it happens. I hope to add 5or6 staff. If that works, we'll see whats next. Having 5kids and a wife, taxes, mortgages, child benefit slashed, business grants slashed (i got zero instead of three grand starting out) i once felt exactly the same as you guys. But The world and the experiences you have in it can modify your opinions over time. remember, on the plus side, sinn fein have come a huge huge way in a very short time, its not that long since they had to dub over them with actors voices, now they are on the verge of a parliamentary voice by attaining 7 seats. Personally, When you get to where i am, and you hav family business jobs tax etc to consider, the result is I will be voting for the best men for me and my family. But his party is not necessarily the best to lead nationally. There is the dicotomy. experience teaches me this. But thats me. To each his own. As for my number one vote, well you never asked. Clue. I'm in north kerry. Worked it out? Never assume lads. Theres a saying, assumption is the mother of all 4uck ups. Go neirí an bothar libh

deelite · 08-02-2011 08:37PM

fred252 wrote: »

so what would you be doing if another party had knocked on your door also? toss a coin then i guess.

SafeSurfer · 08-02-2011 08:52PM

Cal_Egle wrote: »

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Haa haa ... you are blaming Sinn Fein for having a lower poverty level than in the southQUOTE]

No a higher poverty level. There is a higher poverty level in northern Ireland than in the republic.

crebel81 · 08-02-2011 08:57PM

KELTICKNIGHTT wrote: »

this sf stuff is getting old,the policy's wont work,everyone only there supporters know this,not worth wasting any more time on sf ,there supporter and followers and even some of party are here putting out there stuff but no solutions that will work in today world,,they still have put out policy's that will work in the real world ,all they do as supporter do is talk about what other party's say or will do but no real policy's ,the policy s they put forward will bankrupt Ireland,tells us there in experience too be in a government,you just have too look at there candidates the thread is about will you vote for sf,thats it
sf needs too address there policy's, as they would be worse management than Anglo bank was .sf are not a consideration in any government as they have a long way too go ,bully strategy has no place in southern Ireland and we part of europe whether sf likes it or not and Ireland can leave Europe for a whole load of reasons,we have too work within Europe,sf needs too know and learn this,then put out policy's that will work,they haven't so far,

So are you saying that neither FF, FG nor Labour are not talking about what other parties are doing? I am guessing no.

Sf's policies will bankrupt Ireland? I would like you to point how this would arise. If anything, Fianna Fail have led us down the path towards bankruptcy

KELTICKNIGHTT · 08-02-2011 09:23PM

crebel81 wrote: »

So are you saying that neither FF, FG nor Labour are not talking about what other parties are doing? I am guessing no.

Sf's policies will bankrupt Ireland? I would like you to point how this would arise. If anything, Fianna Fail have led us down the path towards bankruptcy

only thing sf has put forward is pension fund ,sf have said where they going too get 16b too run the country,wheres there other policy's,,even listening too there leader ,still dont say how they going too solve things

Muckie · 08-02-2011 09:26PM

SF for me, gonna give them a go

mini mal · 08-02-2011 09:41PM

Hi people.Yes I am going to vote SF maybe there polices are not great but we have no hope of paying that bale out anyway.:P

SafeSurfer · 08-02-2011 09:45PM

Cal_Egle wrote: »

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Haa haa ... you are blaming Sinn Fein for having a lower poverty level than in the south.... 1) They have a much better health service than we do .... 2) They cant raise any taxes in the North , not allowed to by the British government ... 3) Their public services are much better in the North
4) The British government refused to build a proper road infrastructure in the North, even after the good friday agreement.... as they know that they would be building that infrastructure for a Republic (once unification happens, and that is still years away).....

Its not about raising additional taxes. Sinn Fein policies have failed to allocate existing resources in a way that addresses inequality and reduces consistent poverty in northen Ireland.

anyone here going to vote sinn féin?

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