Can somebody explain why this is good?

ultra55ound · 04-02-2011 02:26PM #1

I'm not trying to be funny here or anything, if anything I'm frightened that I'm turning into my Dad when he described Sonic Youth as 'just noise'. That was pretty much exactly what I thought when I heard this.

What's going on here, and why do people like this so much?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyKCwDJ7ZUc

rcaz · 04-02-2011 02:58PM

ultra55ound wrote: »

I'm not trying to be funny here or anything, if anything I'm frightened that I'm turning into my Dad when he described Sonic Youth as 'just noise'. That was pretty much exactly what I thought when I heard this.

What's going on here, and why do people like this so much?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyKCwDJ7ZUc

He's running his guitar into his laptop running a Max/MSP patch that selects little samples and repeats them. I think the parameters like sample length and how often it samples are randomised, or controlled by input amplitude or something. From what I've heard it's a modified version of a preset demo patch that comes with Max/MSP out of the box.

Why do people like anything? I like it 'cause it's an interesting sound. Jonny's one of my favourite players, and though there's not much constructive or groundbreaking about this sound, I think it has a lot of 'cool' factor, and in the context (I dunno if you know the song, it's from the end of Go To Sleep), it's got a cool entrance and sounds nicely out-of-place.

Better than a million minor pentatonic licks

ultra55ound · 04-02-2011 03:24PM

Why do people like anything?

Well, yeah, sure, I'm not saying anyone shouldn't like it or anything, I'm just trying to 'get it' I guess.

I just listened to it in context and I can hang on to it for a few seconds, but really, it's 'just noise' isn't it? (Oh God I HAVE become my father)

I have to say I loved radiohead years back and I'd consider OK Computer to be one of the greatest albums of all time. But this... I dunno.. I guess it just takes it a bit too far for me.

It's certainly different from a million minor pentatonic licks, and 'interesting sound' could be one way to describe it, but is it music? Is it good? What if I'd posted a video of myself playing that on youtube? Would it get the same reaction? I doubt it.

Is it possibly analogous to abstract art? Where any joe soap could have thrown some random mush onto a canvas, but the value in it is that an Artist did it?

Had a quick look at that software and the potential is massive, I'd be interested to see what comes of it. Might see can I download a trial version or something

Ravelleman · 04-02-2011 04:01PM

Some people just like the aesthetic of mixing organic guitar playing with the synthetic sampling of a computer to make a weird hybrid.

Like El Pron said, it's just an interesting sound I guess.

rcaz · 04-02-2011 04:12PM

ultra55ound wrote: »

Well, yeah, sure, I'm not saying anyone shouldn't like it or anything, I'm just trying to 'get it' I guess.

I just listened to it in context and I can hang on to it for a few seconds, but really, it's 'just noise' isn't it? (Oh God I HAVE become my father)

I have to say I loved radiohead years back and I'd consider OK Computer to be one of the greatest albums of all time. But this... I dunno.. I guess it just takes it a bit too far for me.

It's certainly different from a million minor pentatonic licks, and 'interesting sound' could be one way to describe it, but is it music? Is it good? What if I'd posted a video of myself playing that on youtube? Would it get the same reaction? I doubt it.

Is it possibly analogous to abstract art? Where any joe soap could have thrown some random mush onto a canvas, but the value in it is that an Artist did it?

Had a quick look at that software and the potential is massive, I'd be interested to see what comes of it. Might see can I download a trial version or something

I think Ravelleman said it really well, it's an interesting mix of normal and abnormal.

I know what you mean, it's annoying and unfair that, just because it's Jonny Greenwood, it's accepted. If it were you or me probably nobody would care. I think a lot of it is to do with the whole song though. Like all the attention Radiohead got when Kid A came out - none of it was very new, it was just diverse interests stuck together. But being able to do these unusual things in the context of a Radiohead song (they are fantastic songwriters, all musical tastes aside, they can write and structure a good tune) is the bit that makes it noticeable.

The 'what is music' argument is way too big for this I think... Lest we start arguing about Interstellar Space or 4'33" or something! (which I am totally up for btw

)

Have a look for Pure Data, it's the free precursor to Max/MSP. Exactly the same possibilities, just a little less user-friendly (it's completely free so there's no incentive for a formal how-to documentation). There are a lot of great example patches that come with it and there' a really good guide written up to introduce the basics here. I've been using Pd for a while, and it's amazing to work with, the way it allows you to imagine everything for yourself and figure your own way of doing things. It takes a lot of time but I think it's worth it, for the intimacy of the control it allows.

darrenw5094 · 04-02-2011 04:12PM

El Pr0n wrote: »

Better than a million minor pentatonic licks

Playing a million pentatonic licks would be slightly harder than that.

That is pathetic guitar playing man. Jaysus, why do we bother practacing anymore if that rubbish is acceptable.

ultra55ound · 04-02-2011 04:13PM

Yeah I like the idea, I guess I just personally don't think the execution was very good. I love some of the things people are doing with Kaos pads, sounds amazing.

I suppose my objection to that solo goes a little further than just not liking it. I don't like most Jazz, but I can still appreciate that it is has musical qualities and I can appreciate the skill and craftsmanship.

On the other hand, at least it's provoking some thought and self inspection in me, which makes it better than most by default

rcaz · 04-02-2011 04:17PM

darrenw5094 wrote: »

Playing a million pentatonic licks would be slightly harder than that.

That is pathetic guitar playing man. Jaysus, why do we bother practacing anymore if that rubbish is acceptable.

You're thinking too much like someone who plays the guitar, and not enough like someone who makes music. Why does 'practicing' have to be about improving technique?

rcaz · 04-02-2011 04:19PM

ultra55ound wrote: »

Yeah I like the idea, I guess I just personally don't think the execution was very good. I love some of the things people are doing with Kaos pads, sounds amazing.

I suppose my objection to that solo goes a little further than just not liking it. I don't like most Jazz, but I can still appreciate that it is has musical qualities and I can appreciate the skill and craftsmanship.

On the other hand, at least it's provoking some thought and self inspection in me, which makes it better than most by default

I don't think he's trying to show off skill or musicianship or anything like that, I think he's just trying to make a cool noise. You can see Thom laughing at him a bit. He's just having his noisy little moment, and it's kinda cool to watch :P

darrenw5094 · 04-02-2011 04:22PM

El Pr0n wrote: »

You're thinking too much like someone who plays the guitar, and not enough like someone who makes music. Why does 'practicing' have to be about improving technique?

Here we go again......jeeeesh.

How can you possibly improve your technique with out practice??? :rolleyes:
I am not knocking the wacky sounds he gets there, but he can't play for crap on that clip. Think of how much better it could be if he put a bit of effort in when he is at home. That is a childlike attempt at actually playing the guitar. He doesn't even look at the fricken notes he plays most of the time.

Strings.ie · 04-02-2011 04:47PM

I've a great respect for Radiohead. They have remained commercial while making non-commercial music. They seem to be very true to their art so fair play to them.

But for me, I think their 2nd album The Bends is one of the finest albums of the 90's. Strong songs, great musicianship, you name it, that album had it. Then with OK computer the technology infiltrated the music.
Since then there has been the odd piece of music such as Nude from their last album that is just beautiful and perfect but the heavy use of computers in their music leaves me cold and a bit bored.

I've been longing for them to go back to their roots as a good old Guitar band and let the songs and their talent speak for itself.

But in answer to your question OP, yes you are getting old. What justifies cool at our age just doesn't do it for the youngsters and vice versa. Such is life

ultra55ound · 04-02-2011 04:50PM

Strings.ie wrote: »

But in answer to your question OP, yes you are getting old. What justifies cool at our age just doesn't do it for the youngsters and vice versa. Such is life

F*ck! ah well, if that's what constitutes a great guitar solo then I'm happy enough with my lot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBF1fERpoAA

*Edit, just cause I'm listening to that right now, and it ROCKS

darrenw5094 · 04-02-2011 04:56PM

Thank God for Jimi.:)

Where the feck would we be without Jimi.

Adyx · 04-02-2011 05:19PM

darrenw5094 wrote: »

Here we go again......jeeeesh.

How can you possibly improve your technique with out practice??? :rolleyes:
I am not knocking the wacky sounds he gets there, but he can't play for crap on that clip. Think of how much better it could be if he put a bit of effort in when he is at home. That is a childlike attempt at actually playing the guitar. He doesn't even look at the fricken notes he plays most of the time.

I think you too El Pr0n's point up backwards there. I'm not a fan of latter-day Radiohead to be honest and I do recognise the importance of technique but it can result in some players over-relying on it which gets very boring and tiresome (i.e. the million pentatonic notes thing, playing hundreds of notes as fast you can etc).

With regards to Jonny Greenwood's playing, he has plenty of technical ability I believe and who's to say that what he played there isn't exactly what the song required. Why would playing certain notes that conform to a certain scale make that song any better?

Ravelleman · 04-02-2011 05:28PM

darrenw5094 wrote: »

That is a childlike attempt at actually playing the guitar.

"All children are artists, the problem is how to remain an artist when he grows up." - Pablo Picasso

rcaz · 04-02-2011 06:11PM

darrenw5094 wrote: »

Thank God for Jimi.:)

Where the feck would we be without Jimi.

What Jonny Greenwood was doing there is exactly equivalent to what Jimi did back in his day. Jimi Hendrix was rolling around on the floor mashing the vibrato up and down, lying on top of his guitar, getting feedback, playing through fuzz pedals, burning things, that was all brand new, mind-blowing stuff back then. I'm sure there were guys watching him thinking it was just noise and he wasn't playing properly.

But that isn't enough anymore. Today's equivalent of going way out there might be (nothing's definitive after all) just this, playing into computers, using random sampling and looping, to make those way-out-there noises and sounds that hadn't been heard before.

Jimi Hendrix also had the bits where he practiced a lot and played the right notes at the right time and all the melodies were completely considered, and so does Jonny Greenwood.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_mMzOQpe0I

I mean, if someone posted a thread about Jimi Hendrix and only included the clip of him rolling around the floor making feedback, and complained that they didn't know why Hendrix was considered good, you'd jump down their throat for judging Hendrix on such a small, particular section of his playing. But you're being exactly that closed-minded about Jonny Greenwood.

darrenw5094 wrote: »

Here we go again......jeeeesh.

How can you possibly improve your technique with out practice??? :rolleyes:
I am not knocking the wacky sounds he gets there, but he can't play for crap on that clip. Think of how much better it could be if he put a bit of effort in when he is at home. That is a childlike attempt at actually playing the guitar. He doesn't even look at the fricken notes he plays most of the time.

Of course you can't improve your technique without practice, but technique is a tiny tiny part of playing the guitar. What about learning about how the notes you're playing work? New scales and harmonies you could implement? Different ways you could shape your timbre? Different ways to make sounds from the instrument? Different ways to structure your music or arrange your harmonies? I mean you can't practice you're technique if you don't have the right notes to play.

That clip isn't about playing for crap, it's about making noisey sounds. So what if he doesn't look at the notes? It's meant to be sloppy and atonal. Who are you to say what he should do anyway? I mean, you go about playing the guitar whatever you way you want, and then see who's better-remembered, you or Jonny Greenwood?

Rigsby · 04-02-2011 07:30PM

ultra55ound wrote: »

What's going on here, and why do people like this so much?

That is "sing along" stuff compared to "Last Exit".

They were very popular with rockers and jazzers alike in the mid 80's. Like a lot of things, it is an acquired taste, but when you finally "get it", the freedom and exhilaration is refreshing IMO.

Here's a clip of them. Enjoy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYwhQSP77jY

mikom · 04-02-2011 07:33PM

El Pr0n wrote: »

Why do people like anything?

You men, the things you think are "great fun".
Like going to the films, a load of men sitting around looking at films!
And rollercoasters, a load of men in a rollercoaster going up and down on a big metal track!
And sailing, a load of men in a big boat floating around in the sea!
And shouting, a load of men going around shouting! And so forth.

bad2dabone · 04-02-2011 08:07PM

I remember a few years ago I was in the Tate Modern Art gallery in London, just walking through looking at the pieces, as you do. Well one room I entered there were 2 people looking at a radiator on the wall as if it was an exhibit. Hands clasped behind their backs, possibly commenting on how interesting and cool it was that the artist had pushed the boundaries of art by creating such a groundbreaking piece. "What was the artist trying to say?" "It's a comment on the modern human condition! He's a genius!"
But it was just a radiator.

The piece of "music" above reminds me of the radiator incident.

El Pron's saying that its interesting and sounds nicely out of place, but really its just what it appears to be when you hear it first.

Which is garbage.

It sounds like 2 video game arcades having a fight in a back alley. to me there's nothing impressive about hooking his guitar up to a laptop and the laptop is selecting samples - i mean, it's bullsh1t.
Better than a million pentatonic licks, don't make me laugh!

rcaz · 04-02-2011 08:16PM

bad2dabone wrote: »

I remember a few years ago I was in the Tate Modern Art gallery in London, just walking through looking at the pieces, as you do. Well one room I entered there were 2 people looking at a radiator on the wall as if it was an exhibit. Hands clasped behind their backs, possibly commenting on how interesting and cool it was that the artist had pushed the boundaries of art by creating such a groundbreaking piece. "What was the artist trying to say?" "It's a comment on the modern human condition! He's a genius!"
But it was just a radiator.

The piece of "music" above reminds me of the radiator incident.

El Pron's saying that its interesting and sounds nicely out of place, but really its just what it appears to be when you hear it first.

Which is garbage.

It sounds like 2 video game arcades having a fight in a back alley. to me there's nothing impressive about hooking his guitar up to a laptop and the laptop is selecting samples - i mean, it's bullsh1t.
Better than a million pentatonic licks, don't make me laugh!

I don't get why people are so ready to hate on people who do something a little weird and a little pointless.

Also, I'm saying that I think it's interesting and I think it sounds nicely out of place. Which I do.

bad2dabone · 04-02-2011 08:19PM

El Pr0n wrote: »

I don't get why people are so ready to hate on people who do something a little weird and a little pointless.

Also, I'm saying that I think it's interesting and I think it sounds nicely out of place. Which I do.

fair enough dude. Maybe i got a little ranty, i#m very hungry and the dinner's taking an age to cook

rcaz · 04-02-2011 08:20PM

bad2dabone wrote: »

fair enough dude. Maybe i got a little ranty, i#m very hungry and the dinner's taking an age to cook

I can completely understand why people wouldn't be into this, but just 'cause someone's not into something, doesn't mean it's invalid or rubbish or anything. To give out about this saying that it's not as good as something else doesn't make sense, because that side of it is all down to taste.

i57dwun4yb1pt8 · 04-02-2011 09:06PM

compare and contrast

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofcBNcHB9-Y

the feel alone is god like

Bodhisopha · 04-02-2011 09:11PM

It's an inside joke. Certain musicians have been on a mission to make the most god awful sounds, pass it off as music, and sit back and laugh when people lap it up and declare them geniuses. Mike Patton has been doing this for years. They have a sick sense of humour.

Rigsby · 04-02-2011 10:26PM

Bodhisopha wrote: »

on a mission to make the most god awful sounds,

This is in the ear of the beholder. Personally this free form stuff does more for me than any of the tripe on most radio stations every day, and I could not give a f--k who is laughing at me for liking it. "Sticks and Stones..." and all that...

Music is just sound waves, the same as noise. Nothing is written in stone. There are no "rules" in music, just experimentation. To his eternal regret, Louis Armstrong once labeled bebop as pointless noise ( or words to that effect). Where would jazz (or music in general) be today, if everyone stayed in their own little comfort zone ?

Rigsby · 04-02-2011 10:38PM

DaDumTish wrote: »

compare and contrast

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofcBNcHB9-Y

the feel alone is god like

I agree 100% about that song, but what is wrong with liking other types of music also ?

IMO you are losing out by not opening your ears to other sounds that are out there.

ciaranmac · 05-02-2011 01:45PM

I think there is a human response to a type of music we're not used to hearing, where we don't recognise it as being music at all. My Dad tells a story about when he was learning to play guitar and heard Hendrix for the first time, tried to copy what Jimi was doing and his father actually broke his own guitar over his knee rather than let him play it. And now Hendrix is recognised as one of the greatest musicians ever. Whether it's thrash, trance or trad it often takes at least a few minutes of open minded listening to get to grips with an unfamiliar style of music. 38 seconds isn't going to do it. If someone hasn't got the patience for it, it isn't Jonny Greenwood's problem.

BrianJD · 05-02-2011 01:56PM

ultra55ound wrote: »

I'm not trying to be funny here or anything, if anything I'm frightened that I'm turning into my Dad when he described Sonic Youth as 'just noise'. That was pretty much exactly what I thought when I heard this.

What's going on here, and why do people like this so much?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyKCwDJ7ZUc
[/QUOT

Pants.....
Radiohead should have musical poo cause their heads are so far up there arses.

population · 05-02-2011 02:22PM

bad2dabone wrote: »

I remember a few years ago I was in the Tate Modern Art gallery in London, just walking through looking at the pieces, as you do. Well one room I entered there were 2 people looking at a radiator on the wall as if it was an exhibit. Hands clasped behind their backs, possibly commenting on how interesting and cool it was that the artist had pushed the boundaries of art by creating such a groundbreaking piece. "What was the artist trying to say?" "It's a comment on the modern human condition! He's a genius!"
But it was just a radiator.

The piece of "music" above reminds me of the radiator incident.

El Pron's saying that its interesting and sounds nicely out of place, but really its just what it appears to be when you hear it first.

Which is garbage.

It sounds like 2 video game arcades having a fight in a back alley. to me there's nothing impressive about hooking his guitar up to a laptop and the laptop is selecting samples - i mean, it's bullsh1t.
Better than a million pentatonic licks, don't make me laugh!

I too know of said radiator exhibition and have a similar tale. I got a free ticket from a mate to go see Beck play a small venue gig about 12 years ago. Now first off the bat, I am not a big Beck fan but my 2 mates were and I thought that maybe there was something I was missing and besides "Loser" was to my ears semi catchy.

Anyway the show was just god awful. 2 hours of him messing about with amp feedback and blowing his harmonica into a distortion pedal. At one point he took a camera cable off someone who was filming the gig and put it into his feedbacking amp and started messing about with the cables at the back of the amp while still blowing his harp and kicking his guitar with his foot. Everybody went crazy for this screaming and cheering whilst I just stood there flabbergasted that this could be considered as anything other than boring and pointless.

After the gig my two mates were re telling the camera cable part over and over again like it was the most ingenius musical thing that had ever happened. I got a free ticket so I did not want to wee on their parade, but for me the emperor was starkers

darrenw5094 · 05-02-2011 02:35PM

bad2dabone wrote: »

Which is garbage.

It sounds like 2 video game arcades having a fight in a back alley. to me there's nothing impressive about hooking his guitar up to a laptop and the laptop is selecting samples - i mean, it's bullsh1t.
Better than a million pentatonic licks, don't make me laugh!

That made me laugh.

Personally i prefer the million pentatonic licks in all different styles than the malarkey on that clip.

Rigsby · 05-02-2011 02:48PM

darrenw5094 wrote: »

Personally i prefer the million pentatonic licks in all different styles than the malarkey on that clip.

You hit the nail on the head here : i.e. music is all about personal preference.

Can somebody explain why this is good?

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