Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Cross breeding

13

Comments

  • #62
    whelan1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,786 ✭✭✭✭whelan1


    i am liquid milk , in my discussion group there are only 2 liquid milk farmers the rest are all spring calving , not fair to compare all results , me thinks


  • #63
    jeff greene
    Closed Accounts Posts: 733 ✭✭✭jeff greene


    funny man wrote: »
    No i accept what your saying and i'm not blameing the cow either i am responable for taking advise from mostly breeding advisors and have gone down the wrong road for my system, i'm not in the camp that slag off the Ho/Fr breed they are exceptional at what they do and are very diverse as a breed but from my own view i think we have bred fertility out of them. I do read Jack Kennedy:rolleyes: and Teagasc publications but with an open mind as i will no longer take advise from someone who dosn't milk cows.



    i'm not sure how massive this advantage is, like you i generally don't get cows out until march but from studing profit monitors i think compact calving cows has more to do with profit no matter what the system e.g. my cows went out on March 04 last year but only 32% were calved so i had too many cows inside on silage the same dolls will finish their lactation on silage not getting full advantage of grass.

    I’m the same, Jack Kennedy has come out with some classic stuff.:D


    Compact calving is great if you have it. I see lads selling perfect young cows, replacing with expensive heifers and do the same thing again next year. They’re treating the symptoms and not the problems. Having fully grown heifers calving in mid Jan is key . every year lads are pushing out calving date to match grass, still expecting to be finished in early Apr.


  • #64
    whelan1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,786 ✭✭✭✭whelan1


    i think its very hard to expect a heifer to come in at 2 years of age , its putting alot of pressure on the animal


  • #65
    jeff greene
    Closed Accounts Posts: 733 ✭✭✭jeff greene


    whelan1 wrote: »
    i think its very hard to expect a heifer to come in at 2 years of age , its putting alot of pressure on the animal

    I know what you mean, you have to stay on them from birth to have them right, it is the only way to maintain calving interval.

    Easy calving bull and a bit of extra in the parlour, cause they are still growing, will get off to a good start.


  • #66
    whelan1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,786 ✭✭✭✭whelan1


    that is one of the big advantages of liquid milk , autumn born heifers calve in the spring and spring born calve in the autmn so they are 30 months old


  • Advertisement
  • #67
    jeff greene
    Closed Accounts Posts: 733 ✭✭✭jeff greene


    whelan1 wrote: »
    that is one of the big advantages of liquid milk , autumn born heifers calve in the spring and spring born calve in the autmn so they are 30 months old

    I agree, you cant beat age.


  • #68
    whelan1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,786 ✭✭✭✭whelan1


    thats why the jersey cross remind me of an under grown friesian heifer.I remeber going to look at heifers to buy a good few years ago they where just under 2 year old calved down , when i was walking up to them you would think they where weanlings , so small and the calving at that age had taken alot out of them , i didnt buy


  • #69
    irishh_bob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,700 ✭✭✭irishh_bob


    whelan1 wrote: »
    that is one of the big advantages of liquid milk , autumn born heifers calve in the spring and spring born calve in the autmn so they are 30 months old

    two and a half yrs old is the ideal age to calve down heifers , the difference in size between them and an animal calving at 24 mths old is remarkable


  • #70
    jeff greene
    Closed Accounts Posts: 733 ✭✭✭jeff greene


    irishh_bob wrote: »
    two and a half yrs old is the ideal age to calve down heifers , the difference in size between them and an animal calving at 24 mths old is remarkable


    I agree but in the Text book spring calving herd with a calving interval of 365 odd days you can’t.


  • #71
    stanflt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,785 ✭✭✭stanflt


    whelan1 wrote: »
    i think its very hard to expect a heifer to come in at 2 years of age , its putting alot of pressure on the animal

    i calve at 2year old-find it much more profitable. feed meal from birth right up to calving. this way ive more to sell and sooner


  • Advertisement
  • #72
    dar31
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,704 ✭✭✭dar31


    cant get my head around letting heifers run to 30+ months, the cost alone, they are not any more likely to go in calf, they will get over conditioned and harder got in calf, if they carry over they are what.. 36 months,
    it has been proven time and again that calving at 22-26 months gives the best return both economically and in life time production
    sure it is a luxury to be able to let a few slip if they dont make the weight.
    but really split calving is just a "good excuse for bad management"

    teagasc is an advoisory and research body and a lot of what they do is new and is updated for the better each year, the work they are doing should be applauded, however it is a fool that follows on their heals 100% as their reaserch needs to be seen through to the end each year, and conclusions came to. but to aim to implement some thing new each year in order to better the farm to step outside your comfort zone for a while is no harm.
    joe patten in johnstown castle is doing some exceptional work on grass based winter/liquid milk production, streamlining milk supply profile and costings for winter/liquid production.

    finally, every one should make an effort to get the cows out a few days earlier each year, it amazing what can be done when you try.
    if the rain stays away, im heading out with mine before the weekend:D

    bit of a ramble!!


  • #73
    stanflt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,785 ✭✭✭stanflt


    dar31 wrote: »
    cant get my head around letting heifers run to 30+ months, the cost alone, they are not any more likely to go in calf, they will get over conditioned and harder got in calf, if they carry over they are what.. 36 months,
    it has been proven time and again that calving at 22-26 months gives the best return both economically and in life time production
    sure it is a luxury to be able to let a few slip if they dont make the weight.
    but really split calving is just a "good excuse for bad management"

    teagasc is an advoisory and research body and a lot of what they do is new and is updated for the better each year, the work they are doing should be applauded, however it is a fool that follows on their heals 100% as their reaserch needs to be seen through to the end each year, and conclusions came to. but to aim to implement some thing new each year in order to better the farm to step outside your comfort zone for a while is no harm.
    joe patten in johnstown castle is doing some exceptional work on grass based winter/liquid milk production, streamlining milk supply profile and costings for winter/liquid production.

    finally, every one should make an effort to get the cows out a few days earlier each year, it amazing what can be done when you try.
    if the rain stays away, im heading out with mine before the weekend:D

    bit of a ramble!!

    well said:)


  • #74
    whelan1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,786 ✭✭✭✭whelan1


    some people are lucky to have dry land , ours is very heavy , 2010 was the first year i had the cows out after november 1 at night ever , we can all try to let them out earlier but in truth some of us just cant.... stan flt , what is the cost in meal feeding a heifer from day 1 to calving , must be expensive


  • #75
    funny man
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 908 ✭✭✭funny man


    whelan1 wrote: »
    i am liquid milk , in my discussion group there are only 2 liquid milk farmers the rest are all spring calving , not fair to compare all results , me thinks

    I used to agree with that but now i think it's still good to compare costs, other than meal and machinery costs all others are comparable on all farms and you can make decisions based on figures, i'll never get meal cost's down as low as others or be the most profitable farm in my group, but i accept that and try to make the best of what i have. i use my profit monitor to improve my profits.

    in all your last comments i think ye have addressed my problem; I have a scattered calving pattern which in turn leads to late calves and on to under sized and late calving heifers and the cycle starts all over again, now if i sort that out it might sort out my fertility problem. THANKS LADS!!


  • #76
    whelan1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,786 ✭✭✭✭whelan1


    stanflt wrote: »
    i calve at 2year old-find it much more profitable. feed meal from birth right up to calving. this way ive more to sell and sooner
    AND when some one buys them they will melt as they are so used to all the meal ...:rolleyes:


  • #77
    jeff greene
    Closed Accounts Posts: 733 ✭✭✭jeff greene


    whelan1 wrote: »
    AND when some one buys them they will melt as they are so used to all the meal ...:rolleyes:

    You don’t need alot of meal to have good heifers. Dosing, good grass and silage is more important. Alot of farms neglect the heifers, grazing the poorer land, etc, especially with herds getting bigger.


  • #78
    whelan1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,786 ✭✭✭✭whelan1


    jeff greene wrote: »
    You don’t need alot of meal to have good heifers. Dosing, good grass and silage is more important. Alot of farms neglect the heifers, grazing the poorer land, etc, especially with herds getting bigger.
    imo you dont need any meal from when they are a few months old until they go in to the parlour


  • #79
    funny man
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 908 ✭✭✭funny man


    whelan1 wrote: »
    imo you dont need any meal from when they are a few months old until they go in to the parlour

    that may be so if you have a split herd but if your spring calving you have to push them.
    Maybe the meal feeding is the difference in a heifer staying in the herd.
    If you feed a heifer on average 1kg/day from birth to calving( this will allow 2kg for small ones and none to big ones) for 24months x 30days x 1kg = 720kgs x €300/ton = €216 meal cost per heifer, it should help her get through the first lactation.


  • #80
    whelan1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,786 ✭✭✭✭whelan1


    spoke with ai man yesterday gvv seems the way to go , he br/fr and his ebi went up from 187 last year to 202 this year , says everyone wants to get away from oman


  • #81
    jeff greene
    Closed Accounts Posts: 733 ✭✭✭jeff greene


    whelan1 wrote: »
    spoke with ai man yesterday gvv seems the way to go , he br/fr and his ebi went up from 187 last year to 202 this year , says everyone wants to get away from oman


    Breeding solely for fertility which only has a inheritability of about 1% while completely disregarding other traits is flawed. Taking GVV for example, fore udder -1.25 and rear udder support of -1.19. Combine that with a stature of -1.73 will leave you with udders wiping the floor, leading to SCC and mastitis problems, so even if she has great fertility, there is still a chance she’ll be culled.

    While I agree with using high fertility bulls, I always make sure their Type is in the middle of the road.


  • Advertisement
  • #82
    pakalasa
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,552 ✭✭✭pakalasa


    jeff greene wrote: »
    Breeding solely for fertility which only has a inheritability of about 1%

    Anyone know where you can get the inheritability for all the traits. I remember seeing it before, but cant remember where?


  • #83
    funny man
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 908 ✭✭✭funny man


    whelan1 wrote: »
    spoke with ai man yesterday gvv seems the way to go , he br/fr and his ebi went up from 187 last year to 202 this year , says everyone wants to get away from oman

    looked him up on icbf good EBI on both sides TIHxMBH, reliability up to 70%
    Breeding solely for fertility which only has a inheritability of about 1% while completely disregarding other traits is flawed. Taking GVV for example, fore udder -1.25 and rear udder support of -1.19. Combine that with a stature of -1.73 will leave you with udders wiping the floor, leading to SCC and mastitis problems, so even if she has great fertility, there is still a chance she’ll be culled.

    While I agree with using high fertility bulls, I always make sure their Type is in the middle of the road.

    Fertility has a low heritability because there are so many factors which influence it but the fertility sub index in EBI is made up by calving interval and survival which will give a better indication of how a bulls offspring will be like.
    Could you explain type to me and what is it based on, What is this perfect base cow like? is she a super model who will get pampered to appear in shows or is she a hard working, no nonsense, calve every year with a low maintenance budget.


  • #84
    bogman_bass
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,136 ✭✭✭bogman_bass


    We nver bred for type when we were milking but I cant say we ever had to cull one for her udder


  • #85
    jeff greene
    Closed Accounts Posts: 733 ✭✭✭jeff greene


    bogman_bass wrote: »
    We nver bred for type when we were milking but I cant say we ever had to cull one for her udder

    Neither have I on the grounds of a cow having a blown udder, but I have culled for high SCC and chronic mastitis, udder depth and fore udder attachment is strongly linked to both


  • #86
    jeff greene
    Closed Accounts Posts: 733 ✭✭✭jeff greene


    funny man wrote: »
    Could you explain type to me and what is it based on, What is this perfect base cow like? is she a super model who will get pampered to appear in shows or is she a hard working, no nonsense, calve every year with a low maintenance budget.

    As I understand it is based on the average cow on Irish farms, the base changes every few years to account for changes in the breed. Type to me doesn’t mean breeding a show winner, its something I know I’ll never do. I look at the liner and pick bulls to improve or maintain my cows. But their milk and fertility index have to be right also. The ICBF website is excellent for comparing bulls.


  • #87
    funny man
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 908 ✭✭✭funny man


    As I understand it is based on the average cow on Irish farms, the base changes every few years to account for changes in the breed. Type to me doesn’t mean breeding a show winner, its something I know I’ll never do. I look at the liner and pick bulls to improve or maintain my cows. But their milk and fertility index have to be right also. The ICBF website is excellent for comparing bulls.

    Fair enough i'm glad to see you do pick on fertility index also because it will breed more fertile cows. the other big one and it is partly to do with genetics is BCS body condition score this one i believe has alot to do with HO/Fr not going back in calf, reason why; Ho/Fr give more milk, require more feed, are harder to put dry, usually have to gain more condition over dry period and any extra meal is converted to milk when calved so harder to improve condition before mating. This is why more Bfr blood would improve the Ho/Fr breed.

    Anyone know where i could get the full details from the positive farmers conference?


  • #88
    jeff greene
    Closed Accounts Posts: 733 ✭✭✭jeff greene


    funny man wrote: »
    Fair enough i'm glad to see you do pick on fertility index also because it will breed more fertile cows. the other big one and it is partly to do with genetics is BCS body condition score this one i believe has alot to do with HO/Fr not going back in calf, reason why; Ho/Fr give more milk, require more feed, are harder to put dry, usually have to gain more condition over dry period and any extra meal is converted to milk when calved so harder to improve condition before mating. This is why more Bfr blood would improve the Ho/Fr breed.

    Anyone know where i could get the full details from the positive farmers conference?

    As I said fertility has a low heritability, it doesn’t mean you shouldn’t breed for it. The IFJ have audio clips from the conference online. http://www.farmersjournal.ie/site/farmingaudio.php


  • #89
    funny man
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 908 ✭✭✭funny man


    jeff greene wrote: »
    As I said fertility has a low heritability, it doesn’t mean you shouldn’t breed for it. The IFJ have audio clips from the conference online. http://www.farmersjournal.ie/site/farmingaudio.php

    Jeff your still missing the point the fertility index is made up of Calving interval and survival and this is showing up to improve fertility. I reckon it should be number one on the list, because without survivability we will have no problems with feet or udders as a young cow doesn't need good feet to go up a ramp on a lorry.

    Thanks for the link.


  • #90
    keep going
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,551 ✭✭✭keep going


    one thing about crossing with jersy is the herd size.in larger herds jersy cross,s are handy because they give less hassle which means less work during peak busy season ie.less milkfever,calving problems,digestive upsets and you can dump your bull calves early and mind your heifer calves. that is the reason nz farmers have them as much as fertility but that said they will help your fertility


  • Advertisement
  • #91
    funny man
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 908 ✭✭✭funny man


    keep going wrote: »
    one thing about crossing with jersy is the herd size.in larger herds jersy cross,s are handy because they give less hassle which means less work during peak busy season ie.less milkfever,calving problems,digestive upsets and you can dump your bull calves early and mind your heifer calves. that is the reason nz farmers have them as much as fertility but that said they will help your fertility

    Done alot of research on the JerseyX or HoJo and a couple of issues came up can you tell me is there a temperment problem withthese animals as i have contacted alot of farmers that have gone down this road, while none of them said they regretted it i heard storys from cows opening doors, knocking down fences by toppling over the fence posts to vasectomised bulls chasing a quad across a paddock, I have accepted lower values of calves and culls with similar milk solids but without the volume which in turn means less meal to feed out, but as i have young children who help me out on the farm this does concern me and would be enough to put me off the plan. Can anyone shed some light on the HoJo's temperment?


Advertisement