Cross breeding

funny man

I am considering crossbreeding my whole herd with jersey, just wondering has anyone else here have experience of this and what would the advice be?

The back ground of the herd is holstein cows milking 6300 litres with fair solids 3.8 fat and 3.3 protein, but the problem is they are hard to get back into calf, now i have done the whole herd health investigation with my vet and nothing has showed up so with a empty rate of 32% and 50% of these are under third lactation i am looking seriously at crossbreeding to solve this.

So any advise would be welcomed.

5live

It may solve your problems. Do you have an outlet for jersey bulls? Are your parlour and cubicles suitable for smaller cattle ie turning around in the parlour and in the cubicles? Would you be better off useing high fertility EBI bulls across the herd for almost the same effect without space issues?

irishh_bob

funny man wrote: »

I am considering crossbreeding my whole herd with jersey, just wondering has anyone else here have experience of this and what would the advice be?

The back ground of the herd is holstein cows milking 6300 litres with fair solids 3.8 fat and 3.3 protein, but the problem is they are hard to get back into calf, now i have done the whole herd health investigation with my vet and nothing has showed up so with a empty rate of 32% and 50% of these are under third lactation i am looking seriously at crossbreeding to solve this.

So any advise would be welcomed.

crossing a jersey to a large high yielding cow is fine but the practice should be avoided on medium sized average yielding cows as you end up with runts who despite having decent solids , have quite low volume

a word of warning , once you go down the cross breeding route , you have to accept the fact that any calf out of a jersey cross cow will be of a considerabley reduced value , say for instance , you have a hereford bull cleaning up on your herd , a hereford bull calf out of a holstein jersey cross cow will still have a degree of jersey genetics and this will be reflected in his size , fresian bull calves out of holstein jersey cross cows are more or less worthless , they are only slighly better than bull calves who are out of a jersey bull and a jersey cross cow

baschically , the jersey stain will always be there when it comes to a male calf regardless of the breed of sire

cjpm

Teagasc have produced lots of stuff saying that the increase in the milk price and benefits of higher health and fertility far outweigh the losses made on the calves.

Don't shoot the messenger.... That's their advice not mine;)

jeff greene

32% empty on 6300 litres is pretty high, we need more information on your system. Do you use AI or stock bull? Heat detection? Scan pre and during the breeding season? Grass quality and quantity? 50% under third lactation may mean overstocking on the grazing(12hr wire) or heifers aren’t fully grown. As mentioned there are alot of practical issues with crossbreeding that aren’t apparent initially? I would consider some of the Oman sons or the New Zealand bulls before the Jersey.
If your confident its not disease related or management issues, sell the calving jack.:cool:

stanflt

jeff greene wrote: »

32% empty on 6300 litres is pretty high, we need more information on your system. Do you use AI or stock bull? Heat detection? Scan pre and during the breeding season? Grass quality and quantity? 50% under third lactation may mean overstocking on the grazing(12hr wire) or heifers aren’t fully grown. As mentioned there are alot of practical issues with crossbreeding that aren’t apparent initially? I would consider some of the Oman sons or the New Zealand bulls before the Jersey.
If your confident its not disease related or management issues, sell the calving jack.:cool:

agree with you 100% bulls like FLT fowlerstown stan would be ideal. what is your fertility ebi.

whelan1

i would NEVER consider crossing with jersey , there has to be an under lying cause of the infertility , do you use a stock bull ? there are some good ones around - see other thread- he might pick up heats

dar31

is the herd constantly running a high empty rate or was it just this year.
id assume that all disease testing came up clear and forage and blood mineral analysis showed the herd is sufficient in minerals.
cows need to be on a constant / rising plain of nutrition at bulling, and anything in negative enegry balance hasnt a hope of going in calf.
are they cycling and showing active heats and just not holding.
do you obeserve for bulling for 10 -20 min at a time, 5 -6 times a day.
just some thoughts.

jerseys aren't going to solve a fertility problem at farm level.
they are nice on paper, but id be wary of going with jersey across the whole herd.
ive been considering going with jersey across my heifers just for ease of calving, and giving them a head start on the breeding season, just by having a trouble free calving. also adding some high solids animals to the herd.

irishh_bob

whelan1 wrote: »

i would NEVER consider crossing with jersey , there has to be an under lying cause of the infertility , do you use a stock bull ? there are some good ones around - see other thread- he might pick up heats

a stock bull is the last thing you use if fertility is an issue in a herd , while many stock bulls can match A.I bulls when it comes to milk volume , the majority of them fall down on fertility

jeff greene

My AI man detests the idea of crossing with Jersey, he says you will be left with nothing, he has worked in the US and NZ. I wind him up saying to serve my better looking cows to Jersey. An interesting thing he said one day that made a lot sense is that conception rates on maiden heifers is excellent even when synchronized, meaning were not meeting the cows needs. Now you can blame the cow for that but thats what you have and until its fixed you have live with it.
We all know grass is the cheapest feed but a bigger picture has to be seen, 3 out of 10 cows is distaster, that means no replacement sales and reduced milk sales. Also you cant cull for other reasons. I like to feed my cows because it works for me, I get a milk responce and I have good fertility. I believe Teagasc have a lot to answer for, the old saying ‘a penny wise and a pound foolish’.

dar31

irishh_bob wrote: »

a stock bull is the last thing you use if fertility is an issue in a herd , while many stock bulls can match A.I bulls when it comes to milk volume , the majority of them fall down on fertility

not quite, on a genetics basis maybe a stock bull isnt the best.
however a bull is the best heat detection aid you will come across, and if he happens to serve them while he is at it, well what the harm.
in other words a bull will compensate for human error.
only down side is you cant pick and choose traits as with ai

stanflt

dar31 wrote: »

not quite, on a genetics basis maybe a stock bull isnt the best.
however a bull is the best heat detection aid you will come across, and if he happens to serve them while he is at it, well what the harm.
in other words a bull will compensate for human error.
only down side is you cant pick and choose traits as with ai

wrong im after geonomic testing three stock bulls that im selling.

jeff greene

wrong im after geonomic testing three stock bulls that im selling.

Where did you do this, I believed it was only females that could be tested before 2014. Its only AI companies that can do males.

stanflt

jeff greene wrote: »

Where did you do this, I believed it was only females that could be tested before 2014. Its only AI companies that can do males.

ai company did it this week along with around ten cows. ps have connections with company.

whelan1

irishh_bob wrote: »

a stock bull is the last thing you use if fertility is an issue in a herd , while many stock bulls can match A.I bulls when it comes to milk volume , the majority of them fall down on fertility

so why do 90% of herds put in a stock bull to clean up ?

John_F

funny man wrote: »

I am considering crossbreeding my whole herd with jersey, just wondering has anyone else here have experience of this and what would the advice be?

The back ground of the herd is holstein cows milking 6300 litres with fair solids 3.8 fat and 3.3 protein, but the problem is they are hard to get back into calf, now i have done the whole herd health investigation with my vet and nothing has showed up so with a empty rate of 32% and 50% of these are under third lactation i am looking seriously at crossbreeding to solve this.

So any advise would be welcomed.

what do you feed??? you are what you eat as the saying goes

funny man

I use AI for 9 weeks with scratch cards for heat detection and then basically let the bulls off for 5 weeks. I don't do any pre breeding scan just six weeks after the bulls come out.

The herd is constantly running a empty rate between 20-30% but in 2009 it was so bad i left the bulls in for 3 weeks more and it fell to 14% but this left alot of late calvers (less profit). The EBI of the herd is 63 with €32 comming from fertility, i'm not quite sure is this good or bad.

On the feed side the cows start calving in mid-Jan and are on silage and meal untill they go to grass typically around early march by day and get silage by night untill the end of march when they go out full time but they always get meal in the parlour just to help them go into calf, i feed around 800-900kgs of meal per cow every year, and most of the paddocks are reseeded, the farm isn't stocked that high 2.1lu/ha.

John_F

minerals,,, dry cow and milking cow? selenium can be a cause of cows not going in calf. is the herd relativly young or whats the replacement rate?

funny man

All cows get dry cow minerals sprinkled on the silage and should get enough in the meal for the rest of the year, My vet has taken bloods and tested for diseaes and min status and all came back fine, so looks like i will have to take another approach to sort it out.

irishh_bob

whelan1 wrote: »

so why do 90% of herds put in a stock bull to clean up ?

ive no problem with someone cleaning up with a stock bull ( preferably a beef bull ) but using a stock bull in place of A.I would be a mistake IMO

jeff greene

funny man wrote: »

I use AI for 9 weeks with scratch cards for heat detection and then basically let the bulls off for 5 weeks. I don't do any pre breeding scan just six weeks after the bulls come out.

The herd is constantly running a empty rate between 20-30% but in 2009 it was so bad i left the bulls in for 3 weeks more and it fell to 14% but this left alot of late calvers (less profit). The EBI of the herd is 63 with €32 comming from fertility, i'm not quite sure is this good or bad.

On the feed side the cows start calving in mid-Jan and are on silage and meal untill they go to grass typically around early march by day and get silage by night untill the end of march when they go out full time but they always get meal in the parlour just to help them go into calf, i feed around 800-900kgs of meal per cow every year, and most of the paddocks are reseeded, the farm isn't stocked that high 2.1lu/ha.

How good or bad is your silage, do you feed good quality meal? Some of the dairy nuts are fair shiite, with no cereals or soya, just filler
What I do and I recommend you do is contact Agriking. I am using them the last 6 yrs and things have never been better. they will test your forages and grass and what ever meal your using, they even test your water, they will come back with diets to suit your goals. They will do this all foc before you sign up.

You seem to be doing the right things and its frustrating when things go arseway

djmc

If you are thinking of cross breeding there are plenty other good milk breeds
like norwegian reds or sweedish reds, rothbunt, ayrshires, or brown swiss.
I find the jersey cross small and would be better to have them calving at 3 year olds rather than 2 yrs as the dont have the size of other breeds
Also the jer x hefiers can have a problem calving bigger breeds of bull at 2yr old.
Imo any cross breed animal will be hardier than a pure bread but nothing milks like a holstin.
Its not all about milk either though if you have empty cows or cows going down and not getting up it can cost you far more.

Miller80

does anyone know whats the best norweigan red and rotbunt bulls to use and what ai company sells them?

djmc

http://www.eurogeneaiservices.com/pricing.php?method=DIY
munster ai do norwegian red

dar31

Miller80 wrote: »

does anyone know whats the best norweigan red and rotbunt bulls to use and what ai company sells them?

any of the co.s, think it a bit of a lucky dip with them, just be careful what type of cow you put them across. fairly happy with them.

funny man

Thanks for the advise jeff, will follow that up.

I still intend to research the crossbreeding option because i believe it will sort my fertility out quicker, i have been using high fertility ho/fr bulls but i think my herd has got too big (height some cows nearly six foot) and these cows are too hard on themselves and they take extra attention or they disappear, while i believe oman was a excellent bull most of his sons are not going to be a patch on him, alot of these bulls are getting their figures from him.

The question i like to know is what is everyone else's empty rate after 13-14 weeks of serving and what would you consider your herd to be, High yield v ave yield, ho/fr, ho/fr/brf, ho/fr/kiwi/fr or whatever cross you use.

i have got research data from the teagasc crossbreeding farm in cork but i'd prefer to hear from real farmers on what is your expereince of using different breeds and maybe i'm been too narrow minded just looking at jex, but there dosn't seem to be much info on other breeds.

whelan1

why not get a br/fr stock bull or use br/fr ai? i agree with you on oman... i asked our ai company sales rep about using different bloodlines instead of oman and he wanted to know why:rolleyes:

funny man

Have you gone down this road and if so has your empty rate improved? i would love to see some figures from someone with experience of introducing a second breed and i include br/fr and kiwi/fr in that, they are available from teagasc but i'd prefer to get them from a real farm otherwise i'm just shooting in the dark.

whelan1

i bought br/fr bull last may , so calves due soon.... had had a an oman bull before that , he was great fertility wise , i am happy with the british friesian bull , would be a long time before i would use jersey , will be interesting to see his calves etc as we have been using hol/fr for years and years

djmc

Ok a few years back I brought some pure breed and frx into my heard to try to get a feel for different breeds
I have 8 sweedish red x fr cows I think they are every bit as good as friesans
for milk only slightly smaller than holstins
2 jersey cross cows milking less but higher in bfat and protin
3 2yo jersey x red friesan cows very small in parlour sorry I didnt leave them another year before bulling them.
2 montbeliarde x fr cows milks as good as friesans
Had 5 pure breed brown swiss culled 3 in 4 years I think like pure holstins they need to be looked to after but they always went in calf.
They can be bigger than friesans but would have a bit less milk
2 pure breed rotbunts good milkers same as friesans
I have 25 frx heifers to calf this year a mix of norwegian red ai.
brown swiss ai. and a rotbunt stock bull they are in calf to british fr.
So I might know a bit more next year.
So far I found with the cross breeds I have they will all milk around 5 gallons during the summer months on grass alone and are hardy I beleve in high breed vigor no problems so far.
My farm is on the side of a hill in kerry and I could never get 8 or 10 gallon from holstins and any I had didnt last too long.
As with any cows you will get the best from ai rather than a stock bull.
My protin and bfat has improved slightly across the herd but I still have a lot of pure fr cows so I might know more next year when the heifers have all calved.

jeff greene

djmc wrote: »

Ok a few years back I brought some pure breed and frx into my heard to try to get a feel for different breeds
I have 8 sweedish red x fr cows I think they are every bit as good as friesans
for milk only slightly smaller than holstins
2 jersey cross cows milking less but higher in bfat and protin
3 2yo jersey x red friesan cows very small in parlour sorry I didnt leave them another year before bulling them.
2 montbeliarde x fr cows milks as good as friesans
Had 5 pure breed brown swiss culled 3 in 4 years I think like pure holstins they need to be looked to after but they always went in calf.
They can be bigger than friesans but would have a bit less milk
2 pure breed rotbunts good milkers same as friesans
I have 25 frx heifers to calf this year a mix of norwegian red ai.
brown swiss ai. and a rotbunt stock bull they are in calf to british fr.
So I might know a bit more next year.
So far I found with the cross breeds I have they will all milk around 5 gallons during the summer months on grass alone and are hardy I beleve in high breed vigor no problems so far.
My farm is on the side of a hill in kerry and I could never get 8 or 10 gallon from holstins and any I had didnt last too long.
As with any cows you will get the best from ai rather than a stock bull.
My protin and bfat has improved slightly across the herd but I still have a lot of pure fr cows so I might know more next year when the heifers have all calved.

It looks like your doing a fair trial there, the BF calves of the xbreed heifers will be interesting, have you tried the NZ bulls? Its horses for course, pick the cow for your system, it takes time though.

Apart from milk and fertility, how are they in other aspects, temperment, SCC, calving ability etc?

funny man

i'm interested in your change over to br/fr whelan what was your reason? and how did you arrive at the decision to use br/fr did you look into other breeds and decide against them and also why do you rule out the use of jersey, i think br/fr is a road i could go down but i'm not sure it's so hard to get accurate information on other breeds and teagasc didn't seem to bother doing trails on br/fr, why i just don't. i would like to hear views on nz/fr as to how good are they but without figures it's very hard to make a decision.

whelan1

was on a farm walk last spring and saw jersey cross cows . they are so small , would cause me no end of trouble in the parlour,the reason i went for br/fr was to bulk the holsteind up a bit ... think the holsteins are gone too extreme

djmc

I find the temperment of the cows very good especialy the brown swiss and sweedish red.
by having calves feed milk in field keeped in small padocks and calling them when moving or feeding them has helped a lot with temperment of the whole heard.
Had problems with scc but am sorting it out deosan pre dip and better hygine
is stoping the spread from old to young cows
I cant cull too many as I am trying to build up numbers
scc can be spread to any cow if hygine is not right
No problems with calving but I think that is to do with feeding
If I think silage is poor I give them 2kg meal/cow a day before calving to keep condition on and give them energy to calf

jeff greene

djmc wrote: »

I find the temperment of the cows very good especialy the brown swiss and sweedish red.
by having calves feed milk in field keeped in small padocks and calling them when moving or feeding them has helped a lot with temperment of the whole heard.
Had problems with scc but am sorting it out deosan pre dip and better hygine
is stoping the spread from old to young cows
I cant cull too many as I am trying to build up numbers
scc can be spread to any cow if hygine is not right
No problems with calving but I think that is to do with feeding
If I think silage is poor I give them 2kg meal/cow a day before calving to keep condition on and give them energy to calf

Yeah, you have to work hard to have good SCC, any high SCC cows, I dip the clusters in peracidic acid to stop the spread, it works. Hopefully one day i will install a Clusterflush system, but for now the bucket works.

With good cull prices it may be false economy keeping really high ones?

stanflt

jeff greene wrote: »

Yeah, you have to work hard to have good SCC, any high SCC cows, I dip the clusters in peracidic acid to stop the spread, it works. Hopefully one day i will install a Clusterflush system, but for now the bucket works.

With good cull prices it may be false economy keeping really high ones?

i put in the clustercleanse with my new parlour- six months later avg scc hasnt changed

jeff greene

stanflt wrote: »

i put in the clustercleanse with my new parlour- six months later avg scc hasnt changed

I heard it was good is your SCC high or OK, it works in stopping cross infection. if you have high SCC cows going into the tank it won't reduce it.

stanflt

jeff greene wrote: »

I heard it was good is your SCC high or OK, it works in stopping cross infection. if you have high SCC cows going into the tank it won't reduce it.

avg around 210000 every month. milk record monthly so no high cows going into tank. at a recent lmp meeting researchers said anything over 200000 was considered an epedemick

funny man

whelan1 wrote: »

was on a farm walk last spring and saw jersey cross cows . they are so small , would cause me no end of trouble in the parlour,the reason i went for br/fr was to bulk the holsteind up a bit ... think the holsteins are gone too extreme

fair enough that's the kind of advise i'm looking for, so the jex maybe out cause all my buildings cubicles and parlour are suited to large cows.

Still looking for figures on empty rates for 14weeks can anyone help me???

has anyone used nz/fr in the past or any other breed and have enough of them to compare empty rates.

dar31

stanflt wrote: »

avg around 210000 every month. milk record monthly so no high cows going into tank. at a recent lmpmeeting researchers said anything over 200000 was considered an epedemick

showing your age there.

empty rate last spring '10 12%, '09 8%, 08 16%,
1300gl cow some brown swiss blood 15+ years ago now, some 2nd lact nor red. bar the reds all from stock bulls
ebi €28 fert something like €24.
just done diy ai course, for the sole reason of solids was on volume payment up to this month.
will consider jersey on hfs in the next few years.
down through the years we have always considered a fertile cow to be better than a milky one, not many liquid producers looked that way up until the last 5yrs +

funny man

dar31 wrote: »

showing your age there.

empty rate last spring '10 12%, '09 8%, 08 16%,
1300gl cow some brown swiss blood 15+ years ago now, some 2nd lact nor red. bar the reds all from stock bulls
ebi €28 fert something like €24.
just done diy ai course, for the sole reason of solids was on volume payment up to this month.
will consider jersey on hfs in the next few years.
down through the years we have always considered a fertile cow to be better than a milky one, not many liquid producers looked that way up until the last 5yrs +

this is the sort of info i need to make an educated decision as i believe i have to introduce another breed because the ho/fr breed is just not going back in calf and no OMAN son is going to sort this infertility mess that i am in.

jeff greene

funny man wrote: »

this is the sort of info i need to make an educated decision as i believe i have to introduce another breed because the ho/fr breed is just not going back in calf and no OMAN son is going to sort this infertility mess that i am in.

Teagasc are your best bet, they have alot of trials done in different breeds, I can't seem to find the studies online, but have a look here,

http://http://www.dairycrossbreeding.com/

http://http://www.selectsires.com/dairy/crossbreeding_101.pdf

There is alot more, just google.

stanflt

funny man wrote: »

this is the sort of info i need to make an educated decision as i believe i have to introduce another breed because the ho/fr breed is just not going back in calf and no OMAN son is going to sort this infertility mess that i am in.

try Fowlerstown Stan FLT. will sort all your troubles

5live

I used a lot of MRI years ago and found them good but i had a small quota so when that freed up i used holstein with good fertility(judged on rump width and protein%:rolleyes: but it worked). The rotbund may suit your situation too as they are a nice crossbred with good protein and excellent fertility and should cross well on holstein type cows. I also used jerseys and really like them but dont like giving away bull calves but the cows are excellent and really easy to calve even with continental bulls(big pelvis by the cows). Even using the jersey though, i assume you will be using high EBI straws, most of the friesian bulls on the approved list have better fertility figures so all (?) you are gaining is hybrid vigour (E100 a cow i believe from teagasc figures)

jeff greene

stanflt wrote: »

try Fowlerstown Stan FLT. will sort all your troubles

You have recommended him a few times, anything we should know?:rolleyes:


He is a solid bull, good pedigree for fertility with RUUD and GMI there, have you alot of faith in genomics?

whelan1

jeff greene wrote: »

You have recommended him a few times, anything we should know?:rolleyes:


He is a solid bull, good pedigree for fertility with RUUD and GMI there, have you alot of faith in genomics?

mmmmm interesting that his user name is the same as the bull:o stan flt , not from meath by any chance

jeff greene

whelan1 wrote: »

mmmmm interesting that his user name is the same as the bull:o stan flt , not from meath by any chance

Busted:p

Well done on getting a bull into AI, i hope he does well, he certainly has the figurs

stanflt

jeff greene wrote: »

You have recommended him a few times, anything we should know?:rolleyes:


He is a solid bull, good pedigree for fertility with RUUD and GMI there, have you alot of faith in genomics?

have a lot of faith in genomics. got some bulls and cows tested last week. reason for testing the cows is for potential bull mothers. have a couple of really super cows that are none oman, and not already bull mothers;)

jeff greene

stanflt wrote: »

have a lot of faith in genomics. got some bulls and cows tested last week. reason for testing the cows is for potential bull mothers. have a couple of really super cows that are none oman, and not already bull mothers;)

I haven’t used any genomic bulls yet, although I have Aftershock ordered. For similer money I prefer the progeny tested bulls, better reliability and you get a liner.

The potential bull dams you have tested, what were the reason for picking them, pedigree or their performance? I guess with genomics the pedigree will have less to do with it.

stanflt

jeff greene wrote: »

I haven’t used any genomic bulls yet, although I have Aftershock ordered. For similer money I prefer the progeny tested bulls, better reliability and you get a liner.

The potential bull dams you have tested, what were the reason for picking them, pedigree or their performance? I guess with genomics the pedigree will have less to do with it.

no its all about the pedigree. without pedigree you cant have performance. tested a cow with 475kg milk 26.0kg [EMAIL="fat@+0.13"]fat@+0.13[/EMAIL], 17.0kg protein @0.02. shes from a ex90.3 cow. i have a feeling shes actually better.

doing this to hopefully get one step ahead. herd took a battering 3 years ago-lost 32

stanflt

jeff greene wrote: »

I haven’t used any genomic bulls yet, although I have Aftershock ordered. For similer money I prefer the progeny tested bulls, better reliability and you get a liner.

The potential bull dams you have tested, what were the reason for picking them, pedigree or their performance? I guess with genomics the pedigree will have less to do with it.

you should have a look at DXL DELABERGE LURECK. I Reckon hes what your looking for, higher ebi, kg fat and protein+% higher fertility and great linear. hes also sexed. ive used 20 straws already