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Media bias?

2

Comments

  • #32
    prinz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    Nodin wrote: »
    You'll find there's a high level of co-operation between the PA and the Israelis. Rather nauseatingly so, in fact.

    You find it nauseating that they would try to catch murderers?


  • #33
    JohnathanM
    Closed Accounts Posts: 410 ✭✭JohnathanM


    prinz wrote: »
    If a friend or family member was murdered in Israel or in West Bank/Gaza, yeah I'd have more faith in the Israelis to catch and prosecute the killer.

    So your assertion is not anymore that Palestinian authorities do not seek to prosecute those who would attack Israel, but simply that they do not have a legal system of worth in place or even the moral standing to investigate a murder? You've removed the political angle, and simply want to make an unsubstatiated claim that the Israeli police force is somehow superior?


  • #34
    prinz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    JohnathanM wrote: »
    So your assertion is not anymore that Palestinian authorities do not seek to prosecute those who would attack Israel...

    I never made that assertion. I simply asked a question, referring to the fact that the very possibility of bringing up statistics etc against the Israelis goes to show that they are, to some degree, transparent and follow some sort of due process (or not as the case may be), but at least there's a record of numbers and some public accountability so nodin there can show how 90% of claims against settlers aren't followed up.
    JohnathanM wrote: »
    but simply that they do not have a legal system of worth in place or even the moral standing to investigate a murder? You've removed the political angle, and simply want to make an unsubstatiated claim that the Israeli police force is somehow superior?

    Are you going to make a substantiated claim that it isn't?


  • #35
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    prinz wrote: »
    You find it nauseating that they would try to catch murderers?

    They're clamping down on legitmate armed resistance to an occupation/colonisation of their own people. Vichy, essentially.
    prinz wrote: »
    It was a genuine question........

    No, I'm afraid not.
    prinz wrote: »
    One which it appears you don't have an answer to........

    I showed that the PA shares intelligence and co-operates fully with Israeli intelligence in clamping down on militants with its territory, which is indeed an answer.
    prinz wrote: »
    Perhaps we should wait until this poor kids murder has been dealt with one way or the other before start telling people they are wrong? ........

    You stated
    The settlers will more than likely be held to account for their actions, ........

    Thats already shown not to be true. Should they be convicted of murder, it would in fact be a rare exception to the majority of cases, as shown here
    http://media.yesh-din.org/geninfo.asp?gencatid=20
    prinz wrote: »
    If a friend or family member was murdered in Israel or in West Bank/Gaza, yeah I'd have more faith in the Israelis to catch and prosecute the killer. ........

    Based on? I'm sure if they were killed by Palestinians they'd be all to co-operative, otherwise....

    This man and 13 others of the same organisation were killed by the IDF
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/suffolk/4534620.stm
    ..no convictions....


  • #36
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    prinz wrote: »
    I never made that assertion. I simply asked a question, referring to the fact that the very possibility of bringing up statistics etc against the Israelis goes to show that they are, to some degree, transparent and follow some sort of due process (or not as the case may be), but at least there's a record of numbers and some public accountability so nodin there can show how 90% of claims against settlers aren't followed up.

    A rather pathetic attempt to move the goalposts.

    You'll find that the system has no accountability to Palestinians, who are not dealt with by Israeli law.


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  • #37
    JohnathanM
    Closed Accounts Posts: 410 ✭✭JohnathanM


    prinz wrote: »
    I never made that assertion.

    Reading it again I'll change "assertion" to "directed question". :)
    prinz wrote: »
    ...they are, to some degree, transparent and follow some sort of due process (or not as the case may be), but at least there's a record.

    Process and record is irrelevant when it doesn't serve to uphold law, and in Israel it very often does not as other posters have shown. I've already argued that the legal structure of Israel has supported illegal expansion and other acts in direct violation of international law. We can see very clearly that it has done it, and even read proceedings of crimes where there was no conviction. So what?
    prinz wrote: »
    Are you going to make a substantiated claim that it isn't?

    I don't need to. Why would I?


  • #38
    prinz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    Nodin wrote: »
    They're clamping down on legitmate armed resistance to an occupation/colonisation of their own people. Vichy, essentially.....

    Blowing up niteclubs, hotels, buses, supermarkets, etc is perhaps "legitimate armed resistance" in your twilight zone.
    Nodin wrote: »
    No, I'm afraid not......

    Really? You can tell that? Oh wait, no you can't.
    Nodin wrote: »
    I showed that the PA shares intelligence and co-operates fully with Israeli intelligence in clamping down on militants with its territory, which is indeed an answer.......

    It's not an answer. It's not even relevant to the question asked.
    Nodin wrote: »
    Thats already shown not to be true. Should they be convicted of murder, it would in fact be a rare exception to the majority of cases, as shown here
    http://media.yesh-din.org/geninfo.asp?gencatid=20........

    Do you have a breakdown of what that 10/90 is made up of? How many cold blooded murders are included in the 90% not followed up on?
    Nodin wrote: »
    Based on? I'm sure if they were killed by Palestinians they'd be all to co-operative, otherwise........

    Based on?
    Nodin wrote: »
    This man and 13 others of the same organisation were killed by the IDF
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/suffolk/4534620.stm
    ..no convictions....

    Yes, and there should have been...where does that leave us? How many people were convicted of the killing of Kevin Joyce?


  • #39
    prinz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    JohnathanM wrote: »
    Process and record is irrelevant when it doesn't serve to uphold law, and in Israel it very often does not as other posters have shown. I've already argued that the legal structure of Israel has supported illegal expansion and other acts in direct violation of international law. We can see very clearly that it has done it, and even read proceedings of crimes where there was no conviction. So what?

    So nothing there would lead me to automatically assume the Israelis will ignore this murder in the OP. I'll believe that something will be done, others can sit back and believe nothing will be done. Only time will tell.


  • #40
    wes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,749 ✭✭✭✭wes


    Well, I think it would be appropriate to call this particular settler a terrorist, personally.

    As for bias from the BBC, they aren't quite as pro-Palestinian as some supporters of Israel make them out to be. They just aren't 110% on the side of Israel, which to the more gun ho Israel supporters makes you completely biased against Israel.

    As for this murder, the perepertrator will at best get a slap on the wrist, and thats if there is any punishment at all. As other posters have shown, settlers regularly act with impunity, and very often with the active support of the state of Israel.


  • #41
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    prinz wrote: »
    .....................

    Yes, and there should have been...where does that leave us? How many people were convicted of the killing of Kevin Joyce?

    Kevin Joyce wasn't killed in the West Bank, or even the occupied territories. Kevin Joyce was killed before the PA was formed. Kevin Joyces killer was executed in 1984.

    I find it rather repellent the way you need to use a man never buried to faciltate your need to shift the goalposts again.

    You always get so frantic when you're exposed....
    prinz wrote: »
    .....................
    So nothing there would lead me to automatically assume the Israelis will ignore this murder in the OP

    Again, utterly incorrect, as noted by any number of Israeli and international organisations.


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  • #42
    prinz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    Nodin wrote: »
    I find it rather repellent the way you need to use a man never buried to faciltate your need to shift the goalposts again.
    You always get so frantic when you're exposed.....

    Oh I get you now, it's only ok to use the unrelated deaths of people who were buried?


  • #43
    JohnathanM
    Closed Accounts Posts: 410 ✭✭JohnathanM


    prinz wrote: »
    Oh I get you now, it's only ok to use the unrelated deaths of people who were buried?

    That was the last of your limited credibility, gone.


  • #44
    prinz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    JohnathanM wrote: »
    That was the last of your limited credibility, gone.

    Ouch. I feel really bad now. What do you think the killing of Iain Hook by an IDF sniper has to do with the case in the OP?


  • #45
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    prinz wrote: »
    Ouch. I feel really bad now. What do you think the killing of Iain Hook by an IDF sniper has to do with the case in the OP?

    Iain Hook and 13 others, for which nobody was ever convicted. You brought this into the thread by way of your comment
    If a friend or family member was murdered in Israel or in West Bank/Gaza, yeah I'd have more faith in the Israelis to catch and prosecute the killer.

    I was, rather obviously, showing that such faith is not based in fact.


  • #46
    prinz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    Nodin wrote: »
    Iain Hook and 13 others, for which nobody was ever convicted. You brought this into the thread by way of your comment
    I was, rather obviously, showing that such faith is not based in fact.

    ...and how many unsolved murders are there in this country? Yet I still have faith in our legal system ( although sentencing, not so much).


  • #47
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    prinz wrote: »
    ...and how many unsolved murders are there in this country? Yet I still have faith in our legal system ( although sentencing, not so much).

    O that's dire, dire stuff.

    The direct comparison is 'How many unsolved murders are there committed by members of the Defence forces/Gardai in this country?' (The answer being none, that I'm aware of at any rate.)


  • #48
    prinz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    Nodin wrote: »
    O that's dire, dire stuff.
    The direct comparison is 'How many unsolved murders are there committed
    by members of the Defence forces/Gardai in this country?' (The answer being none, that I'm aware of at any rate.)

    Indeed, which would in turn beg the question why you were using the actions of a trigger happy IDF sniper in direct comparison to the actions of a murdering settler? Now that we can't compare Defence forces with regular killers that is..


  • #49
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    prinz wrote: »
    Indeed, which would in turn beg the question why you were using the actions of a trigger happy IDF sniper in direct comparison to the actions of a murdering settler? Now that we can't compare Defence forces with regular killers that is..

    Another attempted goal post shift?

    I explained exactly why I brought up the actions of Snipers back here
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=70334186&postcount=45


  • #50
    prinz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    Nodin wrote: »
    I explained exactly why I brought up the actions of Snipers back here
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=70334186&postcount=45

    I still don't understand what a murder by an IDF sniper in Jenin, West Bank, has to do with anything? If my hypothetical family member/friend was knocking about a city in the West Bank, which only months before hand had been the seen of a battle, then yeah they would more than likely be killed by members of the IDF who may never be caught or prosetcuted, simply due to the firepower they lay down.

    However I was in fact referring to John Doe tourist in Israel. Killed during a mugging for example.

    Similarly I'd have faith in the justice system in the US invesitgating a street murder in downtown US city, but not the same faith in the US system in investigating a death in US-controlled areas of Afghanistan.

    Plus I have acknowledged that someone should have been caught and faced justice for the murders of Iain Hook and his Palestinian coworkers.


  • #51
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    prinz wrote: »
    I still don't understand what a murder by an IDF sniper in Jenin, West Bank, has to do with anything? If my hypothetical family member/friend was knocking about a city in the West Bank, which only months before hand had been the seen of a battle, then yeah they would more than likely be killed by members of the IDF who may never be caught or prosetcuted, simply due to the firepower they lay down..

    A great number have been killed by direct rifle fire, frequently single shots to the head.
    prinz wrote: »
    However I was in fact referring to John Doe tourist in Israel. Killed during a mugging for example..


    No, you stated
    If a friend or family member was murdered in Israel or in West Bank/Gaza,

    There were no caveats re it being confined to Israel, or a tourist, or a mugging. This is a tangent we went on by your comments.

    And of course, your inability to say "I didn't know that" early on.
    prinz wrote: »
    Similarly I'd have faith in the justice system in the US invesitgating a street murder in downtown US city, but not the same faith in the US system in investigating a death in US-controlled areas of Afghanistan.,

    Au contraire. The difference is rather more stark and depends one who the suspect is, or is believed to be, and who the victim is, or is believed to be.


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  • #52
    prinz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    Nodin wrote: »
    There were no caveats re it being confined to Israel, or a tourist, or a mugging. This is a tangent we went on by your comments....

    I think for any reasonable person reading what I was posting it was clear that I was referring to the Israeli police and justice system dealing with a murder in Israeli and the P.A./Hamas police and justice system dealing with a murder in their areas. I was not trying to argue about how effective the PA would be at convicting a criminal for a crime in Tel Aviv or how effective the Israelis would be at prosecuting a crime in Ramallah.

    I was referring to how confident I'd be in each jurisdiction at a murder being dealt with by the respective justice systems. I know this might be too much for you to get your head around, but there are crimes outside of the Palestinian/Israeli struggle, but there are.


  • #53
    marcsignal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,072 ✭✭✭marcsignal


    Interesting John Pilger doco about 'embedded journalism' in conflict hot spots.
    Touches on reporting in the ME @ 1:03:00
    It appears that in many cases, journalists can't tell the truth. :(

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8SrRTEW338


  • #54
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    prinz wrote: »
    I think for any reasonable person reading what I was posting it was clear that I was referring to the Israeli police and justice system dealing with a murder in Israeli and the P.A./Hamas police and justice system dealing with a murder in their areas..

    No, any reasonable person would have read what you'd written
    If a friend or family member was murdered in Israel or in West Bank/Gaza, yeah I'd have more faith in the Israelis to catch and prosecute the killer

    If your friend of family member was killed by the IDF, you'd have very little reason to assume that, and none if they were Palestinian.

    And of course, your initial comment, which brought about this nonsense
    prinz wrote: »
    The settlers will more than likely be held to account for their actions

    is incorrect.


  • #55
    prinz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    Nodin wrote: »
    No, any reasonable person would have read what you'd written If your friend of family member was killed by the IDF, you'd have very little reason to assume that, and none if they were Palestinian..

    Except I never mentioned the IDF in that post you just quoted, you made that jump all by yourself. When you hear of people being murdered do you automatically assume it's the work of the army/ gardaí? I don't.


  • #56
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    prinz wrote: »
    Except I never mentioned the IDF in that post you just quoted, you made that jump all by yourself. When you hear of people being murdered do you automatically assume it's the work of the army/ gardaí? I don't.

    Dear o dear. You stated
    If a friend or family member was murdered in Israel or in West Bank/Gaza, yeah I'd have more faith in the Israelis to catch and prosecute the killer

    to which I replied "If your friend of family member was killed by the IDF, you'd have very little reason to assume that, and none if they were Palestinian." which, given that the underlying theme and argument is the lack of impartiality in the Israeli prosecution of crimes, specifically those committed by settlers, is a logical thing to point out.


  • #57
    prinz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    Nodin wrote: »
    Dear o dear..

    I know.
    Nodin wrote: »
    to which I replied "If your friend of family member was killed by the IDF, you'd have very little reason to assume that, and none if they were Palestinian." which, given that the underlying theme and argument is the lack of impartiality in the Israeli prosecution of crimes, specifically those committed by settlers, is a logical thing to point out.

    In other words you ignore the actual point and revert back to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict and "IDF R EVUL" mantra.


  • #58
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    prinz wrote: »
    I know.

    In other words you ignore the actual point and revert back to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict and "IDF R EVUL" mantra.

    No, I'm referring to the bias, your ignorance of which, and failure to admit to same, brought about the last 3 or so pages of attempted goal post shifts, straw men and increasing desparation on your part.

    I might add that everything that I've stated here is backed up by research from B'tselem, Yesh Din, Hamoked, HRW and Amnesty, so a bit less of the "IDF.....mantra" nonsense please.


  • #59
    prinz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    Nodin wrote: »
    No, I'm referring to the bias, your ignorance of which, and failure to admit to same, brought about the last 3 or so pages of attempted goal post shifts, straw men and increasing desparation on your part..

    There hasn't been any of that but nevermind, usual tactics.
    Nodin wrote: »
    I might add that everything that I've stated here is backed up by research from B'tselem, Yesh Din, Hamoked, HRW and Amnesty, so a bit less of the "IDF.....mantra" nonsense please.

    Well that's exactly what it is when you insist on reverting back to the IDF when I have made clear I wasn't referring to someone being murdered by the IDF in the hypothetical.


  • #60
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    prinz wrote: »
    There hasn't been any of that but nevermind, usual tactics.



    Well that's exactly what it is when you insist on reverting back to the IDF when I have made clear I wasn't referring to someone being murdered by the IDF in the hypothetical.

    No, I was referring - as I clearly stated - to the bias, which is at the root of the problem and why your initial claim was wrong. A claim that will remain wrong, even if you do think that getting the last post in will change the fact.


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  • #61
    gsxr1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,167 ✭✭✭gsxr1


    BBC are not so bad

    After living in the states for a few years you see serious propaganda from the Jewish run large TV networks.. FOX news when it does spare a few lines to world news tell a completely different story to the BBC. They are all very pro Israel


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