Charles Haughey Has Died + Poll

nesf wrote:

Give me a competent but corrupt leader over an honest but incompentent one any day. Then, maybe I'm a realist.

Really? I'm not a fan of your reality. Corruption and competence hardly go hand in hand. Corruption impacts upon performance. It breeds contempt for legal, rightful processes and kills competition - depending on who is slipping that brown envelope into your back pocket. Corruption creates a culture in which the fat cats get fatter, wealth buys political decisions and democratic principles become of secondary importance. Its naïve to imagine that it doesn’t have an effect upon competence – but I guess it is all in your assessment of what constitutes competence - and for that matter, corruption. I mean just how much corruption could you tolerate before you're voting for the incompetent saint? Where do you draw the line? With a Taoiseach, a Minister, a HSE executive? Tolerating it, or compromising on political integrity at all is completely unacceptable IMO. Ultimately, there is always a price to pay for corruption - it may not have a direct impact upon your own particular lifestyle, but there may be an economic, social, political or cultural cost. Just look at the huge costs of the tribunals and the distrust and apathy about politics. Haughey wasn't solely responsible, but he had a huge part to play.

The point is that the choice doesn't have to be so stark - there are plenty of competent politicians who wish to serve the country well, with integrity in every political party. Stamping out the Haughey political culture means that no party would ever tolerate such behaviour again and that the political system itself would demand and expect ethical practice. Conor74, I honestly hope that your feelings on this point aren't representative of the wider FF community. I hope the party spirit and ethos is firmly committed to honest and competent political action in the future.

Saintly

Deleted User wrote:

Hmmmm, I have studied the paragraph and cannot see how it relates to the life and times (and crimes) of Charle Haughey. You just having a go at the writing style of those who disagree with you?

Nope, still saying what i've been saying all along, that i don't agree with the attitude of "sure their all up to it" "best of a bad lot" "we'd all do the same" "the good he did outweighs the bad" is all.

I'd have thought that, once again, was obvious. Remember, i'm the kind of the guy that just expects more from our political leaders. Shame on me.

Deleted User wrote:

I hope so too, but I suspect my view is one shared not only by those in FF but across the whole political spectrum by anyone who believes in realpolitik over idealism. It's why many in FG still vote for Lowry in huge numbers. Your aspirations for a cleaner healtheir political world are noble, given what happens in just about every country in Europe I think they are not attainable...

I take your point about idealism, let me clarify – I don't expect corruption to completely disappear from politics, we all know that money and power breed contempt. I do think however that there has been a shift in some aspects of political culture since the Haughey era, when he refused to answer questions about his personal acquisitions and wealth to today, when Ivor had to go because of his free home improvements. My hope is that this culture will continue to change and improve. Corruption does occur across Europe, however to varying degrees. It can be the exception or the norm. I do find it utterly depressing that someone in FF would consider serving under/supporting a corrupt, if competent leader again, in any circumstances. You can vote a crap government out, weeding out corruption and it's long term effects is a far harder task. Personally, I believe that political systems can operate in ways that minimise or maximise possibilities for corrupt behaviour. Having or tolerating a corrupt leader just allows it breed everywhere else.

As for Lowry, you're absolutely right. People still vote for him, mostly because he is known as competent local representative. That's democracy, we have to tolerate that. His corruption, we don't. Hence his departure from FG and his non existent chance of ever serving at Ministerial level.

nesf wrote:

1) You're being overly simplistic here, I never said corruption and competence go hand in hand I just said that they weren't mutually exclusive.

Not mutually exclusive, but corruption certainly impacts upon competency, reducing a leader's ability to make competent, unbiased decisions. I was just flipping the coin over on that point.

nesf wrote:

2) Corruption does damage efficiency, I agree, however when you are speaking in those terms you have to look at corruption at a nationwide level, and not soley as embodied by a particular leader. Corrupt figures don't just appear in uncorrupted societies, there is almost always a route from the ground up that produces them. Corrupt leaders don't exist in a vacuum.

Absolutely - which is why I didn't pin the blame for all of the ills of Irish society on CJH. The point is that corruption at more senior levels such as those of Taoiseach/political leaders has far more serious consequences for society than say the corruption of a local social welfare officer/ civil servant etc. I am all for rooting out corruption at any level - so to even consider it acceptable at senior political level is a completely alien concept to me, in any circumstances.

nesf wrote:

3) It is the nature of capatalism that the fat cats get richer and the poor get poorer. Corruption is not responsible for it, it is a product of this trend.

Corruption can occur in any political system. It occurs when someone doesn't play by the agreed rules or accepted norms of a society.

nesf wrote:

As for the rest. Um, retrospect is fantastic isn't it?

Yes, retrospection and hindsight is fantastic - It means that we can learn from past mistakes and ensure that political culture and climate changes for the better. That's why I found your assertion that you could tolerate a corrupt leader in specific circumstances, strange.

Saintly.

I'll be taking a sh1t and a piss on his grave at some time.

When I saw the thread I thought the evil corrupt bastard was back to tell us that we need to tighten our belts