How come its networking in London and cronyism in Ireland.

nosey rosie · 25-01-2011 07:01PM

pigeonbutler wrote: »

nosey rosie wrote: »

Political power isn't handed down through families in London, the way it is in Ireland. Brian Lenihan ( son of a famous political father ) was my lecturer in Evidence Law back in the nineties. He didn't show up half the time; beyond doubt, the worst lecturer I had in four years at T.C.D. Too busy earning a fortune as a barrister to fulfill his commitments to paying students. The last person, with his attendance record, you'd expect to be running the country in future...
:mad:[/QUOTE

Cronyism can't get someone into the Dáil. He was elected in 1996, 1997, 2002 and 2007 by the people of Dublin West. It's an insult to them to suggest they voted that way only because of his surname.
Yet years later there he is, and the brother too, both competing for the leadership. Its not what you know but who you know in Ireland]

So its mere co-incidence? You haven't noticed how power/ T.D.ships run through families in Ireland? The surname is almost a brand...
Achhh, I can't take you seriously, jog on...

Biggins · 25-01-2011 07:04PM

mariaalice wrote: »

Had a very interesting discussion with someone about this recently.
When anyone looks for advice about emigrating to the London one of the first thing people will advise is to join a GAA club in London because the networking will help you get a job.. fair enough you might think.
but
If someone dose the same thing in Ireland its cronysim and jobs for the boys, its not what you know its who you know etc.
Why the difference?

Joining a GAA org doesn't automatically ensure you get a job or go up a corporate ladder by just enrolling - whereas cromyism is that your already attached to an organisation, and(or) know of each others existence in a friend/acquaintance relationship - or in business with them/it and by EQUAL back-scratching, favour for possible favour (in the past or possibly in the future) one IS assured that one will be gain reward by co-existing in a unofficial relationship of promise or beholden to one another.

Joining a GAA org (and we only use the GAA for use of example reasons ONLY) does not mean you will succeed, it means that you might succeed at some stage further down the line, in most cases with equal hope and possible success in the future - as with every other person in such an org who might stand same chance.

* One method is an opened door to chance of future possibilities, by an individual under his/her own steam.
* The other is a person getting into a relationship with another/org' that is akin to a sure-bet, in an automatic assumed premise that there will be bi-cooperation in looking after ones other business and backs - for favour, reward, etc!

One is trying open doors and try avail of future opportunities as with the rest already there - the other is a person walking in knowing they will be called to return said duty towards others by possible implied duty to do so - by a number of alternative methods when called upon.

K-9 · 25-01-2011 08:23PM

nosey rosie wrote: »

Political power isn't handed down through families in London, the way it is in Ireland. Brian Lenihan ( son of a famous political father ) was my lecturer in Evidence Law back in the nineties. He didn't show up half the time; beyond doubt, the worst lecturer I had in four years at T.C.D. Too busy earning a fortune as a barrister to fulfill his commitments to paying students. The last person, with his attendance record, you'd expect to be running the country in future...

Yet years later there he is, and the brother too, both competing for the leadership. Its not what you know but who you know in Ireland :mad:

England has the public school thing, Clegg and Cameron being a good example with the Lib Dems and Tories.

nosey rosie · 25-01-2011 08:44PM

K-9 wrote: »

England has the public school thing, Clegg and Cameron being a good example with the Lib Dems and Tories.

Not to the same extent as Ireland though... and this U.K Toff phenomenon... aren't they are farely rare? Remember John Major and Thatcher...who preceded Cameron as Tory P.M.s... they were self-made.
I think Power hands down - from generation - or cliques in Ireland. England, for its faults, is somewhat free of it.

Fulton Crown · 25-01-2011 08:51PM

rainbowdrop wrote: »

Why have I never heard the word 'cronyism' before?

Is it very hot in Uranus ?

Rabble Rabble · 27-01-2011 03:19PM

nosey rosie wrote: »

pigeonbutler wrote: »

So its mere co-incidence? You haven't noticed how power/ T.D.ships run through families in Ireland? The surname is almost a brand...
Achhh, I can't take you seriously, jog on...

If people elect someone thats up to them. Mostly people born to politicains are more interested in that others, so it goes.

England has this. Italy has this. American has this ( Kennedys) although to a lesser extent.

In any case "who you know" is not limited to Politics. In general who you know is far more important in the UK, thats the point of the public schools.

Rabble Rabble · 27-01-2011 03:25PM

nosey rosie wrote: »

Not to the same extent as Ireland though... and this U.K Toff phenomenon... aren't they are farely rare? Remember John Major and Thatcher...who preceded Cameron as Tory P.M.s... they were self-made.
I think Power hands down - from generation - or cliques in Ireland. England, for its faults, is somewhat free of it.

You really have no idea. Two public schools ( i.e. secondary schools) are responsible for about 40% of the cabinet and shadow cabinet. Two universities - generally taking their input from those schools and a few other public ( i.e. private) schools are responsible for about 80% of the parliament, and cabinet and shadow cabinet. This wasnt the case in the 80's. It got worse.

As for the BBC. 60% Oxbridge. Pop music. 60% Oxbridge. Famous comedians - 60% Oxbridge ( a good percentage from a play company called the footlights in Oxford). The City - 80% Oxbridge.

Basically, if you know where someone is born in England you have a good chance of telling what they cant be. The bottom 90% cant be in parliament, journalists, bankers, BBC managers, and more.

( Oxbridge means a combination of Oxford and Cambridge).

humanji · 27-01-2011 03:40PM

Cool Mo D wrote: »

So what exactly is the point of getting these contacts if you will never use them for anything? Getting a job because you know someone is not cronyism. Getting a job only because you know someone is.

Is making friends the same as getting married? You will marry someone you are friends with, but you won't marry all your friends. See? One can happen because of the other, but it isn't certain to happen.

Networking increases the chances of getting a job. Cronyism guarantees a job.

Fremen · 27-01-2011 03:56PM

Rabble Rabble wrote: »

You really have no idea. Two public schools ( i.e. secondary schools) are responsible for about 40% of the cabinet and shadow cabinet. Two universities - generally taking their input from those schools and a few other public ( i.e. private) schools are responsible for about 80% of the parliament, and cabinet and shadow cabinet. This wasnt the case in the 80's. It got worse.

As for the BBC. 60% Oxbridge. Pop music. 60% Oxbridge. Famous comedians - 60% Oxbridge ( a good percentage from a play company called the footlights in Oxford). The City - 80% Oxbridge.

Basically, if you know where someone is born in England you have a good chance of telling what they cant be. The bottom 90% cant be in parliament, journalists, bankers, BBC managers, and more.

( Oxbridge means a combination of Oxford and Cambridge).

The fact that someone goes to Oxford or Cambridge doesn't necessarily mean they come from a privileged background. It does mean they worked their ass off in school though. Oxford and Cambridge are no more expensive than anywhere else to attend - it's not like the US where you have to drop thirty five grand a year to go to Harvard. IIRC it's about five grand a year to go to an Oxbridge university.

Students at the likes of Eton are expected to work like mad bastards, whereas joe bloggs at your average comprehensive school is given the choice, and typically chooses not to.

K-9 · 27-01-2011 04:07PM

Fremen wrote: »

The fact that someone goes to Oxford or Cambridge doesn't necessarily mean they come from a privileged background. It does mean they worked their ass off in school though. Oxford and Cambridge are no more expensive than anywhere else to attend - it's not like the US where you have to drop thirty five grand a year to go to Harvard. IIRC it's about five grand a year to go to an Oxbridge university.

Students at the likes of Eton are expected to work like mad bastards, whereas joe bloggs at your average comprehensive school is given the choice, and typically chooses not to.

I think his point was that while some people not from a privileged background can and do break through, if you come from a certain family or class or area, you have more chance of it, less barriers as such.

It's a bit like FF. Being part of a family dynasty definitely helps and the electorate are as bad as the parties in that regard, but there are exceptions like Michael Martin.

whydoibother? · 27-01-2011 11:50PM

I think the difference between legitimate networking and cronyism is whether you get the job on merit or not. Basically, if you got talk to someone, work with them, impress them etc. and they then give you further opportunities that's a legitimate contact you've made yourself. I'd call it networking. On the other hand, if Daddy gets you a job in his friends company, and you have it for no other reason than you're your parents child, that's cronyism. It's not based on merit. This extends to giving someone a job because of their political persuasion, what social groups they're part of, or any other illegitimate reason.

Rabble Rabble · 28-01-2011 03:29PM

Fremen wrote: »

The fact that someone goes to Oxford or Cambridge doesn't necessarily mean they come from a privileged background. It does mean they worked their ass off in school though. Oxford and Cambridge are no more expensive than anywhere else to attend - it's not like the US where you have to drop thirty five grand a year to go to Harvard. IIRC it's about five grand a year to go to an Oxbridge university.

Students at the likes of Eton are expected to work like mad bastards, whereas joe bloggs at your average comprehensive school is given the choice, and typically chooses not to.

The fact that someone is the son or daughter of a FF politician does not mean that they will get elected ( Sean Haughey has done little). That also takes work.

The fact that someone gets into the dail does not mean they came from a political background ( just, it helps).

FF candidates are expected to work hard at getting elected.

LordSutch · 28-01-2011 03:40PM

ejmaztec wrote: »

There's probably no point trying to find a job through a GAA connection in the UK, as you'd probably end up with an Irish boss. Most of the people that I know, who've worked for Irish bosses in the UK, didn't like being stitched up one bit, and only improved their situation by getting a job with anyone but.

London is one thing, but the UK . . . . . . .

SOooo many different regions, including the North!

marzic · 28-01-2011 03:50PM

Biggins wrote: »

Joining a GAA org doesn't automatically ensure you get a job or go up a corporate ladder by just enrolling - whereas cromyism is that your already attached to an organisation, and(or) know of each others existence in a friend/acquaintance relationship - or in business with them/it and by EQUAL back-scratching, favour for possible favour (in the past or possibly in the future) one IS assured that one will be gain reward by co-existing in a unofficial relationship of promise or beholden to one another.

Joining a GAA org (and we only use the GAA for use of example reasons ONLY) does not mean you will succeed, it means that you might succeed at some stage further down the line, in most cases with equal hope and possible success in the future - as with every other person in such an org who might stand same chance.

* One method is an opened door to chance of future possibilities, by an individual under his/her own steam.
* The other is a person getting into a relationship with another/org' that is akin to a sure-bet, in an automatic assumed premise that there will be bi-cooperation in looking after ones other business and backs - for favour, reward, etc!

One is trying open doors and try avail of future opportunities as with the rest already there - the other is a person walking in knowing they will be called to return said duty towards others by possible implied duty to do so - by a number of alternative methods when called upon.

Yea-I-know!

How come its networking in London and cronyism in Ireland.

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