Double Standards

neveah · 25-01-2011 11:22PM

Thanks for filling me in!:D

To be fair though, people may die everyday but that girl was murdered on her honeymoon, it was always going to make a big news story, even if she wasn't Mickey Harte's daughter that story would have been given wide coverage on Irish media. But anyway I digress....

back to Andy Gray and his antics.....nobody has answered the question I posted a few posts back.....

SugarHigh · 25-01-2011 11:22PM

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Well you get the ones screaming sexism when there's anti-woman stuff. Yet you don't see them complaining about sexism toward men. Surely that's a bit sexist no?

Anyway I'm certainly not blaming all women for this nonsense or condemning them for double standards. Just the whiny ones who seem to get their orgasms from being offended.

It's actually profitable to be easily offended. An Irish guys was paid thousands in compensation because he had to suffer the awful ordeal of hearing a bad irish joke.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZmxMlSTETo

Fight_Night · 25-01-2011 11:24PM

Gray deserved to be fired and likewise Keys deserves to get fired(and probably will if those leaks of him acting like an idiot keep popping up). They are representing Sky Sports who I presume want to be seen as a channel for both sexes not just males and their[Gray and Key's] actions do not reflect that of the companies and have resulted in bad publicity for Sky Sports and thus they get the sack.

And tbf they should have both been fired a long time ago, not because they were sexist, because they were shite at presenting and commentating.

Wolfe Tone · 25-01-2011 11:31PM

SugarHigh wrote: »

It's actually profitable to be easily offended. An Irish guys was paid thousands in compensation because he had to suffer the awful ordeal of hearing a bad irish joke.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZmxMlSTETo

God he is some arsehole. Always hated his videos.

SugarHigh · 25-01-2011 11:31PM

neveah wrote: »

Thanks for filling me in!:D
.

Is this a trap?:pac:

back to Andy Gray and his antics.....nobody has answered the question I posted a few posts back.....[

I was gonna but I think I've posted far too much in this thread. I agree what they did was dickish behavior and no I wouldn't do it. I also am fine with them being sacked as Sky have an image to protect so they should be able to sack anyone who fúcks with their image. My posts were aimed at government enforced punishments like the Irish guy suing because of an irish joke.

Their comments were completely unfair to the girl and clearly unfounded based on the decision she made during the match(Apparently it was a good one or something).

SugarHigh · 25-01-2011 11:33PM

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

God he is some arsehole. Aways hated his videos.

The youtube guy or the guy who sued?

Probably both:D

liah · 25-01-2011 11:43PM

SugarHigh wrote: »

I don't want my view to be enforced by law...you do. That is the important difference, you want the government to back you up I don't. I understand the reasons and I never denied there were positive results from the laws. There are positive results from positive discrimination that doesn't mean I have to agree with it.

I don't 'want' the government to back me up, you're the one who brought government into it in the first place. I reiterate: I was simply explaining possible reasons for why it is the way it is. Stop putting words into my mouth.

Your argument is connected to the government. I am in full agreement racism is wrong and that a company should not be racist. What I disagree on is government enforcement which you are in favor of. You really think it needs to be explained why racism is wrong?:D

Literally everything I've said so far has been my opinion and my opinion only and I have made that clear throughout.

Public service is run by the government so I have no problem with them deciding the standards there. What I have a problem with is telling a shop owner he can't hire based on whatever criteria he chooses.

And I think it's unfair to deny people positions they are qualified for simply based on personal prejudice, I don't think it leads to a productive society and could in fact be quite dangerous.

Either, the government and business are kept strictly separate (i.e. no economy) or compromises have to be made. When the government and business owners have to work together you can't expect the business owner to get their way on everything, the government has to protect its interests, reputation, economy, and a variety of other things.

Again, I understand and theoretically agree with the crux of your argument but I don't believe it to be practical for a multitude of reasons.

The business owner is the one who actually set up the business he took the risk. The employee has free choice when deciding on who they want to apply to work for. If I decide I don't want to work for McDonalds because they have a yellow logo then I can do that. Yet the employer can't decide not to hire me based on me having black hair. I'm not saying that's what an employer should judge people I'm just saying it should be their choice. I believe people should be treated equally but I don't believe in forcing others to do the same. You clearly do.

You say I am forcing my opinions down other people's throats. In case you haven't noticed, I am not the Taoiseach. I'm just some random girl on the internet waffling on about my own opinion. Claiming I'm trying to force my opinion down other people's throats is disingenuous and clearly trying to paint me in a bad light instead of being rational about the discussion.

As for the rest of it I covered it somewhere above. Compromises have to be made when things are so heavily intertwined.

You have decided it's worth the price I disagree. People also put forward that positive discrimination is worth the price and I also disagree based purely on principle. I really don't care if it has positive implications if the principle is wrong(The government deciding what opinions are acceptable.)

I don't even know what to say to that. Are you saying you wouldn't care if everything went to crap so long as you get to say whatever you want in a professional environment?

Can I get some clarification as to what exactly you mean by the bold?

The rest is, again, covered by compromise.

You are forcing your opinions by agreeing that they should be enforceable by law. We clearly look for different things in a government. I don't want one that decides which opinions are acceptable or decides what criteria I should judge people on.

Just because I agree or disagree with something doesn't mean I'm forcing anything on anyone. It just means I have an opinion and I have made it 100% clear that it is only my opinion throughout.

What you just said makes absolutely no sense at all.

The very same could said of you. Just because I was agreeing with their right to discriminate you tried your best to imply I agreed and wanted to encourage discrimination.

How so? I asked you questions to clarify what you meant; you simply made assertions about me for no reason.

Anyway, I see no reason to continue the debate; agree to disagree, I don't enjoy arguing with people who make personal digs with no provocation.

Wompa1 · 25-01-2011 11:45PM

SugarHigh wrote: »

The youtube guy or the guy who sued?

Probably both:D

Both. In fairness I think the Irish generally take Irish jokes in our stride. I suppose the economic boom helped with that. We are the Skoda of nationalities...joked about for years but now seen as dependable work horses

Oops back to the topic. It was sexist and they deserve to be reprimanded. On both instances Andy was inappropriate..it's funny though I think when Richard Keys was caught out bad mouthing the Scottish league would have been more cause for concern considering his job.

As a man I wouldn't start comPlaining about sexism. I don't think most guys are as easily offended as a lot of women. It sucks feeling like you have to be very careful what you say around women at work..the amount of that's what she said opportunities gone past or perfect remarks to make all ruined.

seafood dunleavy · 25-01-2011 11:54PM

Deserved to be sacked.I'm sure when signing his contract it mentioned something along the lines of no sexist,racist remarks etc.

Galvasean · 26-01-2011 12:37AM

neveah wrote: »

A question for the lads here, honestly could you imagine turning to one of your female colleagues and while laughing out loud asking her to 'tuck it in' for you while tugging at the top of your pants in front of other colleagues?? Could you actually imagine yourself doing this just because you were having a laugh?

Have done similar things to both male and female colleagues. Have had such things done unto me by male and female work colleagues. Granted I would only engage in such banter with those workmates I am familiar/friendly enough with to know they would not take offense. IMO it would be inappropriate to do it to someone you barely know because how is one to know how they'd take it.
What's a dick joke among friends? Exactly that, a dick joke.

I'd be very interested to hear the female presenter's (I forget her name, the blonde one who presents SSN) take on the comments. I wonder if she herself was offended by it or are people just getting offended on her behalf? I would imagine since the Sky sports crew have worked together for several years they are probably buddies and share silly banter all the time. I could be completely wrong, but I'd say she's mortified over the idea that her colleague was fired over such a joke.
I do however find Gray's comments against the linesman (that's what they were called when I started watching football so up yours 'refereeing assistants' or whatever FIFA want to call them these days) much worse. He didn't know her so can't argue that it was all in good fun - particularly the ones about her apearance.

Ebbs · 26-01-2011 12:40AM

liah wrote: »

Men get called out on sexist remarks because women care enough to report them. I see no reason why men can't do the same. If you see a problem, fix it.

Wompa1 wrote: »

I don't think most guys are as easily offended as a lot of women.

Oh thank god you opened the sexist generalisation door. I had resisted all thread long, but I'll blame you for offending, I'll just pretend to be clarifing what you are saying.

But ye, Liah, I believe most men dont complain because we simply dont care. The 2847494 million and one face book pages/status updates on how all men are ****/cheaters/liars etc just show that we do get the same amount of sexism, we just on majority couldnt care less.

You see men being offended on a number of those loose women-esqe shows, ones aimed at a female demograph. If I seen on one of the shows that all men are pigs and incapable of running a country/reason for banks collapasing et el.... I would simply not care. I dont know anyone that would. And yes, I did see a number of articles/suggestions and even boards posts that said in a serious manner that if women were running the banks, we'd be fine.

Sticks and stones etc etc.

Ebbs · 26-01-2011 12:42AM

Galvasean wrote: »

I'd be very interested to hear the female presenter's (I forget her name, the blonde one who presents SSN) take on the comments. I wonder if she herself was offended by it or are people just getting offended on her behalf? I would imagine since the Sky sports crew have worked together for several years they are probably buddies and share silly banter all the time. I could be completely wrong, but I'd say she's mortified over the idea that her colleague was fired over such a joke.
.

Georgie Thompson.

I honestly doubt she was offended. For anyone who has seen her on A League of Their Own, she regularly makes and takes gender related abuse.

Otis Driftwood · 26-01-2011 12:53AM

Soccer AM should be fun this weekend.

Pherekydes · 26-01-2011 08:53AM

SugarHigh wrote: »

*J/k btw I actually agreed with her rant.

Really? What did Michaela McAreavey ever do to deserve strangulation on her honeymoon?

Bottle_of_Smoke · 26-01-2011 09:41AM

Ebbs wrote: »

Oh thank god you opened the sexist generalisation door. I had resisted all thread long, but I'll blame you for offending, I'll just pretend to be clarifing what you are saying.

But ye, Liah, I believe most men dont complain because we simply dont care. The 2847494 million and one face book pages/status updates on how all men are ****/cheaters/liars etc just show that we do get the same amount of sexism, we just on majority couldnt care less.

You see men being offended on a number of those loose women-esqe shows, ones aimed at a female demograph. If I seen on one of the shows that all men are pigs and incapable of running a country/reason for banks collapasing et el.... I would simply not care. I dont know anyone that would. And yes, I did see a number of articles/suggestions and even boards posts that said in a serious manner that if women were running the banks, we'd be fine.

Sticks and stones etc etc.

Men don't complain about sexism because it's usually coming from women, and men consider female opinions to be worthless. The sexist pigs.

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Dravokivich · 26-01-2011 11:58AM

stupidusername wrote: »

What pisses me off about all this stuff, is that if it hadn't been leaked to the public nothing would've happened! I mean they either have a problem with him making remarks like this, or they don't, you can't just say oh we better please the general public :rolleyes: have some standards, and stick to them!

it didnt need to be leaked, he was fired as a result of harassing a co-worker in december. in fairness, i dont think sky or any other broadcaster needs to make their hr stuff all that public. and from what i've heard on a recording of an interview last night, they tend to take this stuff rather seriously in general.

i think the public outcry was overblown in general.

Dravokivich · 26-01-2011 12:01PM

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Men don't complain about sexism because it's usually coming from women, and men consider female opinions to be worthless. The sexist pigs.

speaking as a man... i dont get offended by sexism becuse generalised remarks about a range of people says more about who's saying them, then who it's aimed at...

...same can be said for the second half of your comment.

Dudess · 26-01-2011 12:16PM

Ebbs wrote: »

But ye, Liah, I believe most men dont complain because we simply dont care. The 2847494 million and one face book pages/status updates on how all men are ****/cheaters/liars etc just show that we do get the same amount of sexism, we just on majority couldnt care less.

You see men being offended on a number of those loose women-esqe shows, ones aimed at a female demograph. If I seen on one of the shows that all men are pigs and incapable of running a country/reason for banks collapasing et el.... I would simply not care. I dont know anyone that would. And yes, I did see a number of articles/suggestions and even boards posts that said in a serious manner that if women were running the banks, we'd be fine.

Sticks and stones etc etc.

This I agree with somewhat - or maybe many men care but don't do anything about it. Instead, it's easier to moan about "the feminists". That's not to say there aren't men campaigning, e.g. John Waters, and I'd believe it if there was a claim that it's more difficult for men than women to secure funding - an example of that is Amen, the domestic abuse support service for men.

But I once started a thread about the amount of music videos featuring men being ridiculed, and even sexually abused (Britney - Womanizer) and it just got an overwhelmingly "meh, no biggie" response from... men.

parker kent · 26-01-2011 12:50PM

neveah wrote: »

Again I will ask the men of the Gentleman's club, could you knowingly turn to a female colleague and tug at your trousers and ask her to 'tuck it in' for you in front of other work colleagues, think of your own work situation, do you really think that it would be ok?.......

The tuck it in comment was ridiculous from him and I don't think it belongs in the workplace. I have seen her receive similar on-air comments in the past from the footballers she works with. For Andy Gray, the face of Sky's football coverage (a senior role that cannot be understated) to obviously make a colleague uncomfortable should have warranted action at the time. But it obviously would never had landed him in trouble had the recent events not occurred. He was sacked because he was a PR liability, not because they felt strongly about anything that he said with Keys.

I imagine Charlotte Jackson (who is actually a competent broadcaster who understands sport) wants to be judged on her work as much as her looks. Senior colleagues seeing her as a bit of totty to make fun of, must be incredibly frustrating for her. As frustrating as it probably is for anybody on the receiving end of idiotic comments in the workplace.

neveah · 26-01-2011 12:53PM

Galvasean wrote: »

Have done similar things to both male and female colleagues. Have had such things done unto me by male and female work colleagues. Granted I would only engage in such banter with those workmates I am familiar/friendly enough with to know they would not take offense. IMO it would be inappropriate to do it to someone you barely know because how is one to know how they'd take it.
What's a dick joke among friends? Exactly that, a dick joke.

I'd be very interested to hear the female presenter's (I forget her name, the blonde one who presents SSN) take on the comments. I wonder if she herself was offended by it or are people just getting offended on her behalf? I would imagine since the Sky sports crew have worked together for several years they are probably buddies and share silly banter all the time. I could be completely wrong, but I'd say she's mortified over the idea that her colleague was fired over such a joke.
I do however find Gray's comments against the linesman (that's what they were called when I started watching football so up yours 'refereeing assistants' or whatever FIFA want to call them these days) much worse. He didn't know her so can't argue that it was all in good fun - particularly the ones about her apearance.

It was Charlotte Jackson, not Georgie Thompson as a previous poster said.

If newspaper reports today are correct then Gray was very unpopular amongst his work colleagues, this would explain why the videos were leaked in the first place. Another reason to explain his unpopularity would be his ongoing behind the scenes sexist behaviour.

As for Charlotte's reaction in the clip, she doesn't look like she is engaging in 'silly banter' with her buddy to me, she turns away from Gray and she doesn't have a smile on her face. I doubt she is 'mortified' by the incident, she did absolutely nothing wrong at all. The consequences that Gray has faced are as a result of his own actions.

I could imagine several of my guy friends doing similiar things if we were all hanging out and they are pulling the piss, and we've all heard sexist jokes and comments etc. but workplace is completely different. Even where I work we have banter with the lads and they would wind us up and pull the piss out of us but I think most of them know when things might just go over a line and I think what Andy Gray did was just over that line of what you might get away with. In essence he sought to embarrass a female co-worker with sexual innuendo in front of other colleagues. I think the senior management in any company would take this extremely seriously, even if it was just 'banter between friends'.

Look we all can have a laugh a work, I suppose my point is Galvasean, if you do have a laugh with female colleagues and they are cool with it which is grand, just be mindful because senior management might not be so cool with it if they witnessed it. Same goes it if was a female doing it to a male.

parker kent · 26-01-2011 01:00PM

Dravokivich wrote: »

it didnt need to be leaked, he was fired as a result of harassing a co-worker in december. in fairness, i dont think sky or any other broadcaster needs to make their hr stuff all that public. and from what i've heard on a recording of an interview last night, they tend to take this stuff rather seriously in general.

i think the public outcry was overblown in general.

He would never have been sacked had the leaks not happened over the weekend. Not a chance. That is very wrong, but it is the truth. If they had issues with him and were taking it seriously, he would not have continued in such a prominent role in January, up to and including the weekend.

Dudess wrote: »

But I once started a thread about the amount of music videos featuring men being ridiculed, and even sexually abused (Britney - Womanizer) and it just got an overwhelmingly "meh, no biggie" response from... men.

This is pretty true. Sometimes I get annoyed by the occasional ad or chat show, but I don't really care. I think male domestic abuse funding issues is one of the few areas that doesn't get a "meh" reaction from me. Otherwise, I view most examples of men being ridiculed as belonging in idiotic ads/videos that no sensible person takes seriously.

bureau2009 · 26-01-2011 01:04PM

DarkJager wrote: »

I know this is a topic visited many times here, but todays sacking of Andy Gray for comments he made has got my blood boiling again.

His comments (which by the way weren't even broadcast on air) have resulted in him losing his job. However, just watching TV this afternoon, I have seen 2 different "womens" chat shows making derogatory comments about men. This was on air, not some recorded conversation leaked afterwards. I just can't understand this and to me it shows what a complete and utter farce this anti-sexism **** is.

The TV shows were debating about current issues. One of them managed to turn a topic which had nothing to do with genders into a 5 minute male bashing fest, with the cretinous hosts bawking at their own jokes about male stupidity. The other, decided to rip on males about "fashion choices" - something I'm sure none of us really give a **** about because we aren't as vain or clothes obsessed as the opposite sex.

However, it got me thinking how pointless the sacking of Andy Gray actually is. Why was it done? To appease female viewers of Sky Sports? (which I'd be interested to know what majority they make up of its viewership). Already countless forums are being filled with pissed off sky subscription customers saying they will cancel because of this. Meanwhile, these ****ing self obsessed idiots are making a joke out of our gender for entertainment on afternoon tv shows.

When do we say enough is enough? When do we start lodging complaints about dopey bints making snide remarks ON AIR, about our gender and then having a great old guffaw about it? It makes me worry that we, as men, are simply satisified to sit back and watch and allow this to happen, while someone like Andy Gray gets fired from his job over comments he didn't even make while the programme was being broadcast. We can't even have a ****ing advert for Hunky Dorys with female models because its sexist, yet we are treated to the sexist **** that is the RSA "He Drives, She Dies" advert year after year and are supposed to ****ing take it all in our stride?

Are we ever to going to find the balls to call a halt to this sexist nonsense, or does society see us as having to be acceptant of taking this on the chin and going on with life? Are we now supposed to suffer humilation as a gender now because people who aren't even breathing anymore, gave women a hard time before we were even born? I find myself getting more and more infuriated with these double standards we allow to happen. I am sick to my teeth of watching this absolute bull**** carry on, without even a second glance from my gender.

When does it stop lads? When do we start taking back our pride? I don't want to sound completely anti-female but the more I see this happen the more I can't hating their arrogance and societys blind eyes for allowing to them carry on with it.

I agree 100% with you.

Just not sure what we can do about it. Good to know other guys feel the same.

Chucky the tree · 26-01-2011 02:14PM

bureau2009 wrote: »

I agree 100% with you.

Just not sure what we can do about it. Good to know other guys feel the same.

Eh, complain? Thought that was pretty obvious.

strobe · 26-01-2011 03:38PM

Otis Driftwood wrote: »

Soccer AM should be fun this weekend.

"....and here is this weeks soccerette....

55 year old feminist poet Carol Ann Duffy. Could everyone stand and clap respectably please."

fatmammycat · 26-01-2011 07:17PM

Keys has resigned.

Wompa1 · 26-01-2011 07:24PM

fatmammycat wrote: »

Keys has resigned.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VX7noqN6SOI

Ridiculous! Again off camera and this was basically did you tap that?...every week on How I Met Your Mother!!...I don't get it

fatmammycat · 26-01-2011 07:31PM

His interview today on Talk Sport more likely sealed his fate, talk of 'dark forces' at work and other utter nonsense. He made his own position impossible.

SugarHigh · 26-01-2011 11:38PM

I don't think the "Would you smash that" video is any way a big deal.

Maguined · 27-01-2011 11:50AM

Dudess wrote: »

But I once started a thread about the amount of music videos featuring men being ridiculed, and even sexually abused (Britney - Womanizer) and it just got an overwhelmingly "meh, no biggie" response from... men.

It's all about equality of complaints though, I would also believe there is no problem with any of these videos featuring men being ridiculed as I do believe it is no biggie as I hate this notion about the media influencing people therefore it has to be regulated by lowest common denominator of PC standards.

However it does become a problem if I see the equally "no biggie" adds like the Hunky Dory's getting removed because they receive complaints and are deemed offensive to women yet when significant men complain about adds being offensive to men like the RSA this same governing body deem the adds as not offensive.

The advertising standards authority clearly does not treat complaints equally amongst the genders.

Wibbs · 27-01-2011 01:26PM

Ebbs wrote: »

Am I the only one who thinks people just need thicker skin?

People get offended by everything, I had a muslim friend/co-worker that used to be disgusted if people ate ham in his presence.

Women who are offended by what other women wear.

Men who are offended that another man in a different practice gets different treatment in terms of appearences. Just take a look at the suit thread.

Men and women who get offended by what someone does in their spare time despite it being legal.

Some people call it "PC mad", but really its just peoples inability to be at comfort with theirselves. Nothing about anyone, just insecure people.

+1000. It's my strongly held opinion that an insult only has an effect if somewhere deep down you believe it. That's the ego talking. Harden the fcuk up basically, or if you wanna be passive aggressive do it elsewhere.

Double Standards

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