First sign of aggression from doberman pup. What to do?

customrifle · 24-01-2011 2:29am #1

Hi all.
Worrying situation tonight. My fiancee and I were sitting on couch, my pup was falling asleep with his head in her lap, she was giving him cuddle when he growled and showed his teeth. We were both shocked over this, herself was bit upset to be honest as this is totally out of character from him.
Hes just gone 6 months old hes well socialised and exercised(I bring him for long walk into town everyday and he loves meetin people,and at w end he gets few hours running through fields near home place, hes not nervous around people always friendly
My goddaughter(5) and her brother(3) do be around alot and he loves them always happy cuddling them. But after this incident I have zero trust in him. Im well used to the larger breeds we were raised with german shepherd and japanese akita and never had even hint of aggression towards owner like this.
So what do i do? Was it case of him just being sleepy and bein rudely awoken?

Wolfe Tone · 24-01-2011 2:32am

Let the dog know who the boss is.

Or grab him by the collar and chuck him outside. He will cop that he if he is aggressive he has to go outside into the nasty weather while the humans stay in by the fire.

boomerang · 24-01-2011 2:41am

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Let the dog know who the boss is.

Or grab him by the collar and chuck him outside. He will cop that he if he is aggressive he has to go outside into the nasty weather while the humans stay in by the fire.

God, that is terrible advice! Never meet aggression with aggression, it ALWAYS makes things worse.

The pup was falling asleep when he was interfered with, and he sent a warning signal. That's all. Dogs don't have words to say "Hey! Can't you see I'm going to sleep? I don't want hugs or cuddles right now!" Hence the expression, "let sleeping dogs lie."

I know you're worried OP but please don't read too much into this. Dogs have a series of escalating signals with which they can express their displeasure or discomfort with something. This pup was a LONG way from a bite.

My dog sometimes gives a short growl in the night when I turn over in bed, because she's been disturbed in her sleep. It actually sounds like a grumble, which is probably what your pup did to express his dislike. My dog's nine this year and has never bitten anyone.

To put it in perspective: I'm a sociable person, I enjoy meeting people, I love interacting with kids, but I'm as cranky as hell if you wake me up in my sleep!

I do think we expect perfection from our dogs when they have the same failings as we do. If you're worried about this happening again maybe put him into his bed or crate when he's due a nap, rather up on the couch with you guys. There's no problem allowing him up on the furniture so long as he gets off when you ask him to.You can train him to come off the furniture quickly by rewarding him with a treat when he gets off the couch, and then when he has the idea, introduce a word like "off." Then you can invite him back up if you wish.

Wolfe Tone · 24-01-2011 2:43am

It is unacceptable to have a dog growl at you simply unacceptable.

Whispered · 24-01-2011 2:52am

I agree it's never a good idea to meet agression with agression, but likewise, never acceptable for your dog to growl at you (except sleep growls, they're adorable).

I'd suggest definately upping your obedience training, try using the "nilf" method seamus described in another thread. Nothing in life for free. Your dog has to do a simple command before getting anything. Even if it's a sit for food, or a wait before getting up on the sofa. We had issues with harley and the couch, not agression, but just jumping up all the time, and not having any respect for who was on it. His sofa and if you're on it, sure he's happy to sit on you. :rolleyes: So now he has to "ask" before getting up.

Please don't think less of your dog, it's a natural thing for a dog to growl, and while not acceptable, it's not a huge deal for now.

If it happens again, stand up, gently take the dogs collar and remove him from the couch. No need to be agressive, just do it without emotion. you growled, off the couch.

I think boomerang sounds like a lovely owner and very understanding!! With our boy he gets poked and prodded in his sleep, moved, woken up, laid on, cuddled into, I tend to squash my feet under him as a warmer, or put them up on him as a footrest. I would neve expect him to growl, nor would I accept it. But I can see how it would be annoying to have someone disturb you like that.

boomerang · 24-01-2011 3:06am

I understand why you feel that way Wolfe Tone, but I think you're crediting the pup with too much intelligence if you think chucking him out and leaving him out there to think about what he's done will cure the problem. The dog isn't a child. The only way punishment works is if it is meted out right at the moment the dog does the unwanted behaviour- and not a second later. That is the only way a dog can connect the punishment with his actions. Most people don't have the exquisite sense of timing that's needed, so all the dog learns from being chucked out is that sometimes his owner is unpredictable and scary. He doesn't connect it with having growled. That's just gonna erode the dog's trust and make him more defensive - and more growly.

Far better to teach the dog the right thing to do by using access to the couch as a reward, as Whispered described, or making sure the dog will always politely get off the couch, as I described. Whispered is right - if you are going to correct the dog, you cannot be emotional about it. There's no place for anger in dog training.

By the way - what commonly happens with dogs that are not permitted to growl? Having lost the means of expressing that they are not comfortable with what's happening, they can only escalate the warning to a bite instead. That's when you hear of stories about dogs that bite "out of the blue."

customrifle · 24-01-2011 3:09am

Thanks for replies guys. I removed him from couch straight away and into back garden when it happened. Hes now sleeping in his bed in the back kitchen(he knows he did wrong as im not giving him attention) instead of his usual place at the foot of the bed. As regard training he always has to sit before gettin his food. I think personally hes too spoiled(tough thing to admit) and hes getting to stage when hes trying to see if he can be boss, but it makes sense about him being disturbed and letting out growl.

Whispered · 24-01-2011 3:58am

OP, at this stage the dog has no idea why he's not getting attention, so I would say just let it go for now. He's still your dog who you love to have on your bed

All you can do now is work on it not happening again. And reacting when it does happen (as you did). Not allowing him in with you could even be counterproductive. A frustrated dog doesn't respond well to training. And punishment after the deed doesn't work. Also important - a frustrated owner, or an owner still annoyed over a past incident does not give training properly. (I know I don't when I'm annoyed and frustrated!)

I would even say "punishment" doesn't work at all, correction does.

Boomerang, that's a good point about the dogs biting "out of the blue". It's difficult to read all situations. I would always correct growling, but tailor it to the situation; for example, he was recently in the vets having a nasty and somewhat painful procedure, he growled under his breath, his correction was a shush and a rub.

CreedonsDogDayc · 24-01-2011 9:24am

Whispered wrote: »

I agree it's never a good idea to meet agression with agression, but likewise, never acceptable for your dog to growl at you (except sleep growls, they're adorable).

I'd suggest definately upping your obedience training, try using the "nilf" method seamus described in another thread. Nothing in life for free. Your dog has to do a simple command before getting anything. Even if it's a sit for food, or a wait before getting up on the sofa. We had issues with harley and the couch, not agression, but just jumping up all the time, and not having any respect for who was on it. His sofa and if you're on it, sure he's happy to sit on you. :rolleyes: So now he has to "ask" before getting up.

Please don't think less of your dog, it's a natural thing for a dog to growl, and while not acceptable, it's not a huge deal for now.

If it happens again, stand up, gently take the dogs collar and remove him from the couch. No need to be agressive, just do it without emotion. you growled, off the couch.

I think boomerang sounds like a lovely owner and very understanding!! With our boy he gets poked and prodded in his sleep, moved, woken up, laid on, cuddled into, I tend to squash my feet under him as a warmer, or put them up on him as a footrest. I would neve expect him to growl, nor would I accept it. But I can see how it would be annoying to have someone disturb you like that.

Great advice, follow this!

fatmammycat · 24-01-2011 9:35am

I owned a dobermann for years, one who was neglected for the first 6 months of his life and was a bag of problems- including fear aggression- when I got him. I disagree with Wolfetone and find meeting aggression with aggression only makes things worse with these sensitive dogs.
Your dog gave you a warning, if he was a vicious dog he would have just bitten you, end of story. And believe me many a person disturbing a tired dog, or an eating dog, or a dog fighting has gotten bitten.
I think it was EGAR who said on here the other day that a dog is a dog is a dog, and I couldn't agree more. If you treat a dog like a person, ascribe himan emotions to it, -guilt, anger, feeling let down' you're asking too much of your animal.
Your dog does not 'know ' what he did wrong, dogs don't think that way. He's not mulling over the incident. The incident has passed.
Personally I have always been against dogs on furniture, it's tough for most dogs to be allowed access to something one day and then required to get down at the owner's whim the next. Dobermanns are highly intelligent and will challenge you a little as they hit the teenage years, but being calm and consistent helps a lot with the transition from pup to adult dog. Giving them their own beds, their own bowls, their own down time help give young dogs a sense of stability I think.

Also, I'd never leave small children around a large dog no matter how trustworth he or she was, kids poke, pull, stand on and in general have no idea how to read body language in dogs. It could well be a recipe for diaster.

Don't be too disheartened, it was a warning, a sign that you need to address an issue nothing more than that.

TooManyDogs · 24-01-2011 10:40am

CreedonsDogDayc wrote: »

Great advice, follow this!

+1 for whispered's advise, exactly what I was going to write

planetX · 24-01-2011 10:54am

I'd also make sure you get your fiancee involved in training - as well as you being pack leader, you want to make sure that she is also higher in the pack order than the dog. There are often problems when the dog is only trained by one person in the house, and tries to assert dominance over the others in the house.

james098 · 24-01-2011 11:03am

TooManyDogs wrote: »

+1 for whispered's advise, exactly what I was going to write

+2 great advice whispered;)

DeadlyByDesign · 24-01-2011 12:05pm

I am not sure if I would be for a "dog should not growl". A dog has no other way of telling you he is miffed off and the situation should be read into the context of the moment. Basically in the moment you mentioned your dog was saying "I am tired bugger off and leave me be". If he wanted to hurt you he would. You have to put yourself in the dogs situation, why he is reacting the way he is and see if it should be read into a lot or a little.

My guy does the same now and then. He is the most loveable creature you ever laid eyes on. Now grand it, I know when to put the foot down when he gets "over barky/excited". Again it is all in context.

seamus · 24-01-2011 12:26pm

"Let sleeping dogs lie" as a phrase has a genuine source.

I've never encountered a dog that doesn't jump when it's awoken suddenly. If the dog is in REM sleep when it's woken up, it can be very confused and excited, which could result in growling or even a bite.

Dogs dream. I've heard anecdotally of people being attacked by their dog which woke suddenly from a dream and didn't know where it was, or perhaps didn't realise the dream was over - we've all been there and spent ten seconds trying to figure out what the hell just happened after a particularly vivid dream.

It depends on what this "cuddle" was. Did your fiancee pick the dog up and cuddle it, or otherwise grab the dog to give him a cuddle like a baby? In that case, the dog might have simply been saying, "Feck off, I'm tired and not feeling great", or might simply have gotten a fright by being asleep one minute and "captured" the next.

I would personally stop the dog from getting up on the couch. If necessary set up a second bed at your feet for the dog to sleep in when you're sitting down in the evenings. Yes, it's lovely and relaxing to have a dog snoozing on your lap and to cuddle, but it's not a cuddly toy or a baby. It's a dog. And it prefers to be treated like a dog

I don't think there's any need for the couch debate. It's fine to have the dog on the couch once the dog knows his/her place. But it can be tougher to ensure the dog knows their place when you're allowing them on the couch (or in your bed).

Whispered's advice is spot on. Consider this growl to have been an early warning. If the dog wanted to have hurt you, there would have been serious damage, you wouldn't have gotten much of a warning. There's no reason to distrust the dog any more. Remember that trust is breached because an expectation was changed. This doesn't mean that the dog was wrong, it means that your expectations of the dog were wrong.
It will vocalise to tell you when it's happy or unhappy, on top of other body languages. Listen to it

customrifle · 24-01-2011 12:41pm

Thanks guys.
He started whining at half 3 this morn so i let him up to our room hes in back garden playing with fiancées shih tzu now. I just want to make sure situation is not a reoccurring one. My fiancée is very much involved with his training as i work nights during week so im with him in the morning and during day and she is with pups at night. Also i would never leave kids alone with any dog not only in relation to fear dog may bite but in case child gets knocked over by playful excited dog.
I totally agree with the breed being highly intelligent. For last couple months hes being opening door from living room to kitchen, then door from kitchen to hall then other door from hall to living room that gives them circle to chase each other round in:D shih tzu gets so mad when she cant catch him:p

LucyBliss · 24-01-2011 5:34pm

Six months is about the right time for that kind of thing to happen in a dog's development, especially with the smarter breeds. They begin to have no problems with showing just how much they dislike a situation. It can be off-putting when a once adorably cute bundle starts to grow up and be a bit stroppy but so long as you stay consistent with the training and commands and keep yourself in the frame of mind where a fear isn't lurking in the back of your mind, it won't escalate.

"Let sleeping dogs lie" as a phrase has a genuine source

Not to be facetious, but if you woke me suddenly from my sleep, there would be some growling and possibly swearing.

cjf · 24-01-2011 6:09pm

ahh the 6 month button has been flicked!! They start to question everything and flex their muscles!! Consistency is key with these guys and the training should be at a steady and consistent pace - while intelligent in some areas (opening doors etc!) they are highly sensitive and need firm but fair handling! They do catch on to most things quite quickly and by putting him off the couch immediately he will know that that behaviour will not be accepted. My chap went through a phase of standing right in front of you , looking at you and woo woo woooooing into your face!! he wanted to play and while I knew that, a stranger meeting him for the first time would most likely freak out at him doing that so when he did it I would just get up and leave the room he soon got the message! They love 'their people' and want to be near/on you 24/7 so use this as a training tool. If you disagree just deny them access to you by ignoring them and they soon learn what they are allowed to do and what they are not allowed to do! My fella is 2 now and at home he can still be a terror! Opening the wash basket and stealing socks! Butting the phone or laptop out of my hands if I am on it too long and still trying to sit on my lap! But he is a super dog where it counts, meeting other people, kids, other dogs etc so I put up with the odd terrorised sock and hope he grows out of that one! At 2 my lad is still very much a pup and I would say I have another year of 2 of puppydom before he grows up! Good luck with your lad!! Super dogs and like you said I wouldnt be without my guy now!

lrushe · 24-01-2011 6:21pm

+1 on the NILF training method, google it, read it and live by it would be my advice.
I'd first look at getting him into a good obedience class as you would have to have a level of obedience to go hand in hand with the NILF training.
Just remember hugging, cuddling etc. is a human expression and many dogs don't actually enjoy it, some of the more happy-go-lucky one's will tolerate it but other mightn't and your guy has obviously sent you a clear message so I would listen to him.

peasant · 24-01-2011 8:12pm

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

It is unacceptable to have a dog growl at you simply unacceptable.

That statement is far too sweeping that it could be true.

Like others have said, growling is part of doggy communication. You have to understand why and how the dog is growling in order to deem it acceptable or not. Also, un-learning your dog to growl could escalate things in certain situations. A surpressed warning growl will lead to a quicker bite.

Dogs growl for all sorts of reasons ...

- like mentioned above ...the "I'm sleepy, leave me alone" growl. Nothing wrong with that ..just leave the dog be

- the "I'm in pain, don't touch me there" growl ...that one obviously needs to be investigated

- the "I'm trying a mini-revolution, see if I can scare you and win" growl ...dog is doing something it's not supposed to ...you tell it no and it growls at you. That one is absolutely not tolerable and you better make damn sure that you "growl" back a lot louder and clearer right there and then...i.e. something like that must have immediate consequences.

- the proper aggressive growl, the last warning before things get bloody. Well ...I can't really give you any advice on that one ...I've never been in that situation

Whispered · 24-01-2011 10:46pm

peasant wrote: »

Like others have said, growling is part of doggy communication. You have to understand why and how the dog is growling in order to deem it acceptable or not. Also, un-learning your dog to growl could escalate things in certain situations. A surpressed warning growl will lead to a quicker bite.

Dogs growl for all sorts of reasons ...

- like mentioned above ...the "I'm sleepy, leave me alone" growl. Nothing wrong with that ..just leave the dog be

- the "I'm in pain, don't touch me there" growl ...that one obviously needs to be investigated

- the "I'm trying a mini-revolution, see if I can scare you and win" growl ...dog is doing something it's not supposed to ...you tell it no and it growls at you. That one is absolutely not tolerable and you better make damn sure that you "growl" back a lot louder and clearer right there and then...i.e. something like that must have immediate consequences.

- the proper aggressive growl, the last warning before things get bloody. Well ...I can't really give you any advice on that one ...I've never been in that situation

I do agree with all of that except for the "I'm sleeply" one. I suppose you can leave it be if the dog is in his own bed, although I would still say not acceptable tbh, but not on the couch.

For us; the couch is a treat, a place for the dog to be with his people. If he is really tired he will go to this bed or the other couch so as not to be disturbed (ususally with a big sigh!). You have to be able to wake the dog to move him off the couch in my opinion.

Dog in pain, dog scared, dog confused, all understandable, although still should be acknowledged and corrected in some cases, but your dog growling because you disturbed his sleep or you cuddled into him? Unless he was a rescue with a sketchy past or was uncomfortable with being so close to people anyway, no way would I accept it.

peasant · 24-01-2011 11:09pm

Whispered wrote: »

...but your dog growling because you disturbed his sleep or you cuddled into him? ... no way would I accept it.

Bit of give and take makes life easier and fairer ..I tell my dogs to eff off /shut up / stop doing this umpteen times a day ...every now and then they're due a grumble of their own

Wolfe Tone · 24-01-2011 11:17pm

I dont care why it growls, Im not having it.

That said my dog has never growled(except in her sleep) in about 7 years. She is 8. It was never a problem really.

peasant · 24-01-2011 11:25pm

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

That said my dog has never growled(except in her sleep) in about 7 years. She is 8. It was never a problem really.

Out of three, we have two non-growlers, real easy to handle, placid dogs really ...but Madame Terrier makes up for it, very vocal and challenging Lady she is. Needs to be reminded of her station fairly regularly, but every now and then even she is right.

Whispered · 25-01-2011 1:01am

Oh he grumbles alright - moans, sighs, pretends not to hear you (learned that one from husband I think), but not growls. In saying that it has never been an issue. Like I said above, he growled in the vets once. Now that I think of it, he growled at a friend who let himself and g/f in late at night, and once he growled from his crate when the kitchen filled up very quickly with a bunch of men. He was obviously uncomfortable. Both of these were addressed, he was shown it wasn't necessary, and that was that. He wasn't punished of course, but it wasn't ignored either.

Grumbles are sometimes allowable in some situations, but they should always be acknowledged imo. As much for the dogs sake (if feeling scared etc) as yours. But I think we will have to agree to disagree with the couch growls, I wouldn't accept it, nor would I allow him growl if I wanted him to go out the back to clean himself, if I wanted to take his food bowl, if I wanted to clean him or any other common doggy dislikes.

What does your growly lady growl at? Which ones do you ignore and which ones do you correct? And how do you correct? I suppose I'm lucky in that Harley is not a vocal boy at all.

Redderneck · 25-01-2011 11:39am

There is lots of worthwhile advice on this thread; no meeting aggression with aggression; a sanction has to be instant for the animal to recognise it as such etc - but I think only one or two posters have mentioned the piece of training which is the most screamingly obvious to me - and it doesn't involve training the dog it involves training the owner.

Keep the animal off the furniture. All furniture and it should go without saying, especially beds.

If you want to get close & personal, hunker down on the floor, sit, lie down, whatever.

Dogs in bedrooms - as my Dad would say; if I had my way, there'd be a gun involved and it wouldn't be for the poor dog. They're not the ones who should know better.

lrushe · 25-01-2011 12:49pm

Redderneck wrote: »

Keep the animal off the furniture. All furniture and it should go without saying, especially beds.

If you want to get close & personal, hunker down on the floor, sit, lie down, whatever.

Dogs in bedrooms - as my Dad would say; if I had my way, there'd be a gun involved and it wouldn't be for the poor dog. They're not the ones who should know better.

While my animals are not allowed on the furniture they are in my bedroom almost ever night, never had an issue with agression.
These things are possible so long as the dog understands that he must be invited and not just take it upon themselves to do as they please.

peasant · 25-01-2011 7:50pm

Whispered wrote: »

Oh he grumbles alright - moans, sighs, pretends not to hear you (learned that one from husband I think), but not growls. ....

What does your growly lady growl at? Which ones do you ignore and which ones do you correct? And how do you correct? I suppose I'm lucky in that Harley is not a vocal boy at all.

Ahhh, see ..there we are in definition territory ...what's a growl and what's a grumble? What you describe as a "grumble" in your examples above, I have (perhaps wrongly?) filed under "growl" ...and now we're a bit closer to the truth in that some growling (as per my definition of it) is quite alright.

Anyhow ...

Madame Terrier is very vocal ...she even "talks" to herself

.
She rumbles and grumbles at herself when she shifts position while lying down

, she rumbles and grumbles at outside noises (mostly imagined ones) and she always needs to be in the front row for any action going.

She gets corrected pretty often ...most of it is just to tell her to shut up, but there are one or two severe issues as well. She growls at any cat that is visible while she is at her food (the cats have zero interest in her food) and she knows by now that she's not supposed to do that (but still does it anyway) and she always wants to "win" (whatever it is) before the other dogs.
She has received severe admonishions (no blood spilled, but close) from the other dogs but she is not to be deterred for long ...the only thing that stops her for a while is when we step in and separate her and put her on "the naughty step" for a while.

Coming to think of it ...she's pretty hard work

(but such a charmer when she's not annoying)

peasant · 25-01-2011 7:53pm

Redderneck wrote: »

If you want to get close & personal, hunker down on the floor, sit, lie down, whatever.

I'm over 40 and my joints ache ...the bed is so much more comfortable for cuddles

The dogs only come when invited and usually disappear far too soon all by themselves.

Whispered · 25-01-2011 8:21pm

peasant wrote: »

Ahhh, see ..there we are in definition territory ...what's a growl and what's a grumble? What you describe as a "grumble" in your examples above, I have (perhaps wrongly?) filed under "growl" ...and now we're a bit closer to the truth in that some growling (as per my definition of it) is quite alright.

Yes I suppose so. I would think that for me it depends on the circumstances of the noise as to whether to treat it as a growl. As well as the dogs body language and the "intention" he's showing me. A relaxed dog moaning when you lean on him, is not growling, but barring his teeth while doing so would be, by my defination. Or the example of Harley growling from his crate, it was a quiet little growl, no teeth barred, but he had his head dropped, looking up from under his eyes, was obviously uncomfortable and I felt it needed to be corrected (my way of correcting it was to remove him from the room, and bring people to him one by one, I do not mean he was told to shut up and punished, so perhaps a defination problem with the word "correction" too?)

peasant · 25-01-2011 8:39pm

Whispered wrote: »

... I felt it needed to be corrected (my way of correcting it was to remove him from the room, and bring people to him one by one, I do not mean he was told to shut up and punished, so perhaps a defination problem with the word "correction" too?)

indeed ...I wouldn't say you "corrected" him at all. You understood that he was uncomfortable / ill at ease and removed him from the situation...I would call that "communication" and "helping" ...the way it's supposed to be ...showing leadership and all that

First sign of aggression from doberman pup. What to do?

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