Its official : public sector pay per hour is 49% higher than private sector

Spudmonkey · 24-01-2011 09:46PM

doc_17 wrote: »

Sure it pays a decent wage. But you mist also consider that the person has an honour degree and a postgrad qualification. Does the average person have that? I get why people don't like teachers but we're not in the hole we're in because of teachers.

"It's a well paid job".

That does remind me of a certain FF politician.

Treehouse72 · 24-01-2011 11:06PM

doc_17 wrote: »

Sure it pays a decent wage.

€43k pa for a 24 year old is "decent"? You are living on bloody Mars mate if that's what you think.

doc_17 wrote: »

But you mist also consider that the person has an honour degree and a postgrad qualification. Does the average person have that?

Do you know what a tautology is? It is entirely tautological to say that a qualification that someone gets - the postgrad qualification you refer to - that allows them become a teacher is a reason to pay them more. It's like paying a footballer more for having feet or an astronaut more for having a head for heights. It is an absurd argument.

doc_17 wrote: »

I get why people don't like teachers but we're not in the hole we're in because of teachers.

And then you personalise it: I must not "like" teachers. A disgraceful way to avoid a debate. It's got nothing to do with liking or disliking teachers. It's about hating our bloated, uncompetitive economy, an economy that cannot recover if 24 year olds get paid €43k by the state.

I'm going to stop there because I feel myself losing my temper.

avoidspammers · 24-01-2011 11:45PM

Treehouse72 wrote: »

€43k pa for a 24 year old is "decent"? You are living on bloody Mars mate if that's what you think.

That is an ageist remark. You should withdraw it. Low intelligence or a lack of understanding is no excuse for that type of post.

It's like paying an astronaut more for having a head for heights. It is an absurd argument.

An astronaut does indeed get paid more for having a good head for heights, as well as for having undergone intense training prior to taking up their post. What is your point exactly here? You are actually agreeing with the last poster and you do not seem to realise it.

And then you personalise it: I must not "like" teachers. A disgraceful way to avoid a debate.

Please see below for how you finished your post.

I'm going to stop there because I feel myself losing my temper.

This type of remark serves merely to bloat this thread with meaningless rants. One should post on this forum to add value to the individual threads. You are not doing this. Think before you post in the future and I will not have to spend time correcting your methodology in the future.

A.S.

noodler · 24-01-2011 11:48PM

Treehouse72 wrote: »

€43k pa for a 24 year old is "decent"? You are living on bloody Mars mate if that's what you think.

Hmm, you win - I like your style.

avoidspammers wrote: »

A.S.

You lose, typically.

avoidspammers · 24-01-2011 11:50PM

noodler wrote: »

Hmm, you win - I like your style.

Win?? Oh my.

MagicSean · 25-01-2011 12:33AM

Surely the extra money can be considered as payment for the years spent in college earning the degree. Is that not why graduates are paid more?

noodler · 25-01-2011 12:49AM

k_mac wrote: »

Surely the extra money can be considered as payment for the years spent in college earning the degree. Is that not why graduates are paid more?

Scale. Proportion. etc etc

Treehouse72 · 25-01-2011 12:53AM

avoidspammers wrote: »

That is an ageist remark. You should withdraw it. Low intelligence or a lack of understanding is no excuse for that type of post.

An astronaut does indeed get paid more for having a good head for heights, as well as for having undergone intense training prior to taking up their post. What is your point exactly here? You are actually agreeing with the last poster and you do not seem to realise it.

Please see below for how you finished your post.

This type of remark serves merely to bloat this thread with meaningless rants. One should post on this forum to add value to the individual threads. You are not doing this. Think before you post in the future and I will not have to spend time correcting your methodology in the future.

A.S.

It is beneath me to respond to a single word of this.

martian1980 · 25-01-2011 01:17AM

avoidspammers wrote: »

That is an ageist remark. You should withdraw it. Low intelligence or a lack of understanding is no excuse for that type of post.

An astronaut does indeed get paid more for having a good head for heights, as well as for having undergone intense training prior to taking up their post. What is your point exactly here? You are actually agreeing with the last poster and you do not seem to realise it.

Please see below for how you finished your post.

This type of remark serves merely to bloat this thread with meaningless rants. One should post on this forum to add value to the individual threads. You are not doing this. Think before you post in the future and I will not have to spend time correcting your methodology in the future.

A.S.

Fair play there, completely destroyed Treehouse's post.

My brother earned over 60k a year at the same age. I won't bother telling you what he does for a living, since it is irrelevant to the discussion - he was only in his early twenties, and so clearly didn't deserve it.

UnLuckyAgain · 25-01-2011 02:26AM

Treehouse72 wrote: »

a 24 year old teacher on €40,000 pa + €3k Summer nixers making €43,000 pa in total. Just out of college, one assumes.

Anyone else know any 24 year olds earning that? It's probably 20% above a median national wage, and almost certainly higher than a median Dublin wage. At 24.

Defend that if you like. Anyone without prejudice should see it as an absurdity.

People don't seem to realise that for someone like a 24 year old just out of college, to use your example, the chances of gaining a permanent incremental position in a secondary school are almost 0, which your "€43,000 p.a" example refers to.

More than likely, this hypothetical person would be working only 10 hours a week, on a pro-rata pay system giving an hourly rate, which usually doesn't include pay for the 3 months holidays in secondary school (plus other holidays e.g midterms etc)

The reality of the pay situation for majority of teachers is that pay is closer to average, possibly less, than most people realise.

So your reference to a teacher's salary is not an "absurdity", its a rarity.

Treehouse72 · 25-01-2011 04:02AM

martian1980 wrote: »

Fair play there, completely destroyed Treehouse's post.

My brother earned over 60k a year at the same age. I won't bother telling you what he does for a living, since it is irrelevant to the discussion - he was only in his early twenties, and so clearly didn't deserve it.

UnLuckyAgain wrote: »

People don't seem to realise that for someone like a 24 year old just out of college, to use your example, the chances of gaining a permanent incremental position in a secondary school are almost 0, which your "€43,000 p.a" example refers to.

More than likely, this hypothetical person would be working only 10 hours a week, on a pro-rata pay system giving an hourly rate, which usually doesn't include pay for the 3 months holidays in secondary school (plus other holidays e.g midterms etc)

The reality of the pay situation for majority of teachers is that pay is closer to average, possibly less, than most people realise.

So your reference to a teacher's salary is not an "absurdity", its a rarity.

I am utterly speechless. I simply wouldn't know where to start, so again, I won't bother.

Other than to say, this whole argument is moot anyway. Think about it this way - the taxes of German policemen, French teachers and Danish civil servants are currently being channelled into Ireland, where we are using them to pay higher salaries to our policemen, teachers and civil servants than they do in Germany, France and Denmark. German cops DIRECTLY transferring money from their own pockets into those of their Irish colleagues! This isn't rhetorical sophistry or mangled logic - this is literally what is happening as we speak.

That's why this debate doesn't matter. And why public opinion doesn't matter. It's a simple matter of economic gravity, and it is working against the Irish PS.

paraletic · 25-01-2011 08:17AM

k_mac wrote: »

Surely the extra money can be considered as payment for the years spent in college earning the degree. Is that not why graduates are paid more?

actually, i think graduates are paid more because they are more highly qualified than those without third level qualifications.

just like electricians and plumbers (and doctors) who have training and qualifications are more highly paid than those without!!!!

fliball123 · 25-01-2011 10:43AM

Treehouse72 wrote: »

I am utterly speechless. I simply wouldn't know where to start, so again, I won't bother.

Other than to say, this whole argument is moot anyway. Think about it this way - the taxes of German policemen, French teachers and Danish civil servants are currently being channelled into Ireland, where we are using them to pay higher salaries to our policemen, teachers and civil servants than they do in Germany, France and Denmark. German cops DIRECTLY transferring money from their own pockets into those of their Irish colleagues! This isn't rhetorical sophistry or mangled logic - this is literally what is happening as we speak.

That's why this debate doesn't matter. And why public opinion doesn't matter. It's a simple matter of economic gravity, and it is working against the Irish PS.

Dont worry treehouse...come Sept when the IMF are looking at the pros and cons of the CPA they will tear it assunder...Even Labours Moan Burton was saying that they would have to compromise with FG about the CPA on Vinny Browne last night..Its not looking good for public servants...and then you had the good auld socialist saying how the trade unions would gather...and moan burton was saying how dare he say that they will start national strikes...If labour are coming around to this way of thinking I would be bricking it if I was in the p.s

ardmacha · 25-01-2011 01:29PM

the taxes of German policemen, French teachers and Danish civil servants are currently being channelled into Ireland,

The taxes of German policemen, French teachers and Danish civil servants are being lent at a high interest rate to Ireland.

If salaries were too high then there would be evidence of the best and brightest of the younger generation queuing up to become teachers. This evidence is not obvious to me.

martian1980 · 25-01-2011 03:13PM

ardmacha wrote: »

If salaries were too high then there would be evidence of the best and brightest of the younger generation queuing up to become teachers. This evidence is not obvious to me.

That must be because a sense of patriotic duty would not allow them to take the job at such a high rate of pay. They'd all be queueing up if the pay was cut by at least 25%

:rolleyes:

Head The Wall · 25-01-2011 05:12PM

There's plenty of them queuing on the dole at the moment. I also think its a good thing that our best and brightest don't take the easy money option and choose a career where they can get the best out of themselves

MagicSean · 25-01-2011 06:12PM

When you calculate the salaries for public sector workers do you include the deductions that private sector workers don't pay before you make comparisons?

fliball123 · 25-01-2011 06:16PM

k_mac wrote: »

When you calculate the salaries for public sector workers do you include the deductions that private sector workers don't pay before you make comparisons?

What deductions are these?

Smiegal · 25-01-2011 06:24PM

Oh dear God, is this rubbish still going on? I can understand newcomers to these kind of threads having an appetite for the "debates" that go on here, but how can the regulars (you know who you are), keep going over and over and over the same points day in day out???

Seriously like? Every one of these anti-public sector threads eventually turn out to be the exact same!

If you all (regular anti-PS posters only) care so much about it then stop wasting your time (and God knows you seem to have enough of it to be wasting) thinking about what can you post next and instead join some political party and try and make an actual real differance!!! Imagine....

doc_17 · 25-01-2011 06:52PM

Treehouse72 wrote: »

€43k pa for a 24 year old is "decent"? You are living on bloody Mars mate if that's what you think..

There isn't a single 24 year old teacher anywhere in this country earning 43k per annum. Nowhere. The 43k was the supposed or median someone else mentioned. you are confusong your posters I think.

.[/QUOTE]

Do you know what a tautology is? It is entirely tautological to say that a qualification that someone gets - the postgrad qualification you refer to - that allows them become a teacher is a reason to pay them more. It's like paying a footballer more for having feet or an astronaut more for having a head for heights. It is an absurd argument.
.[/QUOTE]

So when the origional person referred to median pay and then and compared it with teachers ( who have hons degress and postgrads) they should be comparing like with like.

[/QUOTE] then you personalise it: I must not "like" teachers. A disgraceful way to avoid a debate. It's got nothing to do with liking or disliking teachers. It's about hating our bloated, uncompetitive economy, an economy that cannot recover if 24 year olds get paid €43k by the state.
.[/QUOTE]

nowhere did i say YOU did not like teachers....It's fairly well accepted that people are jealous of the holidays

I'm going to stop there because I feel myself losing my temper.[/QUOTE]

gigino · 25-01-2011 10:07PM

Treehouse72 wrote: »

Think about it this way - the taxes of German policemen, French teachers and Danish civil servants are currently being channelled into Ireland, where we are using them to pay higher salaries to our policemen, teachers and civil servants than they do in Germany, France and Denmark. German cops DIRECTLY transferring money from their own pockets into those of their Irish colleagues! This isn't rhetorical sophistry or mangled logic - this is literally what is happening as we speak.

Our policemen, teachers and civil servants deserve to be paid more than anyone else as we got shafted by the private sector. It was the private sector who charged us so much for our houses and holiday homes and cars.

Head The Wall · 25-01-2011 11:03PM

They charged what fools were willing to pay!! Look up market forces

gigino · 26-01-2011 01:00AM

Many piublic servants have big mortgages and loans to service so cannot have another pay cut. Its very hard to pay two mortgages on 65k a year.

kaiser sauze · 26-01-2011 01:33AM

gigino wrote: »

Many piublic servants have big mortgages and loans to service so cannot have another pay cut. Its very hard to pay two mortgages on 65k a year.

Why would someone on only €65K a year have two mortgages?

doc_17 · 26-01-2011 10:22AM

kaiser sauze wrote: »

Why would someone on only €65K a year have two mortgages?

I know the origionalk comment may have been in jest but the reality is every masn woman and child in Irreland now has at at least one mortgage - the bailout of the banks will be theirs to pay for the rest of their lives..

gigino · 26-01-2011 10:54AM

kaiser sauze wrote: »

Why would someone on only €65K a year have two mortgages?

Lots of public servants have 2 or 3 mortgages, because during the celtic tiger years the greedy private sector banks and estate agents were encouraging us to buy holiday homes and investment properties to suppliment our pensions. Think of the Garda with the flat in Rathmines, the teacher with the holiday home etc. If you had one property which increased in value a lot, you could use it as the deposit on the 2nd property and so on. The private sector destroyed the economy. The public sector have already had cuts and should not have to pay for it. The loans / amount of money owed to the private sector has not been cut.

RichardAnd · 26-01-2011 11:05AM

gigino wrote: »

Lots of public servants have 2 or 3 mortgages, because during the celtic tiger years the greedy private sector banks and estate agents were encouraging us to buy holiday homes and investment properties to suppliment our pensions. Think of the Garda with the flat in Rathmines, the teacher with the holiday home etc. If you had one property which increased in value a lot, you could use it as the deposit on the 2nd property and so on. The private sector destroyed the economy. The public sector have already had cuts and should not have to pay for it. The loans / amount of money owed to the private sector has not been cut.

We didn't cause it, we shouldn't have to pay. In some cases, this is true. There are many hard working people in ireland (public and private) who did not mire themselves in debt, who did not p!ss away their money and who had nothing to do with the crash.

Sadly, I am reminded of a very good piece of advice a manager once told me in a job I once had. I was complaining to him about an error in the environment I was developing software in that made it extremely difficult for me to do what was needed. He replied, "it's not your fault it's there, but it's still your problem". Likewise, I am one of those who was too young to get myself into debt and too well raised to believe I should be given everything on a platter however, I am still paying for others mistakes. Hence, this mess isn't my fault, but it is still my problem.

You can't just cut yourself off from the outside world, no matter how much you (and I often feel like this), might want to.

The_Honeybadger · 26-01-2011 12:37PM

RichardAnd wrote: »

We didn't cause it, we shouldn't have to pay. In some cases, this is true. There are many hard working people in ireland (public and private) who did not mire themselves in debt, who did not p!ss away their money and who had nothing to do with the crash.

Sadly, I am reminded of a very good piece of advice a manager once told me in a job I once had. I was complaining to him about an error in the environment I was developing software in that made it extremely difficult for me to do what was needed. He replied, "it's not your fault it's there, but it's still your problem". Likewise, I am one of those who was too young to get myself into debt and too well raised to believe I should be given everything on a platter however, I am still paying for others mistakes. Hence, this mess isn't my fault, but it is still my problem.

You can't just cut yourself off from the outside world, no matter how much you (and I often feel like this), might want to.

What a sensible post, as for the whole private v public thing, I used to post here regularly, not so much anymore but still check the forum every other day. As a poster above said the debate has been going around in circles for over two years now, with no new points being raised or evidence produced so I got sick of participating. There is no right or wrong answer IMO, some elements of the PS are massively overpaid and underworked, some are not, ditto the private sector. The new FG / Labour coalition has a difficult task on it's hands as it is likely that more paycuts will have to be brought in, at least they can show a clean pair of hands and blame FF, for a while. I do think some of the anti - PS posters here are simply bitter and jealous as their own work situation probably hasn't panned out as they had hoped, and they then see 23 year olds earning 40k in the PS (hypothetical example) with permanant unsackable jobs, it is perfectly natural to be jealous and want to see other peoples wages slashed ruthlessly so that they can feel better about themselves. Others however are genuinely concerned for the country and the way things are going, waste is all around us and it needs to be tackled if we are to have any chance of having a future for our kids. The bailout needs to be looked at again, I hope we get a strong team from the new coalition who can renegotiate our interest rate for us and give the country a bit of breathing space. I'm 30 years old with a young child and truly despair at what I see around me, due to family circumstances I can't emigrate but would probably be strongly considering it if it were an option, I know many others in my age group who have similar attitudes, what a pity.

P. Breathnach · 26-01-2011 01:19PM

RichardAnd wrote: »

... He replied, "it's not your fault it's there, but it's still your problem". Likewise, I am one of those who was too young to get myself into debt and too well raised to believe I should be given everything on a platter however, I am still paying for others mistakes. Hence, this mess isn't my fault, but it is still my problem.

You can't just cut yourself off from the outside world, no matter how much you (and I often feel like this), might want to.

Kudos to you for putting it down to your age that you didn't get into debt, rather than claiming that it was because you were clever. And it's not just the young that avoided the pitfalls; age is my excuse too, because my attitudes and habits were shaped by growing up in a time when people simply didn't have much to spend, and I have lived accordingly.

I'm with you all the way: our economic difficulties are my problem, too. I have this idea, which appears strange to some of the demon spawn of the Celtic tomcat, that we are tied to one another as members of one society, and that it is a good thing if we operate together for the general good.

There is a term for it: social solidarity. It seems to have dropped out of the political lexicon for many people. When our government introduces economic measures, many ask "what's in it for me?" which is fair enough, but fewer people ask the second question "what's in it for us?".

My personal circumstances are fairly comfortable. I don't object to being made a bit less comfortable if it is part of a programme that is for the general good.

fliball123 · 26-01-2011 01:29PM

mickeyk wrote: »

What a sensible post, as for the whole private v public thing, I used to post here regularly, not so much anymore but still check the forum every other day. As a poster above said the debate has been going around in circles for over two years now, with no new points being raised or evidence produced so I got sick of participating. There is no right or wrong answer IMO, some elements of the PS are massively overpaid and underworked, some are not, ditto the private sector. The new FG / Labour coalition has a difficult task on it's hands as it is likely that more paycuts will have to be brought in, at least they can show a clean pair of hands and blame FF, for a while. I do think some of the anti - PS posters here are simply bitter and jealous as their own work situation probably hasn't panned out as they had hoped, and they then see 23 year olds earning 40k in the PS (hypothetical example) with permanant unsackable jobs, it is perfectly natural to be jealous and want to see other peoples wages slashed ruthlessly so that they can feel better about themselves. Others however are genuinely concerned for the country and the way things are going, waste is all around us and it needs to be tackled if we are to have any chance of having a future for our kids. The bailout needs to be looked at again, I hope we get a strong team from the new coalition who can renegotiate our interest rate for us and give the country a bit of breathing space. I'm 30 years old with a young child and truly despair at what I see around me, due to family circumstances I can't emigrate but would probably be strongly considering it if it were an option, I know many others in my age group who have similar attitudes, what a pity.

I wouldnt say its jealousy its fear and the fact that the money is not there to pay these guys I wish it was but it isnt

Its official : public sector pay per hour is 49% higher than private sector

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