Why I won't be voting Sinn Fein

xoxyx · 24-01-2011 11:07pm #1

I grew up in an era where Sinn Fein was synonymous with the IRA. Now, I'm changing my views.

Ok - I don't like some of its policies. I have particular disregard for its united Ireland policy. I think that its leaders need to move away for the good of its party. At the same time, I have respect for a lot of the views of the newer members.

But, the reason I am not going to cast a single vote for Sinn Fein is because I do not believe any other viable party would be willing to form a government with Sinn Fein.

My view is that a vote for Sinn Fein is a moot vote in the Labour / FG battle. So, beliefs excepted and personal preferences taken into account, a smart vote would be for Labour.

Realistic views - the election battle is Labour and FG. Do you think a vote otherwise is a lost vote?

Nozebleed · 24-01-2011 11:28pm

I dont give a sh*t if FG dont want to go into government with SF. if they refuse to go into partnership they can fu*k off out off the country..

wolfpawnat · 24-01-2011 11:30pm

But if SF got the most votes and get the largest backing the other parties would change their tunes. SF and ULA for me all the way!

Nozebleed · 24-01-2011 11:34pm

Bashing SF is nonsense..they are the only all ireland party..and to me that means a lot..its time for a change a radical change..FF and FG are finished. voting for FG is a wasted vote. you just continuing the same old charade the only difference will be different faces.

Dr. Baltar · 24-01-2011 11:36pm

I like the way Sinn Féin has moved on from their past. People applaud Bertie Ahearne for the Peace Process and seem to forget Adams and McGuinness' role in the good Friday agreement.

I like the way, that they speak common truths that normal people can understand and agree with. Listening to Pearse Doherty's speech the day of the budget certainly won them a transfer vote for me at least.

What I do not like about Sinn Féin is the way they are anti-EU, anti-Free Market and in general a hell of a lot too economically left for my taste.
I'll put them on the ballot after Labour and Fine Gael.
I hope that they do well and especially hope that they do better than Fianna Fáil.

Dr. Baltar · 24-01-2011 11:38pm

Nozebleed wrote: »

Bashing SF is nonsense..they are the only all ireland party..and to me that means a lot..its time for a change a radical change..FF and FG are finished. voting for FG is a wasted vote. you just continuing the same old charade the only difference will be different faces.

Also, I agree with this entirely. Both Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil are two socially conservative, centre-right parties. Every generation we flip the same coin over and over again getting a different side to the same kind of politics.

Sinn Féin represent a different type of politics.

Nozebleed · 24-01-2011 11:44pm

Dr. Baltar wrote: »

I like the way Sinn Féin has moved on from their past. People applaud Bertie Ahearne for the Peace Process and seem to forget Adams and McGuinness' role in the good Friday agreement.

I like the way, that they speak common truths that normal people can understand and agree with. Listening to Pearse Doherty's speech the day of the budget certainly won them a transfer vote for me at least.

What I do not like about Sinn Féin is the way they are anti-EU, anti-Free Market and in general a hell of a lot too economically left for my taste.
I'll put them on the ballot after Labour and Fine Gael.
I hope that they do well and especially hope that they do better than Fianna Fáil.

i agree,as a party they have a lot to learn. but they should be given the chance..id like to see them doing well. but for other parties to refuse to go into government is a disgrace..it's the people's choice.

Lawrence1895 · 24-01-2011 11:45pm

Dr. Baltar wrote: »

Also, I agree with this entirely. Both Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil are two socially conservative, centre-right parties. Every generation we flip the same coin over and over again getting a different side to the same kind of politics.

Sinn Féin represent a different type of politics.

...and who were the first ones to offer their support in getting the Finance Bill through? Of course FG...this shows me how much they would change the country, how much they are interested in the well being of the working class :mad:

hamlet1 · 24-01-2011 11:46pm

this swing towards sinn fein really scares me.they are a northern ireland party and all they want is a united ireland.they dont give a damn about us otherwise,we are foreigners as far as they are concerned.

LeixlipRed · 24-01-2011 11:46pm

There is only one reason people should not vote for SF. They have put forward a left-wing economic agenda for the southern elections. However, in NI they are currently involved in delivering the Tory cuts through the NI Assembly and the power-sharing government. Hence, they're hypocrites attempting to pass themselves off as representing low and middle income workers. I implore anyone who agrees with SF's policies to consider voting for the ULA, the policies are the same but we actually represent a real alternative. We won't join a coalition with FF or FG which SF will do if given a chance (and hence they'll have to deliver cuts because both these parties have pledged to do so).

On the other hand, if people have to vote for an established party then I'd encourage them to vote for SF as opposed to FF/FG/Lab.

Dr. Baltar · 24-01-2011 11:47pm

Nozebleed wrote: »

i agree,as a party they have a lot to learn. but they should be given the chance..id like to see them doing well. but for other parties to refuse to go into government is a disgrace..it's the people's choice.

The best chance Sinn Féin have of getting into government would be with Labour, some Independents and the ULA.
That would make Labour a lot more happy as they could get their agenda passed a lot easier being the lead party and would make the others happy too as they really don't have a hope of being in government any other way.

Dr. Baltar · 24-01-2011 11:51pm

LeixlipRed wrote: »

There is only one reason people should not vote for SF. They have put forward a left-wing economic agenda for the southern elections. However, in NI they are currently involved in delivering the Tory cuts through the NI Assembly and the power-sharing government. Hence, they're hypocrites attempting to pass themselves off as representing low and middle income workers. I implore anyone who agrees with SF's policies to consider voting for the ULA, the policies are the same but we actually represent a real alternative. We won't join a coalition with FF or FG which SF will do if given a chance (and hence they'll have to deliver cuts because both these parties have pledged to do so).

On the other hand, if people have to vote for an established party then I'd encourage them to vote for SF as opposed to FF/FG/Lab.

To be fair, are economic policies really going to matter that much at the moment with the IMF looking after our Finances?

hamlet1 wrote: »

this swing towards sinn fein really scares me.they are a northern ireland party and all they want is a united ireland.they dont give a damn about us otherwise,we are foreigners as far as they are concerned.

Complete Tripe! To be fair to Sinn Féin they're always looking out for the underdog. They do great work in the poorer, urban areas of the country. In my own constituency they were the only party to go to travellers and help sort out a feud.

They also have an established LGBT section in their party and are constantly helping the people that the government turns a blind eye to (unless it's coming up to elections). To say they are a one track pony is just pure lies.

jam_mac_jam · 24-01-2011 11:51pm

Their leader is a liar, their economic policies are a joke but mostly their corruption and "contacts" would be enough for me. They havent gone away you know. Indeed.

Dr. Baltar · 24-01-2011 11:54pm

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

Their leader is a liar, their economic policies are a joke but mostly their corruption and "contacts" would be enough for me. They havent gone away you know. Indeed.

How is Gerry Adams a liar?

I agree that their economic policies are laughable.

Corruption? Contacts? Who haven't gone away?

Where's my cup of tea? Oh there it is.

sdanseo · 24-01-2011 11:54pm

Wait a sec.

Adams, McGuinness, Ferris.

All have danced with the devil that is subversive activity (allegedly) in their past.

That, and that alone, would be enough to put me off voting for them in their current guise. Let alone the oodles of other policies I do or do not disagree with.

There will I fear be a huge amount of ill-thought out badly motivated protest votes that will go SF's way...only hope not too many - they should never be allowed into a government of this country until they get rid of the bad eggs at the top. Regardless of how much I personally would love a united Ireland - they just have too much stigma attached and I think a fresh start for them would do them no end of favours.

Dr. Baltar · 24-01-2011 11:57pm

sdonn wrote: »

Wait a sec.

Adams, McGuinness, Ferris.

All have danced with the devil that is subversive activity (allegedly) in their past.

That, and that alone, would be enough to put me off EVER voting for them in their current guise. Let alone the oodles of other policies I do or do not disagree with.

There will I fear be a huge amount of ill-thought out badly motivated protest votes that will go SF's way...only hope not too many - they should never be allowed into a government of this country. Ever.

They're also the party that agreed to the Good Friday Agreement.

Nozebleed · 24-01-2011 11:58pm

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

Their leader is a liar, their economic policies are a joke but mostly their corruption and "contacts" would be enough for me. They havent gone away you know. Indeed.

i assume you mean FF.

jam_mac_jam · 25-01-2011 12:00am

Nozebleed wrote: »

i assume you mean FF.

FF are worse, wouldnt vote for them either.

LeixlipRed · 25-01-2011 12:01am

I love the way you didn't even comeback on my hypocrisy criticism Dr. Baltar. You lot are about as socialist as Eamonn Gilmore's wife

eddison · 25-01-2011 12:04am

Their leader is a liar, their economic policies are a joke but mostly their corruption and "contacts" would be enough for me. They havent gone away you know. Indeed.

Are you talking about Fianna fail, of fianna gael

You talk about lies haha! you talk about economic policies ha! FF, with agreement from FG squandered the most abundance ever created in this country, and not only squandered it, but got us into a 90 billion loan from the IMF LOL!
The Irish in the north that the south wanted to forget, were held over open fire, by the RUC. RUC used to go around at 2am, 3am, 4am, 5am in the morning around estates with sirens. I was there, I seen it. The 'dirty' Irish were being treated like something one steps on by the Government. Watch the film 'hunger'. You might not like them, maybe you are afraid of them, but some of these guys actually starved themselves to death. Have you any idea what kind of will that takes? Why did they do it ? come back here and tell us, if you dare disgrace the memory of those who died for Irish people they love. You have no clue what happened there because you were fed a diet of- the right message, by RTE.
I personally do not agree with their economic policies, but were you one of the people that voted FF in last time? SF can't be worse than FF. Thats impossible. FF did it in style, they nearly brought down the collapse of the whole E.U. and you speak of 'bad SF' lol!

The Volt · 25-01-2011 12:04am

I'm not Sinn Féin's harshest critic - but let's remember that they voted with FF/FG for the disastrous Bank Guarantee. Only Labour said no.

jam_mac_jam · 25-01-2011 12:08am

eddison wrote: »

I personally do not agree with their economic policies, but were you one of the people that voted FF in last time? SF can't be worse than FF. Thats impossible. FF did it in style, they nearly brought down the collapse of the whole E.U. and you speak of 'bad SF' lol!

I never voted FF or FG in my life, so your arguement oh FF are worse doesnt really apply.

Dr. Baltar · 25-01-2011 12:10am

LeixlipRed wrote: »

I love the way you didn't even comeback on my hypocrisy criticism Dr. Baltar. You lot are about as socialist as Eamonn Gilmore's wife

I didn't comment on it because I went running to wiki and the news. I'm ignorant of SF policy up north because it doesn't affect me and I don't see why their policies in one government (which works very very differently from our own anyway) would be the same as in the south. Two different regions/currencies/health systems/ect. policy is of course going to differ.

Also, I'm not socialist at all. I cry out for a lack of the Progressive Democrats.

LeixlipRed · 25-01-2011 12:10am

Voltwad wrote: »

I'm not Sinn Féin's harshest critic - but let's remember that they voted with FF/FG for the disastrous Bank Guarantee. Only Labour said no.

And SF have not ruled out coalition with either FF or FG. A position the ULA have pledged to adopt if candidates are elected. So, would SF sell out and join them in coalition and basically deliver the cuts they currently oppose? Well, we all know the answer to that

The Volt · 25-01-2011 12:12am

LeixlipRed wrote: »

And SF have not ruled out coalition with either FF or FG. A position the ULA have pledged to adopt if candidates are elected. So, would SF sell out and join them in coalition and basically deliver the cuts they currently oppose? Well, we all know the answer to that

SF would go in with anyone I suspect.

LeixlipRed · 25-01-2011 12:12am

Dr. Baltar wrote: »

I didn't comment on it because I went running to wiki and the news. I'm ignorant of SF policy up north because it doesn't affect me and I don't see why their policies in one government (which works very very differently from our own anyway) would be the same as in the south. Two different regions/currencies/health systems/ect. policy is of course going to differ.

Also, I'm not socialist at all. I cry out for a lack of the Progressive Democrats.

Sorry, your previous posts seemed to imply you were a SF supporter.

LeixlipRed · 25-01-2011 12:14am

Voltwad wrote: »

SF would go in with anyone I suspect.

Absolutely, they crave the legitimacy that being in power in the 32 counties would bring. They are complete hypocrites. According to some sources they've been purging leftists from the party down here for years now. They've no interest in pushing a true left agenda. Hence, if you're on the left you should vote ULA.

maccored · 25-01-2011 12:16am

LeixlipRed wrote: »

And SF have not ruled out coalition with either FF or FG. A position the ULA have pledged to adopt if candidates are elected. So, would SF sell out and join them in coalition and basically deliver the cuts they currently oppose? Well, we all know the answer to that

I'd hope sf dont get into government this time round, considering that whoever does will ge the blame for the pain thats going to come regardless who is in government.

Think of it though. FF ruined labour, then the PDs and now the greens have written themselves off. I suspect that *if* (and i doubt it would happen) sf ever went into power with FF, that they wouldnt be manipulated and as ball-less as any of the smaller parties who have already been chewed up and spat out by FF. In fact, I'd wager FF would be too afraid to go into power with SF - as would most other parties. They just wouldnt be able to use SF as scapegoats.

Dr. Baltar · 25-01-2011 12:17am

LeixlipRed wrote: »

Sorry, your previous posts seemed to imply you were a SF supporter.

I can see why.

I have no problem with people taking a stab at SF, but what does annoy me is the hypocrisy that a lot of people seem to have when taking such stabs. For example, when people state that they wouldn't vote for them because of past links with the IRA when both FF and FG can trace thier routes to the same organisation. What's the difference?

Guy:Incognito · 25-01-2011 12:18am

For a party that likes to throw mud around about other politicians and their actions and corruption, it's interestign to see a prominant SF member that apparently owns property in Walkinstown that has managed to get big houses built as mews in a back lane where no one else can............

The Volt · 25-01-2011 12:18am

Dr. Baltar wrote: »

I can see why.
I have no problem with people taking a stab at SF, but what does annoy me is the hypocrisy that a lot of people seem to have when taking such stabs. For example, when people state that they wouldn't vote for them because of past links with the IRA when both FF and FG can trace thier routes to the same organisation. What's the difference?

I'm not hung up on their past too much anymore. I'm more so hung up on how they supported the bailout and their implementations up North.

RightHalfBack · 25-01-2011 12:19am

Ill probably vote for Sinn fein and give second preference to Labour so the vote will essentially go to the Labour candidate. But listening to the labour guy on the frontline this evening was the very same as listening to any dinosaur FF or FG guy, he spoke for ages but said nothing.

Now whether you agree with Pearse Doherty or not at least he makes clear points with little waffle, so its very easy to decide if you agree with him or not.

Similar to Joe Higgins during the week, whether he was right or wrong at least he had the balls to say what he thought to be true,

LeixlipRed · 25-01-2011 12:22am

Dr. Baltar wrote: »

I can see why.
I have no problem with people taking a stab at SF, but what does annoy me is the hypocrisy that a lot of people seem to have when taking such stabs. For example, when people state that they wouldn't vote for them because of past links with the IRA when both FF and FG can trace thier routes to the same organisation. What's the difference?

Yeh I agree, I was implicitly making the point that people shouldn't be considering the IRA connections when considering whether to vote SF but rather just take the simpler view of their proven hypocrisy.

As for your point on different policies for different nations. I think you confuse individual, local policies with ideologies. I am saying that SF have two different (and opposing ideologies). Obviously policies at the micro scale will differ but you can't be giving with one hand and taking back with the other and not be a hypocrite.

jonnny68 · 25-01-2011 12:41am

LeixlipRed wrote: »

Absolutely, they crave the legitimacy that being in power in the 32 counties would bring. They are complete hypocrites. According to some sources they've been purging leftists from the party down here for years now. They've no interest in pushing a true left agenda. Hence, if you're on the left you should vote ULA.

well said -

they've been purging leftists from the party down here for years now. They've no interest in pushing a true left agenda

all true as well.

Pat D. Almighty · 25-01-2011 12:42am

LeixlipRed wrote: »

And SF have not ruled out coalition with either FF or FG. A position the ULA have pledged to adopt if candidates are elected. So, would SF sell out and join them in coalition and basically deliver the cuts they currently oppose? Well, we all know the answer to that

They have.

LeixlipRed · 25-01-2011 12:44am

Evidence please.

Balmed Out · 25-01-2011 12:44am

Dr. Baltar wrote: »

I can see why.
I have no problem with people taking a stab at SF, but what does annoy me is the hypocrisy that a lot of people seem to have when taking such stabs. For example, when people state that they wouldn't vote for them because of past links with the IRA when both FF and FG can trace thier routes to the same organisation. What's the difference?

Theres a big difference, a very big one. The ira of the war of independence bombed the ruc or the british army. the ira of recent years were as likely to target shopping centres or pubs. They were terrorists. Thats a very very big difference.

Its going to be very embarrasing to Irelands international image if they are going to be the largest party of the opposition.

Ont top of that their economic policies make no sense other then they dont expect ot have to try to stand by them as they know they will not be in power.

Pat D. Almighty · 25-01-2011 12:46am

Voltwad wrote: »

I'm not hung up on their past too much anymore. I'm more so hung up on how they supported the bailout and their implementations up North.

Sinn Fein did not support the bailout, where are you getting this information from?
And with regards to the North, as you are well aware, the North is an exception to left-right politics, as the Northern Assembly was set up as a conflict resolution mechanism. There is no leading party. The North has feck all control over it's fiscal affairs.
If Sinn Fein were to demand a left-leaning economic policy for the North, they would be laughed at from all sides, end up leaving the coalition and send the peace process back 20 years.
There is no other option at this stage.

LeixlipRed · 25-01-2011 12:48am

If you have no control over fiscal policy then you should withdraw from government and refuse to implement cuts. You're either with the working class or against them. That is no excuse! SF voted for the bank guarantee. And where is your evidence that SF have categorically ruled out coalition with FF/FG?

BLIZZARD7 · 25-01-2011 12:51am

Voltwad wrote: »

I'm not Sinn Féin's harshest critic - but let's remember that they voted with FF/FG for the disastrous Bank Guarantee. Only Labour said no.

Can you explain why it was disastrous? And maybe provide a viable alternative?

Thanks.

Dan

The Volt · 25-01-2011 12:52am

Pat D. Almighty wrote: »

Sinn Fein did not support the bailout, where are you getting this information from?
And with regards to the North, as you are well aware, the North is an exception to left-right politics, as the Northern Assembly was set up as a conflict resolution mechanism. There is no leading party. The North has feck all control over it's fiscal affairs.
If Sinn Fein were to demand a left-leaning economic policy for the North, they would be laughed at from all sides, end up leaving the coalition and send the peace process back 20 years.
There is no other option at this stage.

It's common knowledge that they voted in favour of it along with the government and Fine Gael.

Pat D. Almighty · 25-01-2011 12:52am

LeixlipRed wrote: »

If you have no control over fiscal policy then you should withdraw from government and refuse to implement cuts. You're either with the working class or against them. That is no excuse! SF voted for the bank guarantee. And where is your evidence that SF have categorically ruled out coalition with FF/FG?

If Sinn Fein withdraw from the assembly, where do you think that would leave the North? It would end up becoming the same Unionist-driven sectarian state that it was in past, which led to the Troubles.
Sinn Fein did not vote for the bank guarantee.
Martin McGuinness said on the Late Late Show that he categorically rules out going into coalition with Fine Gael and Fianna Fail.

LeixlipRed · 25-01-2011 12:52am

BLIZZARD7 wrote: »

Can you explain why it was disastrous? And maybe provide a viable alternative?

Thanks.

Dan

Are you taking the mick? The bank guarantee basically guaranteed the bondholders wouldn't be burnt and hence is the reason why we need this IMF bailout.

squod · 25-01-2011 12:56am

BLIZZARD7 wrote: »

Can you explain why it was disastrous? And maybe provide a viable alternative?

Thanks.

Dan

Though that was really obvious. The guarantees were a temporary measure given to the banks to allow them time to sort out their debts. That hasn't happened.

LeixlipRed · 25-01-2011 12:56am

Pat D. Almighty wrote: »

If Sinn Fein withdraw from the assembly, where do you think that would leave the North? It would end up becoming the same Unionist-driven sectarian state that it was in past, which led to the Troubles.
Sinn Fein did not vote for the bank guarantee.
Martin McGuinness said on the Late Late Show that he categorically rules out going into coalition with Fine Gael and Fianna Fail.

SF did vote for the bank guarantee. We've already had this argument this week. Do a google. As I said, SF are for the working class or against them, pull out of government and renegotiate a new arrangement which allows you to control fiscal policy OR deliver cuts and be hypocrites. Exactly what position does Martin McGuinness hold in the southern SF party?

Pat D. Almighty · 25-01-2011 12:56am

Voltwad wrote: »

It's common knowledge that they voted in favour of it along with the government and Fine Gael.

Sinn Fein never supported the bank bailout. If you go look at the Dail records, you will find that they voted against it. What they did support, and they are sorry that they did, was give Brian Lenihan greater powers as Minister of Finance, which he used to come up with the bank bailout.

The Volt · 25-01-2011 12:58am

BLIZZARD7 wrote: »

Can you explain why it was disastrous? And maybe provide a viable alternative?

Thanks.

Dan

It sold the people of Ireland, their children and their children's children down the river in favour of a select few. An alternative would have been to consider the people that they are elected to govern for and not the aims of their fellow travellers.

Pat D. Almighty · 25-01-2011 12:58am

LeixlipRed wrote: »

Exactly what position does Martin McGuinness hold in the southern SF party?

There is no separate North/South party. It's an All-Ireland party.

squod · 25-01-2011 12:58am

Pretty sure they voted in favour of the blanket guarantees.

Pat D. Almighty · 25-01-2011 12:59am

squod wrote: »

Pretty sure they voted in favour of the blanket guarantees.

Go back and check the Dail records....they did not vote in favour of the blanket guarantees.

lugha · 25-01-2011 12:59am

Voltwad wrote: »

SF would go in with anyone I suspect.

I suspect they wouldn't go in with anyone. They want to hurl on the ditch and play the populist card. I think they would be horrified if one of the big parties called their bluff.

Why I won't be voting Sinn Fein

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