Cross breeding

funny man · 23-01-2011 05:40PM

i'm interested in your change over to br/fr whelan what was your reason? and how did you arrive at the decision to use br/fr did you look into other breeds and decide against them and also why do you rule out the use of jersey, i think br/fr is a road i could go down but i'm not sure it's so hard to get accurate information on other breeds and teagasc didn't seem to bother doing trails on br/fr, why i just don't. i would like to hear views on nz/fr as to how good are they but without figures it's very hard to make a decision.

whelan1 · 23-01-2011 06:43PM

was on a farm walk last spring and saw jersey cross cows . they are so small , would cause me no end of trouble in the parlour,the reason i went for br/fr was to bulk the holsteind up a bit ... think the holsteins are gone too extreme

djmc · 23-01-2011 07:00PM

I find the temperment of the cows very good especialy the brown swiss and sweedish red.
by having calves feed milk in field keeped in small padocks and calling them when moving or feeding them has helped a lot with temperment of the whole heard.
Had problems with scc but am sorting it out deosan pre dip and better hygine
is stoping the spread from old to young cows
I cant cull too many as I am trying to build up numbers
scc can be spread to any cow if hygine is not right
No problems with calving but I think that is to do with feeding
If I think silage is poor I give them 2kg meal/cow a day before calving to keep condition on and give them energy to calf

jeff greene · 23-01-2011 07:24PM

djmc wrote: »

I find the temperment of the cows very good especialy the brown swiss and sweedish red.
by having calves feed milk in field keeped in small padocks and calling them when moving or feeding them has helped a lot with temperment of the whole heard.
Had problems with scc but am sorting it out deosan pre dip and better hygine
is stoping the spread from old to young cows
I cant cull too many as I am trying to build up numbers
scc can be spread to any cow if hygine is not right
No problems with calving but I think that is to do with feeding
If I think silage is poor I give them 2kg meal/cow a day before calving to keep condition on and give them energy to calf

Yeah, you have to work hard to have good SCC, any high SCC cows, I dip the clusters in peracidic acid to stop the spread, it works. Hopefully one day i will install a Clusterflush system, but for now the bucket works.

With good cull prices it may be false economy keeping really high ones?

stanflt · 23-01-2011 09:10PM

jeff greene wrote: »

Yeah, you have to work hard to have good SCC, any high SCC cows, I dip the clusters in peracidic acid to stop the spread, it works. Hopefully one day i will install a Clusterflush system, but for now the bucket works.

With good cull prices it may be false economy keeping really high ones?

i put in the clustercleanse with my new parlour- six months later avg scc hasnt changed

jeff greene · 23-01-2011 09:19PM

stanflt wrote: »

i put in the clustercleanse with my new parlour- six months later avg scc hasnt changed

I heard it was good

is your SCC high or OK, it works in stopping cross infection. if you have high SCC cows going into the tank it won't reduce it.

stanflt · 23-01-2011 09:24PM

jeff greene wrote: »

I heard it was good is your SCC high or OK, it works in stopping cross infection. if you have high SCC cows going into the tank it won't reduce it.

avg around 210000 every month. milk record monthly so no high cows going into tank. at a recent lmp meeting researchers said anything over 200000 was considered an epedemick

funny man · 23-01-2011 11:03PM

whelan1 wrote: »

was on a farm walk last spring and saw jersey cross cows . they are so small , would cause me no end of trouble in the parlour,the reason i went for br/fr was to bulk the holsteind up a bit ... think the holsteins are gone too extreme

fair enough that's the kind of advise i'm looking for, so the jex maybe out cause all my buildings cubicles and parlour are suited to large cows.

Still looking for figures on empty rates for 14weeks can anyone help me???

has anyone used nz/fr in the past or any other breed and have enough of them to compare empty rates.

dar31 · 23-01-2011 11:25PM

stanflt wrote: »

avg around 210000 every month. milk record monthly so no high cows going into tank. at a recent lmpmeeting researchers said anything over 200000 was considered an epedemick

showing your age there.

empty rate last spring '10 12%, '09 8%, 08 16%,
1300gl cow some brown swiss blood 15+ years ago now, some 2nd lact nor red. bar the reds all from stock bulls
ebi €28 fert something like €24.
just done diy ai course, for the sole reason of solids was on volume payment up to this month.
will consider jersey on hfs in the next few years.
down through the years we have always considered a fertile cow to be better than a milky one, not many liquid producers looked that way up until the last 5yrs +

funny man · 23-01-2011 11:34PM

dar31 wrote: »

showing your age there.

empty rate last spring '10 12%, '09 8%, 08 16%,
1300gl cow some brown swiss blood 15+ years ago now, some 2nd lact nor red. bar the reds all from stock bulls
ebi €28 fert something like €24.
just done diy ai course, for the sole reason of solids was on volume payment up to this month.
will consider jersey on hfs in the next few years.
down through the years we have always considered a fertile cow to be better than a milky one, not many liquid producers looked that way up until the last 5yrs +

this is the sort of info i need to make an educated decision as i believe i have to introduce another breed because the ho/fr breed is just not going back in calf and no OMAN son is going to sort this infertility mess that i am in.

jeff greene · 24-01-2011 08:02PM

funny man wrote: »

this is the sort of info i need to make an educated decision as i believe i have to introduce another breed because the ho/fr breed is just not going back in calf and no OMAN son is going to sort this infertility mess that i am in.

Teagasc are your best bet, they have alot of trials done in different breeds, I can't seem to find the studies online, but have a look here,

http://http://www.dairycrossbreeding.com/

http://http://www.selectsires.com/dairy/crossbreeding_101.pdf

There is alot more, just google.

stanflt · 24-01-2011 08:29PM

funny man wrote: »

this is the sort of info i need to make an educated decision as i believe i have to introduce another breed because the ho/fr breed is just not going back in calf and no OMAN son is going to sort this infertility mess that i am in.

try Fowlerstown Stan FLT. will sort all your troubles

5live · 24-01-2011 08:36PM

I used a lot of MRI years ago and found them good but i had a small quota so when that freed up i used holstein with good fertility(judged on rump width and protein%:rolleyes: but it worked). The rotbund may suit your situation too as they are a nice crossbred with good protein and excellent fertility and should cross well on holstein type cows. I also used jerseys and really like them but dont like giving away bull calves but the cows are excellent and really easy to calve even with continental bulls(big pelvis by the cows). Even using the jersey though, i assume you will be using high EBI straws, most of the friesian bulls on the approved list have better fertility figures so all (?) you are gaining is hybrid vigour (E100 a cow i believe from teagasc figures)

jeff greene · 24-01-2011 08:44PM

stanflt wrote: »

try Fowlerstown Stan FLT. will sort all your troubles

You have recommended him a few times, anything we should know?:rolleyes:

He is a solid bull, good pedigree for fertility with RUUD and GMI there, have you alot of faith in genomics?

whelan1 · 24-01-2011 08:51PM

jeff greene wrote: »

You have recommended him a few times, anything we should know?:rolleyes:

He is a solid bull, good pedigree for fertility with RUUD and GMI there, have you alot of faith in genomics?

mmmmm interesting that his user name is the same as the bull:o stan flt , not from meath by any chance

jeff greene · 24-01-2011 08:58PM

whelan1 wrote: »

mmmmm interesting that his user name is the same as the bull:o stan flt , not from meath by any chance

Busted:p

Well done on getting a bull into AI, i hope he does well, he certainly has the figurs

stanflt · 24-01-2011 09:15PM

jeff greene wrote: »

You have recommended him a few times, anything we should know?:rolleyes:

He is a solid bull, good pedigree for fertility with RUUD and GMI there, have you alot of faith in genomics?

have a lot of faith in genomics. got some bulls and cows tested last week. reason for testing the cows is for potential bull mothers. have a couple of really super cows that are none oman, and not already bull mothers;)

jeff greene · 24-01-2011 09:43PM

stanflt wrote: »

have a lot of faith in genomics. got some bulls and cows tested last week. reason for testing the cows is for potential bull mothers. have a couple of really super cows that are none oman, and not already bull mothers;)

I haven’t used any genomic bulls yet, although I have Aftershock ordered. For similer money I prefer the progeny tested bulls, better reliability and you get a liner.

The potential bull dams you have tested, what were the reason for picking them, pedigree or their performance? I guess with genomics the pedigree will have less to do with it.

stanflt · 24-01-2011 10:01PM

jeff greene wrote: »

I haven’t used any genomic bulls yet, although I have Aftershock ordered. For similer money I prefer the progeny tested bulls, better reliability and you get a liner.

The potential bull dams you have tested, what were the reason for picking them, pedigree or their performance? I guess with genomics the pedigree will have less to do with it.

no its all about the pedigree. without pedigree you cant have performance. tested a cow with 475kg milk 26.0kg [EMAIL="fat@+0.13"]fat@+0.13[/EMAIL], 17.0kg protein @0.02. shes from a ex90.3 cow. i have a feeling shes actually better.

doing this to hopefully get one step ahead. herd took a battering 3 years ago-lost 32

stanflt · 24-01-2011 10:10PM

jeff greene wrote: »

I haven’t used any genomic bulls yet, although I have Aftershock ordered. For similer money I prefer the progeny tested bulls, better reliability and you get a liner.

The potential bull dams you have tested, what were the reason for picking them, pedigree or their performance? I guess with genomics the pedigree will have less to do with it.

you should have a look at DXL DELABERGE LURECK. I Reckon hes what your looking for, higher ebi, kg fat and protein+% higher fertility and great linear. hes also sexed. ive used 20 straws already

funny man · 24-01-2011 11:07PM

Thanks for the links jeff and the info 5alive, i'm working away on it, sorry if i offend you stanflt but this horse ain't for turning i'm not using any bulls that get their EBI from OMAN, i have used OMAN himself in the past but every breeder in the country has used him as the only way to breed a high EBI bull.
If your potential bull dams are picked on pedigree and not preformance it surely calls into question the whole gene IRL program. Would it not be better to take the top performing cows and use these whatever the breed, like that exceptional cow that you have.

without pedigree you cant have performance

cant say i agree with you on this.

whelan1 · 24-01-2011 11:10PM

funny man , i opened a thread earlier on calf prices look at the difference in price between a br/fr and a hol/fr calf , i know we are not breeding to get a bull calf but its nearly twice the sale price of a hol/fr

funny man · 24-01-2011 11:20PM

whelan1 wrote: »

funny man , i opened a thread earlier on calf prices look at the difference in price between a br/fr and a hol/fr calf , i know we are not breeding to get a bull calf but its nearly twice the sale price of a hol/fr

looks like stronger bulls and heifers, it's nice to get a good price for calves but going by the profit monitor it only makes a small contribution to the pot.

jeff greene · 24-01-2011 11:22PM

stanflt wrote: »

you should have a look at DXL DELABERGE LURECK. I Reckon hes what your looking for, higher ebi, kg fat and protein+% higher fertility and great linear. hes also sexed. ive used 20 straws already

I am considering him for the heifers, i have Goldenboy and Dodge already for the cows, i never used Goldwyn and they have good proofs. The Semex bulls are pricey.

What pedigree are the AI stations looking for now?

jeff greene · 24-01-2011 11:30PM

funny man wrote: »

Thanks for the links jeff and the info 5alive, i'm working away on it, sorry if i offend you stanflt but this horse ain't for turning i'm not using any bulls that get their EBI from OMAN, i have used OMAN himself in the past but every breeder in the country has used him as the only way to breed a high EBI bull.
If your potential bull dams are picked on pedigree and not preformance it surely calls into question the whole gene IRL program. Would it not be better to take the top performing cows and use these whatever the breed, like that exceptional cow that you have.

cant say i agree with you on this.

I agree genomics is about finding outcrosses, you know, get a cow with good numbers, test her and ask her pedigree later. However that cow could be a one off and not be a good transmitter, so pedigree is still important.

Without pedigree you wont have performance. If the pedigree suits your system you will

bogman_bass · 25-01-2011 01:36AM

funny man wrote: »

Thanks for the links jeff and the info 5alive, i'm working away on it, sorry if i offend you stanflt but this horse ain't for turning i'm not using any bulls that get their EBI from OMAN.

GVV? half B FR and an EBI of 202

funny man · 25-01-2011 10:20AM

jeff greene wrote: »

I agree genomics is about finding outcrosses, you know, get a cow with good numbers, test her and ask her pedigree later. However that cow could be a one off and not be a good transmitter, so pedigree is still important.

Without pedigree you wont have performance. If the pedigree suits your system you will

yea, i agree you may come across cow that is a one off but that's where genomics come in, the problem i have with genomics is; a bulls figures are got by 66% parent average(Dam+sire/2) and 33%genomic so Oman sons have a massive advantage on paper. Like jeff i'm slow to use genomic bulls but i have used some.

I have a super looking herd of PBR ho/fr cows with no shortage of pedigree and they do preform on yield and solids but they just don't go back in calf easy, now either i'm a bad stockman or i have built up the wrong type of cow and this is crucifying me on my bottom line, at our profit monitor meeting i was second last on profit/hec, and i thought that this was because i wasn't highly stocked but it was explained to me my calving pattern is too scathered, too many late calvers and recycling big numbers of cows.
I know there is a variation of systems out there but i'm spring milk with no liquid contract so the most profitable option for me is to breed cows to suit.

jeff greene · 25-01-2011 12:06PM

funny man wrote: »

yea, i agree you may come across cow that is a one off but that's where genomics come in, the problem i have with genomics is; a bulls figures are got by 66% parent average(Dam+sire/2) and 33%genomic so Oman sons have a massive advantage on paper. Like jeff i'm slow to use genomic bulls but i have used some.

I have a super looking herd of PBR ho/fr cows with no shortage of pedigree and they do preform on yield and solids but they just don't go back in calf easy, now either i'm a bad stockman or i have built up the wrong type of cow and this is crucifying me on my bottom line, at our profit monitor meeting i was second last on profit/hec, and i thought that this was because i wasn't highly stocked but it was explained to me my calving pattern is too scathered, too many late calvers and recycling big numbers of cows.
I know there is a variation of systems out there but i'm spring milk with no liquid contract so the most profitable option for me is to breed cows to suit.

I like cow looking cows, I prefer the have them around but management is totally different. the guy down the road who has the NZ type cow can listen the Jack Kennedy and other teagasc experts and do well. If you have more Ferrari type cow, you cant. Both systems are profitable it is just the low input system suits some farms and cows and its what teagasc are promoting. However there are many herds with better cows than you or I than are making it work.

I might be trying to defend the devil here, but I hate blaming the cow:).

whelan1 · 25-01-2011 01:20PM

yup every farm is different , when i hear of people having their cows out on 1st february i am mad jealous , i would be lucky to have them out on paddys day. so these farmers have a massive advantage on me cost wise , i know the profit monitor is a good tool but every farm is different

funny man · 25-01-2011 02:19PM

jeff greene wrote: »

I like cow looking cows, I prefer the have them around but management is totally different. the guy down the road who has the NZ type cow can listen the Jack Kennedy and other teagasc experts and do well. If you have more Ferrari type cow, you cant. Both systems are profitable it is just the low input system suits some farms and cows and its what teagasc are promoting. However there are many herds with better cows than you or I than are making it work.

I might be trying to defend the devil here, but I hate blaming the cow:).

No i accept what your saying and i'm not blameing the cow either i am responable for taking advise from mostly breeding advisors and have gone down the wrong road for my system, i'm not in the camp that slag off the Ho/Fr breed they are exceptional at what they do and are very diverse as a breed but from my own view i think we have bred fertility out of them. I do read Jack Kennedy:rolleyes: and Teagasc publications but with an open mind as i will no longer take advise from someone who dosn't milk cows.

yup every farm is different , when i hear of people having their cows out on 1st february i am mad jealous , i would be lucky to have them out on paddys day. so these farmers have a massive advantage on me cost wise , i know the profit monitor is a good tool but every farm is different

i'm not sure how massive this advantage is, like you i generally don't get cows out until march but from studing profit monitors i think compact calving cows has more to do with profit no matter what the system e.g. my cows went out on March 04 last year but only 32% were calved so i had too many cows inside on silage the same dolls will finish their lactation on silage not getting full advantage of grass.

Cross breeding

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