Ireland - lack of air and naval defence.

mbiking123 · 07-12-2010 05:34PM

you mean an Afghan, speaking to an American diplomat with a wedge of cash in his pocket, said that he prefered American troops?

i am litterally struck dumb with shock. oh, hang on...

no because the british troops stay in their barracks/base and dont venture out

Poccington · 07-12-2010 06:02PM

mbiking123 wrote: »

no because the british troops stay in their barracks/base and dont venture out

Ah now here.

One thing the Brits can't be accused of in A'Stan is hiding in an FOB. That's just lies.

concussion · 07-12-2010 06:04PM

mbiking123 wrote: »

no because the british troops stay in their barracks/base and dont venture out

Utter crap. Tell that to the 1,500 or so who have been wounded in action since 2006. IED's account for approx 70% of casualties in Afghanistan, I suppose the Taliban must be placing bombs under beds, behind the tea and inside FHM's then?

mbiking123 · 07-12-2010 06:07PM

They spoke out after it emerged that Afghan leaders had told the Americans that British troops were “not up to the task” of fighting the Taliban in Helmand Province, scene of the bloodiest battles of the conflict, and had “made a mess of things”.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/8179684/WikiLeaks-portrayal-of-British-troops-effectiveness-in-Afghanistan-unfair.html

Poccington · 07-12-2010 06:11PM

mbiking123 wrote: »

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/8179684/WikiLeaks-portrayal-of-British-troops-effectiveness-in-Afghanistan-unfair.html

That's great but the article refers to troops being under resourced, it says nothing about the troops ability or will to get into the fight.

mbiking123 · 07-12-2010 06:16PM

Karzai is recorded as saying that after the arrival of just 14 US special forces in 2001 it was safe soon afterwards: ”Even Helmand was safe for girls to go school. Now, 4,000 [sic] British soldiers are in Helmand and the people are not safe”.
The UK military effort in Helmand was also criticised by top US officials. In late 2008, the US embassy said that without American support “we and Karzai agree the British are not up to the task of securing Helmand”.

http://www.thejournal.ie/wikileaks-reveals-us-and-afghan-scorn-for-british-military-2010-12/

OS119 · 07-12-2010 06:27PM

mbiking123 wrote: »

http://www.thejournal.ie/wikileaks-reveals-us-and-afghan-scorn-for-british-military-2010-12/

Karzai talks ****. the man is a congenital liar - and as wikileaks has also said 'he is a man deranged by his own paranoia'.

the man is so bent that if he ate a nail, he'd **** a corkscrew.

as Concussion has already noted (and i thank him for it) UK casualties are demonstratably being caused by weapons that could only be effective if UK forces are outside their patrol bases.

mbiking123 · 07-12-2010 06:40PM

I like it when you point out loads of lessons and professionalism we could be learning from BA, and others.

This is what started this side-discussion

Ok I see your point and I dont want to go off thread. A Para lost his life yesterday and I dont want to end up in some kind of slagging match as its unfair on those individuals who were doing their 'job' and achieves nothing

Just cause you send someone to learn off to a certain army does not mean it will make you better. The French and British army had better and more tanks at the start of WWII, however German tactics were better and they were always playing catch up after that with technology. At the start of the war they would have said they had best tactics however it did not take long to find out they were not.

Irish DF are best placed to see what suits them best. For example the Irish DF went with the steyr which is still in use. The British army went with SA80 at the same time. In the end the SA80 was completly redesigned by H&K I believe. The British army certainly have an excellent weapon however the development certainly cost alot. I dont think the Irish DF could have afforded such a change. The Steyr turned out to be a cheaper option than the SA80 which was considered

OS119 · 08-12-2010 12:10AM

if you think anyone is suggesting that the IA purchase the L85A2 you've obviously not read any of the threads that Avgas is talking about.

slagging something down without finding out what it is, and, by the way, being frightening wrong in your assumption about what it is, makes you look like an arrse.

mbiking123 · 08-12-2010 12:17AM

if you think anyone is suggesting that the IA purchase the L85A2 you've obviously not read any of the threads that Avgas is talking about.

slagging something down without finding out what it is, and, by the way, being frightening wrong in your assumption about what it is, makes you look like an arrse.

?

Did the SA80 have problems, for example on earlier versions the magazine release catch was on the side. troops in NI used boot laces and tied the magazines to their jackets. So if magazine fell off they would not loose the magazine. By putting the rifle across the body the magazine release catch could catch on the jacket. Had a straight magazine that was replaced with a curved type etc etc

alot of problems with that weapon, Irish DF got one weapon and still in service. where are those original SA80's ? Not that I really care. Must have hit a soft spot

Anyhow going off subject,

OS119 · 08-12-2010 12:44AM

mbiking123 wrote: »

?

alot of problems with that weapon, Irish DF got one weapon and still in service. where are those original SA80's ? Not that I really care. Must have hit a soft spot

Anyhow going off subject,

err... no, you read a comment by Avgas about information being posted that could/should help the DF stay current with evolving combat trends - you then gripped a non-existant stick, assumed that this meant that people were saying 'ditch the Steyr and go for L85A2' and honked off about how the DF had nothing to learn from anyone because the SA80 has had a troubled service record...

unfortunately no one has mentioned the SA80 in any of the threads that Avgas is talking about.

punchdrunk · 08-12-2010 12:46AM

just to point out the popes Puma and papa 242 were different aircraft
I believe the pope's visit involved one leased from the Bundeswehr

we leased the luxury aircraft built for Haile Selassie but he'd died before it was finished,aerospatiale didn't know what to do with it so a couple of years later they leased it to us,delivered in the summer of '81
(I was sat in the pilots seat when I was six weeks old

)

it was loved by the crews,definitely the best spec chopper we ever had in the IAC alas the bean counters sent it back :mad:

mbiking123 · 08-12-2010 01:12AM

err... no, you read a comment by Avgas about information being posted that could/should help the DF stay current with evolving combat trends - you then gripped a non-existant stick, assumed that this meant that people were saying 'ditch the Steyr and go for L85A2' and honked off about how the DF had nothing to learn from anyone because the SA80 has had a troubled service record...

unfortunately no one has mentioned the SA80 in any of the threads that Avgas is talking about.

I only making the point that you could send soldiers to the UK for training, receive good training but find its not appropriate for the Irish Defence forces. The Irish DF tested rifles and found the Steyr to be most appropriate. The current BA rifle is possibly better. The cost to get there would have potentially proved too expensive for Ireland.

Learning best practices is obviously important and the British army has the advantage of speaking the same language as the Irish DF for courses etc. The RN has learnt from the Falklands San Carlos incident, land troops and then get out immediately. Good information to learn but I dont think Irish DF will be doing any landings on this scale

The IDF raid on Entebee was done with help from SAS as they had experience in the area. This experience was proven from the embasssy siege. Good advice is good, but must be careful not to get lead astray. What may suit an armed force may not suit another one. The SAS room entry has been adopted by all western armies, and yet soviet do it slightly different. The SAS style is to divide up room bit like an arc of fire (thats my understanding) while soviet move apart to each corner as they enter door(once again my understanding) different techniques so whicg one should the Irish DF use ? I would imagine Western style. SAS peep around corners move steadily, while soviet will actually make a leap around a corner 'wesley snipes' hollywood style and do rolls, tumbles etc. SAS dont as have armour on etc. This is only my understanding but two different armies do it differently. You choose which one is correct

goldie fish · 08-12-2010 03:33AM

punchdrunk wrote: »

just to point out the popes Puma and papa 242 were different aircraft
I believe the pope's visit involved one leased from the Bundeswehr

we leased the luxury aircraft built for Haile Selassie but he'd died before it was finished,aerospatiale didn't know what to do with it so a couple of years later they leased it to us,delivered in the summer of '81
(I was sat in the pilots seat when I was six weeks old )

it was loved by the crews,definitely the best spec chopper we ever had in the IAC alas the bean counters sent it back :mad:

Popes Puma was Bundesgrenshutz. The old West german Border Police. Had Bugger fuel tanks on the sponsons. Don't think the Air Corps had any involvment, apart from providing a navigator.

The plan was to buy 2 Super Pumas when we returned 242, but as usual, someone in DoD is afraid of big helicopters, and they decided to get Non Naval Dauphins instead....

Avgas · 08-12-2010 10:18AM

There are loads of things we could be training with BA for-Blue on Blue state of the art is one pet topic I have in mind, but also building in low-level integrated IED EOD tactics, training and awareness is another. Mind you we have some boys over in Astan who are a dab hand at IEDS/EOD and doubtless have interesting tales to tell and lessons to impart...but I wouldn't know about any of that.

Suggestions that BA were sun-tanning in Helmand are a joke-some of the toughest fighting since Korea by all accounts. Just listening to vets of that would transform any RDF camp, no?

The SA80 connection...I dunno where you picked up that. In small arms what we'd be learning from the BA would merits/demerits of integration of DMR and LMG.. use of 'multiples' as OS119 was educating "armchair types" like me a few posts back, etc..........the actual rifle is more or less irrelevant as long as it works (does now for BA).

The big advantage of the BA is that because they lack sheer scale of resources and tech the US forces routinely have-that means they have to be innovative and resources are more limited and perhaps husbanded better and employed with a dose of more robust/austere logistical reality-which is closer to our world/reality where resources are Santa Claus wish lists for the most part. Yet having said that most Irish DF would weep in envy at some of assets and the scale of issue of gear which BA regularly get to play with. So its not like training with the Maltese Army....but neither do we feel totally 'unplugged' say if we had to play with a gizmo'd up Stryker brigade and all associated toys. Poor peasants that we are.

Cheers. Citizen Av.

PS. Language is not that big an issue-most of Nordic lads and lassies AFAIK speak more than passable Swedish chef type manglais......probably more understandable than somebody from Cork.:)......Inside the BA you'll find a healthy sprinkling of Welsh, and quite a bit of Fijian as well, and I'd venture Spanish would come in handy inside the US army these days-even though official language is 100% American.

mbiking123 · 08-12-2010 06:20PM

Just listening to vets of that would transform any RDF camp, no?

Transform it into what ?

punchdrunk · 08-12-2010 08:55PM

goldie fish wrote: »

Popes Puma was Bundesgrenshutz. The old West german Border Police. Had Bugger fuel tanks on the sponsons. Don't think the Air Corps had any involvment, apart from providing a navigator.

The plan was to buy 2 Super Pumas when we returned 242, but as usual, someone in DoD is afraid of big helicopters, and they decided to get Non Naval Dauphins instead....

cheers Goldie,thought it was German alright,

here's poor old P242 these days,looks like she was used as a testbed

Avgas · 10-12-2010 04:47PM

mbiking123 wrote: »

Transform it into what ?

words like RELEVANT, STIMULATING, SOBERING...all come to mind.:rolleyes:

mbiking123 · 10-12-2010 04:51PM

words like RELEVANT, STIMULATING, SOBERING...all come to mind.

All of that from a few war stories ?

Did not know RDF camps that bad

OS119 · 10-12-2010 05:08PM

mbiking123 wrote: »

All of that from a few war stories ?

Did not know RDF camps that bad

show a few videos and put an RDF platoon through an explosive ambush and 18 hour moving contact - yeah i think that might have a sobering effect.

mbiking123 · 10-12-2010 05:19PM

Just listening to vets of that would transform any RDF camp, no?

this is what was initially said to transform a RDF camp, which is alot different from -show a few videos and put an RDF platoon through an explosive ambush and 18 hour moving contact

OS119 · 10-12-2010 05:24PM

mbiking123 wrote: »

this is what was initially said to transform a RDF camp, which is alot different from -show a few videos and put an RDF platoon through an explosive ambush and 18 hour moving contact

bit pedantic and argumentative aren't we?

Poccington · 10-12-2010 05:55PM

Mbiking, if all you're going to do is troll this thread or not contribute to it at all, well then don't post in it.

mbiking123 · 10-12-2010 07:59PM

Mbiking, if all you're going to do is troll this thread or not contribute to it at all, well then don't post in it.

eh, its all on one page - troll the thread ?

mbiking123 · 11-12-2010 07:38PM

bit pedantic and argumentative aren't we?

no

Morpheus · 18-01-2011 03:27PM

put an RDF platoon through an explosive ambush

this is actually Coming to an RDF unit near you soon! along with C-IED training (",)

Poccington · 18-01-2011 09:10PM

Morphéus wrote: »

this is actually Coming to an RDF unit near you soon! along with C-IED training (",)

I see the Unit decided to leave out the 18 hour moving contact.

kevinhalvey · 23-01-2011 08:51PM

its proboly been discussed but there is a point just say a nation did attack and for example they had themselves a few mig`s i dont think that this http://www.google.ie/imgres?imgurl=http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt104/vor033/Irish%2520Defence%2520Force/b16cb2b6.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php%3F182130-Weekend-Pixs-3rd-and-4th-July-2010&usg=__MV1Wq0LTnAw7OGQeWpQjhJePj8E=&h=426&w=640&sz=45&hl=en&start=18&sig2=c6ohT966NeM6HtGbUz9h9A&zoom=1&tbnid=VztiTMbqK2nZ9M:&tbnh=128&tbnw=171&ei=T5Q8TebVEMGv8gPrsLmrCA&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dirish%2Bair%2Bdefense%2Bweapon%26hl%3Den%26biw%3D1366%26bih%3D589%26gbv%3D2%26tbs%3Disch:10%2C342&itbs=1&iact=rc&dur=679&oei=SZQ8TczSAsb54AbwkdSDAg&esq=2&page=2&ndsp=20&ved=1t:429,r:1,s:18&tx=57&ty=61&biw=1366&bih=589 will take it down nor can the df engage them in these http://www.google.ie/imgres?imgurl=http://www.salthillairshow.com/iac_pc9m/images/263_01.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.salthillairshow.com/iac_pc9m/index.html&usg=__hdMnZ3H_X5DQOudc5xYuOyxEE6s=&h=400&w=600&sz=42&hl=en&start=0&sig2=zbDS0rj7xnOMpR2Nwxvqfw&zoom=1&tbnid=UvSxosFgDJIvpM:&tbnh=130&tbnw=173&ei=iZQ8Tb6OKcf04QaTxdmwCg&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dirish%2Bair%2Bcorps%26hl%3Den%26biw%3D1366%26bih%3D589%26gbv%3D2%26tbs%3Disch:1&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=910&vpy=117&dur=3881&hovh=183&hovw=275&tx=161&ty=115&oei=iZQ8Tb6OKcf04QaTxdmwCg&esq=1&page=1&ndsp=18&ved=1t:429,r:4,s:0 i would say a spit fire would have a better chance but at least we have a decent enough army

mbiking123 · 23-01-2011 10:08PM

its probably been discussed but there is a point just say a nation did attack and for example they had themselves a few mig`s i dont think that this http://www.google.ie/imgres?imgurl=h...w=1366&bih=589 will take it down nor can the df engage them in these http://www.google.ie/imgres?imgurl=h...1t:429,r:4,s:0 i would say a spit fire would have a better chance but at least we have a decent enough army

the spitfire(when new) was slower than the Pilatus PC-9M

the weapon is a bofors L/70 (I think) http://www.military.ie/army/equipment/weapons/arty/l70/l70.htm

"Breda (now Oto Melara) of Italy uses the Bofors 40 mm L/70 gun in its anti-aircraft weapon system for the Italian Army and Navy"

http://www.search.com/reference/Bofors_40_mm_gun

its a standard military weapon in use by alot of countries, the picture showed members of the reserve shooting it. RDF formely called the FCA

concussion · 24-01-2011 10:05AM

The DF info page is woefully out of date, and the L/70 is the gun on the old mount. Ours are EL 70 with a motorised carriage and radar fire control. Much more capable altogether. Radar is capable of detecting and tracking high speed targets, gun is well capable of tracking them - whether it works in the real world is the big question though.

Ireland - lack of air and naval defence.

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