What is the fuss about Mad Men?

johnny_ultimate · 19-01-2011 2:24pm

I've always thought Betty - and maybe a few of Don's other 'love' (ahem) interests - was the only 'weak' female character on the show, almost resigned to a live of servitude. Joan is a very strong character: yes, she deals with rampant sexism (many episodes of the fourth season anyway strongly focus on it) but the way she deals with it - often, admittedly, just taking it when there's no other option - is compelling viewing. The episodes where she walks in and lays into the particularly piggish males are always satisfying.

But Peggy is the character that is the most well balanced, and I find sexism criticisms hard to justify with a female character such as hers on the show. She is often dismissed or looked down upon because of her gender, but this is the way things were back then. The way she can hold her own when Don says something extremely pig ignorant to her is admirable. The fact that she is where she is, and in many cases significantly more dominant than the guys around her

(like her 'boyfriend' subplot in season four, or the way she confidently strolls in to fire creative staff)

. Most of the male characters are sexist in this show, and the way the females deal and cope with this is one of the more interesting dynamics IMO, and one of the main thematic focuses of seasons three and four especially. Through Peggy - and I forgot to mention Sally, who is potentially the key to the whole theme! - we're slowly seeing an alternate and often very fun take on the women's rights movement. If the show continues on for another few seasons, I can see this dominating, particularly as Sally and Peggy's peculiar growth of independence and weird sexual awakenings have already begun in earnest!

fonecrusher1 · 19-01-2011 2:33pm

liah wrote: »

it's about men getting to do whatever the hell they want, treating the girls like crap, drinking and smoking all day, manipulating and sleeping with as many women as possible, etc.

but it's so goddamn interesting I can't really help myself.

See^ you women do like all that stuff deep down. Yessss!!! I win.

/runs out of the room without hearing any counter-argument...

liah · 19-01-2011 2:44pm

voxpop wrote: »

Are those points above not one of the main themes throughout the program - how life was in the 60s. How sexism was rampant, how it was normal to get hammered, drive home, crash your car and then just pay a fine. How everyone smoked, that drinking at work was accepted and nearly expected.

I dont see how it could make you angry really, its the setting for the show - its like getting angry at the Sopranos, because they are gangsters and you are against crime

It makes me angry because I can empathize so well and that kind of behaviour from men infuriates me in real life, so, via that empathy, it infuriates me there too.

I still find the show interesting and of course I recognize that it was part of the times. It doesn't mean it's not allowed to bother me, and the fact that it bothers me doesn't keep me from seeing it as quality programming. In fact, it's probably because of that that I consider it quality programming. It has an ability to hit home. A very effective one, at that.

I liked Joan until the

rape scene.. she stopped fighting

, because she knew what was going on and was manipulating the men while they thought they manipulated her, which was really the only way she could have control over the situation at the time. She was an interesting character, but I thought they cheapened her a bit after what I mentioned in the opener of this paragraph. I expected her to have more fight and self-respect.

Peggy, I'm still not entirely sure what I make of her. Yes, I like that she can hold her own with the lads, but I think they're trying a bit too hard with her character sometimes. I'm not sure how to describe it, either, so I'll digress on that one.

Don is just a selfish prick who I still just plain don't like. I think he bothers me the most because if I didn't see the seedier side I'd be half in love with him (he's certainly lovely to look at!) :pac: and that prospect terrifies me, knowing that people can be that seedy and manipulative and so quick to lie.. and to lie so easily and effortlessly.. and I'd never know the difference. I hate users, and Don is a user.

Betty's an odd character alright but I actually think she's one of the more interesting ones, and in the first two seasons she played her part as the beautiful little 50's housewife flawlessly. She drove me nuts never standing up to Don so it was a massive relief to me when she told him where to go. I kind of half want to like her for being able to finally break away from Don and do things for herself, and half want to hate her because of when she

slapped Sally

and a few other things related to her particular brand of mothering. I think she's a pretty realistic depiction of a woman raised in another time finally trying to do right by herself, but a bit in over her head at times and making a lot of mistakes along the way.

The rest of them I'm not too invested in, and it's been awhile since I've watched all of it anyway so I might as well end my ramblings on that note.

Point is, while the characters can be utterly infuriating sometimes it truly is a quality show, from pretty much any perspective.

Forest Master · 19-01-2011 2:48pm

I watched Season 1 and it's terrible. Boring - I spent the entire season waiting for something interesting to actually happen besides snide remarks & pompous smalltalk. It's just a bunch of chauvanist as*holes acting like as*holes while smoking.

tskk · 19-01-2011 2:57pm

I love Mad Men. Thank God BBC4 showed it late last year at a normal time not like RTE showing it at midnight?

I just love the style, the characters, Don is not a nice person but when you find out his past history you might be able to understand how he thinks. Roger is hysterical. His one liners are classic. There are so many characters and so many things going on but it all comes back to Don and whats going on in his world.

I would highly recommend it.

liah · 19-01-2011 2:58pm

Forest Master wrote: »

I watched Season 1 and it's terrible. Boring - I spent the entire season waiting for something interesting to actually happen besides snide remarks & pompous smalltalk. It's just a bunch of chauvanist as*holes acting like as*holes while smoking.

You should see my first post on Mad Men :pac: I thought the exact same thing. It was really hard to get into, the characters seemed so unlikeable.

In fairness though, I'd give the rest of it a go. It does get more interesting.

pickarooney · 19-01-2011 3:36pm

Forest Master wrote: »

I watched Season 1 and it's terrible. Boring - I spent the entire season waiting for something interesting to actually happen besides snide remarks & pompous smalltalk. It's just a bunch of chauvanist as*holes acting like as*holes while smoking.

Are you sure you're not mixing it up with Entourage?

liah · 19-01-2011 3:37pm

pickarooney wrote: »

Are you sure you're not mixing it up with Entourage?

I like Entourage

What's wrong with Entourage?!

voxpop · 19-01-2011 3:41pm

liah wrote: »

It makes me angry because I can empathize so well and that kind of behaviour from men infuriates me in real life, so, via that empathy, it infuriates me there too.

You must be a seething ball of rage after each episode :pac:

Don is a great character - looks like a superhero, top of his game, perfect wife and family, but is completely messed up inside and cant be happy.

I dont get the appeal of Peggy tbh - was waiting for her to crash and burn but it never happened (end of season 2). She has this superior attitude, it just grates on me.

btw - Im only finishing season 2, - spoiler tags appreciated

pickarooney · 19-01-2011 5:15pm

liah wrote: »

I like Entourage What's wrong with Entourage?!

Nothing in particular. I watch it myself, but it is chock full of chauvinistic arseholes acting like arseholes making snide remarks while waiting for something to happen.

I watch films about nazis, the Klan, the Catholic Church... but don't consider them bad films because the characters are not the nicest bunch of lads. Well-made portrayals of unlovely people are interesting to me.

Kylo Ren · 19-01-2011 5:18pm

This...

WilburWild · 19-01-2011 5:24pm

I totally agree with this. The first episode I thought was only so so but by the time I got to session 4 I thought it was the best show ever put on TV. The characters are what make the story. So many realistic complicated individuals who you will love but then see do stupid things as well. Just like real people. Not at all like the usual good person bad person senario you get in most shows.

Dozen Wicked Words · 19-01-2011 5:32pm

Its very long winded, very clever, just to be clever at times.

Fairly stupid plot twist where

it transpires Don stole his commanding officers identity

was straight from an episode of Dallas or Neighbours. Yet Dons response is brilliant.

Mostly unlikeable characters, the men and the women. A view of unpleasant consumerist right wing money driven muppets from the past in America.

Saying all that, I have still found myself staying up til god knows what time for the repeat on BBC 2, fuppin annoying that I can't think of a thing I like about it, but still watch it, curse you brain.

fonecrusher1 · 19-01-2011 5:52pm

Keno 92 wrote: »

This...

Ah sure i might give it another go. It is good show actually.

darkdubh · 20-01-2011 1:42am

Richard Dower wrote: »

Glee is mush, has been since the back 9 of S1 + all of S2, it was fantastic in it's first 13 eps. - i'd NEVER claim Glee as quality tv, but it's entertaining.

Have never watched Glee and never will.What little i know about it is enough to know i'd hate it.

phantom_lord · 20-01-2011 6:32am

It's an amazing show, definitely my favourite behind the wire. I can understand how it might not be to everyone taste and some find it boring but it's so well written and acted, has so much depth and other fantastic qualities. If you want to watch quality drama this is the show. It's the only show I've ever watched through fully a second time and it delivered.

liah wrote: »

You should see my first post on Mad Men :pac: I thought the exact same thing. It was really hard to get into, the characters seemed so unlikeable.

Unlikeable? I've never heard anyone say something like that! I wonder if it's a gender thing maybe, thinking about it I've only ever talked about the show with other men and everyone pretty much thinks Don and Roger are kings!

grungepants · 20-01-2011 7:26am

I know the most out of all of you.I write for a show called 30rock.Its a good show.Mad men is bad.So is any show about animal rescuing or zoo's.Remember lost.Remember how boring its was..."oh but what about the secret door?"....NO!!! shut up....shows like these are an exuse for beautiful and ugly people to shy away from social interaction...

trolly troll troll

metrovelvet · 20-01-2011 12:17pm

I am very new to watching this show, have seen a few episodes here and there so my sense of continuity is not great, but so far I am well impressed and aside from my guilty pleasure Gossip Girl, this is the only show I look forward to and make a point of trying to hunt down and see.

I dont have a problem [yet] with the characters being unlikable or Don being a very flawed individual, the anti hero was the convention at the time, but I get what Liah is saying, sometimes I think 'you better do something really quickly to make me want to watch you' because this can get old fast. So throw some contradiction in there somewhere.

I do think I am seduced by the booze and the cigarettes, the eccentricities, the lipstick, the clothes, the lack of PC, the lack of regulation, the hats, the art and the aesthetics.

liah · 20-01-2011 12:57pm

phantom_lord wrote: »

Unlikeable? I've never heard anyone say something like that! I wonder if it's a gender thing maybe, thinking about it I've only ever talked about the show with other men and everyone pretty much thinks Don and Roger are kings!

That's a bit depressing. Remind me not to get to know any men you know :pac:

Earthhorse · 20-01-2011 1:34pm

Watched the first season and can't say it grabbed me at all. Well acted and a lovingly recreated era, sure, but mostly unengaging and a little silly in places, I thought.

phantom_lord wrote: »

Unlikeable? I've never heard anyone say something like that! I wonder if it's a gender thing maybe, thinking about it I've only ever talked about the show with other men and everyone pretty much thinks Don and Roger are kings!

Well, I'm a dude, and one of the reasons I disliked the show was because there was no one to cheer for. They're all pretty unlikable, including the women.

BlaasForRafa · 20-01-2011 1:45pm

Earthhorse wrote: »

Well, I'm a dude, and one of the reasons I disliked the show was because there was no one to cheer for. They're all pretty unlikable, including the women.

If you're a straight bloke and you don't like Joan then theres something wrong with you

Earthhorse · 20-01-2011 1:48pm

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

If you're a straight bloke and you don't like Joan then theres something wrong with you

If you're a straight bloke then why are you winking at me? :eek:

BlaasForRafa · 20-01-2011 4:55pm

Earthhorse wrote: »

If you're a straight bloke then why are you winking at me? :eek:

Its your fascinating personality of course.

phantom_lord · 20-01-2011 8:12pm

liah wrote: »

That's a bit depressing. Remind me not to get to know any men you know :pac:

Harsh! in fairness he's exceeding cool, dapper, ballin', awesome at his job and just purely a man's man. But I don't think we're ever really going to judge him too hard for his transgressions though.

liah · 20-01-2011 9:46pm

phantom_lord wrote: »

Harsh! in fairness he's exceeding cool, dapper, ballin', awesome at his job and just purely a man's man. But I don't think we're ever really going to judge him too hard for his transgressions though.

He's also a liar, a manipulator, a chauvinist (at times), a cheater, etc..

metrovelvet · 20-01-2011 9:49pm

phantom_lord wrote: »

Harsh! in fairness he's exceeding cool, dapper, ballin', awesome at his job and just purely a man's man. But I don't think we're ever really going to judge him too hard for his transgressions though.

He's a cad, a fraud, an imposter, a womaniser, a Nixon supporter, and wears a hat when everyone else has stopped wearing them.

liah · 20-01-2011 9:51pm

metrovelvet wrote: »

He's a cad, a fraud, an imposter, a womaniser, a Nixon supporter, and wears a hat when everyone else has stopped wearing them.

In fairness though that hat is kinda cool..

metrovelvet · 20-01-2011 10:01pm

liah wrote: »

In fairness though that hat is kinda cool..

Oh I agree. No dispute there. He is very cool...he is all cool. Doesnt say much, secret history, displays invulnerability [from what I have seen so far.. my perspective is limited at present], is the definition of cool.. be interested to see how his 1950s coolness fares in the heat of the 1960s.

He is also a self made man, a survivor, a troubled past and the successful embodiment of American obsessions, identity and the pursuit of happiness, the little boy from the midwest who makes it in the big city.

*Sorry Liah- I misread your post. I didn;t notice you said HAT. Im definitely into the hat. I love hats. Big thumbs up.

phantom_lord · 20-01-2011 10:37pm

liah wrote: »

He's also a liar, a manipulator, a chauvinist (at times), a cheater, etc..

Meh...

pickarooney · 20-01-2011 11:03pm

metrovelvet wrote: »

He's a cad, a fraud, an imposter, a womaniser, a Nixon supporter, and wears a hat when everyone else has stopped wearing them.

He was wearing a hat before everyone else started wearing them again.

metrovelvet · 20-01-2011 11:10pm

pickarooney wrote: »

He was wearing a hat before everyone else started wearing them again.

When did people start wearing hats again?

trishasaffron · 20-01-2011 11:27pm

I've watched the first 3 series on DVD - this is the very first boxed set I've watched and followed! I adore it - Don is my favourite character - he is so bad and so scarey and so cool. I don't like Don when he's being a good domestic hubbie like in series 3 - but reading between the lines here I reckon he's reverting to his old bad ways soon......;)

Roger's lines are funny and clever. The women in general are harder to identify with - I guess that's because of the period its set in.

When I watch an episode I get competely enthralled - its like I've entered another world - I feel dazed afterwards.

Some of the period detail is so funny - apart from all the booze and ciggies - did you see the episode (series 1 or 2) when after a picnic in a country beauty spot Betty threw all the rubbish on the ground and Don flung his can into the trees. O Tempora O Mores!

pickarooney · 20-01-2011 11:35pm

trishasaffron wrote: »

Some of the period detail is so funny - apart from all the booze and ciggies - did you see the episode (series 1 or 2) when
after a picnic in a country beauty spot Betty threw all the rubbish on the ground and Don flung his can into the trees.
O Tempora O Mores!

That was the single most shocking moment in the series so far for me, just ahead of the

lawnmower scene

.

ixoy · 20-01-2011 11:39pm

trishasaffron wrote: »

Some of the period detail is so funny - apart from all the booze and ciggies - did you see the episode (series 1 or 2) when after a picnic in a country beauty spot Betty threw all the rubbish on the ground and Don flung his can into the trees. O Tempora O Mores!

For me it was when Roger

did a minstrel routine. I cringed (although some of the younger crowd, like Pete, did too).

liah · 20-01-2011 11:45pm

pickarooney wrote: »

That was the single most shocking moment in the series so far for me, just ahead of the
lawnmower scene
.

What about

Blackface

? :pac:

Geansai Rua · 21-01-2011 12:49am

I will be working in an ad agency in a few years.. (hopefully)

Would be amazing if they are unchanged since the 1960's

The smoking, the drinking...:) and I am planning to morph into Joan.

pickarooney · 21-01-2011 10:00am

liah wrote: »

What about
Blackface
? :pac:

To be honest, having appeared in a school musical in the 90s featuring

blackface minstrels

, this has no effect on me.

The Corinthian · 21-01-2011 10:19am

trishasaffron wrote: »

Some of the period detail is so funny - apart from all the booze and ciggies - did you see the episode (series 1 or 2) when after a picnic in a country beauty spot Betty threw all the rubbish on the ground and Don flung his can into the trees. O Tempora O Mores!

I think this is one of the more interesting things about Mad Men. All too often, a historical drama series will overlay our own contemporary morals and attitudes, which is wildly unrealistic.

Mad Men made a point (an exaggerated one in the first season) to portray the actual morals and attitudes of the time and how they were considered normal - as normal as we consider our own. If the shock of that does not cause us to reflect on the nature of our own morals and attitudes, I don't know what will.

liah wrote: »

He's also a liar, a manipulator, a chauvinist (at times), a cheater, etc..

He also, despite being a man of his times, displays considerably more sympathetic and less bigoted attitudes to many his peers. As the series progresses, he's shown to have views on sexism, homosexuality and race that we would consider almost 'modern'. For example,

he was the only one to identify Peggy's talent in season 1, even though pretty much everyone else automatically dismissed her on the basis of gender and despite his obvious chauvinism and womanizing, is one of the few who, with her, actually develops a purely platonic friendship with a woman (at least up to season 4 inclusive)

. Combined with his vices and flaws and demons, it makes him a very interesting character.

And, TBH, despite his ruthless womanizing (or because of it), I suspect that many women would if he asked...

http://rutube.ru/tracks/3289858.html?v=aa4ed758f5c3cbf07d7f89782dda95d8

metrovelvet · 21-01-2011 11:02am

^
Re Peggy:

I suspect Peggy has craftily played on the low expectations set for women [which was clevery foiled against the spoiled privaleged college boy Pete-where there were greater expectations]. In other words its an amazing feat if a woman comes up with a few good ideas, but not so amazing if someone like Pete does.

pickarooney · 21-01-2011 11:11am

metrovelvet wrote: »

^
Re Peggy:

I suspect Peggy has craftily played on the low expectations set for women [which was clevery foiled against the spoiled privaleged college boy Pete-where there were greater expectations]. In other words its an amazing feat if a woman comes up with a few good ideas, but not so amazing if someone like Pete does.

They work in different departments though - she's in Creative with Don while Pete is in Accounts.

metrovelvet · 21-01-2011 11:22am

pickarooney wrote: »

They work in different departments though - she's in Creative with Don while Pete is in Accounts.

My point was more about the expectations - the departments they work in are incidental.

pickarooney · 21-01-2011 2:00pm

In that she was hired as 'just' a secretary, yes there would not have been any expectations of her and nobody could have considered comparing her directly with Pete who was parachuted in as an executive... so I'm not sure what point you're trying to make exactly.

Earthhorse · 21-01-2011 2:57pm

The Corinthian wrote: »

Mad Men made a point (an exaggerated one in the first season) to portray the actual morals and attitudes of the time...

Actually, this was one of the things that annoyed me about it. Approaching the show, I thought it would be about the advertising world and how it was invented, or re-invented, by Madison Avenue. I thought we'd see some clever ideas and brilliant business strategies. Instead, that world mostly played as a backdrop and the writers seemed more interested in the soap opera of the characters' everday lives; this includes drinking in the office every time you win a new account, prevent an old one from leaving, open a door or answer a phone.

riffmongous · 22-01-2011 3:13am

Personally, I find it interesting, but slow and boring. I used to watch it just because of the ridiculous hour it used to be on RTE, I'd be up late studying and I'd keep the tv on.

One of my first impressions was how unlikeable all the characters are, especially the main character Don, and that put me off for a while. But once I saw some of the later episodes once some of the other characters had developed a bit more (mainly Peggy) it does get quite interesting. Its just that it takes so long for everything to happen that'd I'd never be able to watch it religiously.

I also think its quite strange how for a show that deals with sexism as one of its main issues, it gets a lot of its attention from the objectification of one of its characters..

Anyway, just my 2c

phantom_lord · 22-01-2011 5:44am

riffmongous wrote: »

I'd be up late studying and I'd keep the tv on.

I don't think you can really do that with mad men, at least not without doing it a great disservice. it's the minutiae that makes the show.

riffmongous · 23-01-2011 1:50am

That's fair enough, but personally I don't get any enjoyment out of the setting/details, I usually enjoy story/script rather than visual.

iguana · 23-01-2011 5:06am

pickarooney wrote: »

Just for curiosity's sake, I did an average count of the number of words of dialogue in 3 Mad Men episodes and the same for 3 Sopranos episodes and the Sopranos was about 10% higher. There isn't a huge amount of talking in Mad Men; I'd say each line is carefully written to avoid yip-yap.

Please tell me you had copies of the scripts on your computer and did a word count.:eek:

Diddler1977 · 23-01-2011 11:12am

Geansai Rua wrote: »

I will be working in an ad agency in a few years.. (hopefully)

Would be amazing if they are unchanged since the 1960's

The smoking, the drinking...:) and I am planning to morph into Joan.

I bought a pen on a chain yesterday. I plan to wear it to work on Monday ala Joan

pickarooney · 23-01-2011 2:22pm

iguana wrote: »

Please tell me you had copies of the scripts on your computer and did a word count.:eek:

I just downloaded the subtitle files and use Word's word count. No rainmannery

phantom_lord · 23-01-2011 5:21pm

riffmongous wrote: »

That's fair enough, but personally I don't get any enjoyment out of the setting/details, I usually enjoy story/script rather than visual.

I meant with regard to the acting and storyline.

What is the fuss about Mad Men?

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