Its official : public sector pay per hour is 49% higher than private sector

Welease · 15-01-2011 02:56PM

kceire wrote: »

Do the figures.........

Why not just answer the question.. It was a civil question to check your figures...

Are you basing your pension that you have quote in multiple threads on your current salary (of 38K according to Head The Wall) or on your proposed final salary?

Head The Wall · 15-01-2011 03:14PM

I have, its you that has your figures wrong

macannrb · 15-01-2011 03:19PM

kceire wrote: »

And I told you PS workers do pay their pensions.
So Maybe a reading class or two wouldnt go astray for you too ...... Same BS again, when toe given factual figures you resort to insults.......the mind boggles at times

I asked a question, and you replyed saying in effect there is a pension levy and then tell me to get my facts straight. So yes again, what facts? there was no facts in my question to get straight.

Oh and your "actual facts" have been shown by kaizer in the past to be mis represented.

I'd say your mind boggles alright. I retract my comment about teachers, in an earlier post, some cases are lost causes.

kaiser sauze · 15-01-2011 03:28PM

kceire wrote: »

Do the figures.........

He did, much better than you do them.

Like I said you need to get sound financial advice as the last adviser you dealt with was clearly a paid lemon who only wanted you to pay into a private AVC.

macannrb · 15-01-2011 03:29PM

EF wrote: »

This is, in my opinion, the big problem in the country at the moment. I'll take your word on the 300k people who bought between 2004-2008 because I have no other figures to hand.

I don't think that anyone will disagree that wages cannot be kept at a level to meet the mortgage repayments of massively over-priced houses. But it is a problem both in the public and private sector and we can't go repossessing every house as it is illogical.

A partial debt forgiveness might be the only solution to allow wages to be brought down further without leaving thousands of people destitute. But even this will require further bank recapitalisation so we will all have to pay for this in one way or another I reckon. (Note - I don't have a massive mortgage)

This is certainly the case. many have overpaid for houses, and now that their wages are coming down, either by tax hikes, lay offs, reduced working hours, people are in serious problems.

But are you rightly pointed out, debt forgiveness means the tax payer would also take the hit, through its bank guarentee. I think it would be a good idea, once there was sever restrictions as a result. IMO the banks should have had very server restrictions on put on them for having to take government support, sweden did this, the execs had to take very harsh pay cut backs and pensions were removed too.

But at least debt forgiveness would be available to all, PS and Private

Gumbo · 15-01-2011 03:33PM

kaiser sauze wrote: »

He did, much better than you do them.

Like I said you need to get sound financial advice as the last adviser you dealt with was clearly a paid lemon who only wanted you to pay into a private AVC.

I have, from 2 actually. Both private sector institutions.
And I'd still opt out of my PS pension tomorrow if I had the choice.

macannrb · 15-01-2011 03:50PM

kaiser sauze wrote: »

Like I said you need to get sound financial advice as the last adviser you dealt with was clearly a paid lemon who only wanted you to pay into a private AVC.

I think the best financial advice is from yourself. Go out, get a full understanding of the products, build your own spreadsheets for future predictions, understand what risks of the assumptions you are using, compare with friends who know a lot about finances and money, see their spreadsheets. don't rely on the media, or anyone in the industry.

Welease · 15-01-2011 04:14PM

kceire wrote: »

I have, from 2 actually. Both private sector institutions.
And I'd still opt out of my PS pension tomorrow if I had the choice.

So... (getting bored here).. will you please tell us if the figures you have provided are based on final salary?

I am guessing you have based them on current salary, and your continual posting on here about you salary has been factually incorrect from day one..

A little intellectual honesty wouldnt go amiss here, considering you are happy to tell others to

kceire wrote: »

Please get your facts correct when using them in an argument.

Head The Wall · 15-01-2011 04:24PM

kceire wrote: »

I have, from 2 actually. Both private sector institutions.
And I'd still opt out of my PS pension tomorrow if I had the choice.

Let me simplify it for you

Theoretical figures based on what you currently pay for your pension and what your salary is. We'll take it that these don't change to make it easier to follow

€309 x 12 months x 40 years = €148320. This is what is paid in

1.5 x €38,000 = €57,000 (Tax Free Lump sum)

€148,320 - €57,000 = €91320, this is what's left of the pension pot you have contributed to

€91320 / €19000 (50% pension) = 4.8

So there you go, what you have contributed pays your lump sum and 4.8 years of pension payments.

doc_17 · 15-01-2011 04:28PM

....and people who never worked a day in their life and never paid a penny into anything get over 200 quid a week......

Head The Wall · 15-01-2011 04:35PM

Maybe the Public sector should take up that issue with their employer and try to do something about it. It's an issue that affects all taxpayers, same as flat rate indefinite dole for wasters

macannrb · 15-01-2011 04:41PM

doc_17 wrote: »

....and people who never worked a day in their life and never paid a penny into anything get over 200 quid a week......

Welfare should be halfed and entitlments should cease far quicker then they do already. welfare is costing this country 20bn a year, which is crazy when you consider we are borrowing this money.

cursai · 15-01-2011 04:42PM

Head The Wall wrote: »

Maybe the Public sector should take up that issue with their employer and try to do something about it. It's an issue that affects all taxpayers, same as flat rate indefinite dole for wasters

If we stop paying into our pensions whos gonna fund the pension reserve fund thats currently being used to pay for the country?

Welease · 15-01-2011 04:43PM

Head The Wall wrote: »

Let me simplify it for you

Theoretical figures based on what you currently pay for your pension and what your salary is. We'll take it that these don't change to make it easier to follow

€309 x 12 months x 40 years = €148320. This is what is paid in

1.5 x €38,000 = €57,000 (Tax Free Lump sum)

€148,320 - €57,000 = €91320, this is what's left of the pension pot you have contributed to

€91320 / €19000 (50% pension) = 4.8

So there you go, what you have contributed pays your lump sum and 4.8 years of pension payments.

Well in fairness, it should be longer than that your calculations.. PS workers do pay PSRI, and as far as I am aware the basic contrib state pension is deducted from their PS pension (or is part of the 50%).. So that does need to be factored in.

Welease · 15-01-2011 04:45PM

cursai wrote: »

If we stop paying into our pensions whos gonna fund the pension reserve fund thats currently being used to pay for the country?

Who's gonna pay the current PS pension shortfall of €108 billion?

http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_1018283.shtml
http://www.audgen.gov.ie/documents/vfmreports/68_Central_Gov_Pensions.pdf

RobbieTheRobber · 15-01-2011 04:52PM

macannrb wrote: »

I judge from you spelling errors, this is written in the heat of the moment, and you are fairly angry.

What is that saying, oh yes I remember people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

To pick on spelling mistakes and then to make them yourself what does that make you look like?

macannrb wrote: »

to some extend I agree. but i think part of the reason is that they want to keep the election as far away from the date of teh IMF. this is a real low point in the history of economic Ireland. The electrate is very feable and many will forget that this has happened. Especially since the OAP pension hasnt been touched, etc etc

I assume you typed this in anger because of your spelling and grammar mistakes. :rolleyes:
Or maybe it goes to show the state of Irish education and perhaps even could be used as a reason not to reduce spending in this area for fear that basic education standards may get worse.

ardmacha · 15-01-2011 05:30PM

Who's gonna pay the current PS pension shortfall of €108 billion?

There isn't a "current" pension liability of €108 billion. These pensions are payable up to 50 years in the future and can be paid from the economy of the future.

It is like saying that there is a €100 billion liability for road maintenance in the next 100 years when in fact roads will be maintained each year from the economy of that year.

There is a genuine issue about increased lifespan and pensions, which is being addressed by an increased retirement age and more may need to be done in this regard. But all of this talk of imaginary funds with imaginary deficits is just timewasting nonsense.

macannrb · 15-01-2011 05:32PM

cursai wrote: »

If we stop paying into our pensions whos gonna fund the pension reserve fund thats currently being used to pay for the country?

This is one of the problems, we dont really have a pensions fund (the assets of the NPRF are about 5bn per the above link, and the liabilities are 100bn, so its very much like pissing on a blazing house to put it out, its not worth a curse, in the scheme of things). We have people paying in, and we have money going out to PS pensioners. there never has been a fund per say as many believe.

Its actually very like a ponzi scheme

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

I assume you typed this in anger because of your spelling and grammar mistakes. :rolleyes:
Or maybe it goes to show the state of Irish education and perhaps even could be used as a reason not to reduce spending in this area for fear that basic education standards may get worse.

Thank you robbie, but any time I make a personal comment, I try to have at least one useful thing to say. Maybe you could try the same. But a contributor, not just a sneer. It shows that my comments are made calmly. You could learn a thing or two. By the way i'm Dyslexic

macannrb · 15-01-2011 05:40PM

ardmacha wrote: »

There isn't a "current" pension liability of €108 billion.

this is wrong.
wikipedia(and IFRS) defines a liability as;

a liability is defined as an obligation of an entity arising from past transactions or events, the settlement of which may result in the transfer or use of assets, provision of services or other yielding of economic benefits in the future.

So, since the PS worker, has worked a year, he is entitled to a little more of a future stream of money in the form of a pension. The year's work is a park transaction, which will be settled by money.

.

It is like saying that there is a €100 billion liability for road maintenance in the next 100 years when in fact roads will be maintained each year from the economy of that year.

Its not like saying that at all. Because there hasn't made a transaction setting out that the roads will be maintained.

There is a genuine issue about increased lifespan and pensions, which is being addressed by an increased retirement age and more may need to be done in this regard. But all of this talk of imaginary funds with imaginary deficits is just timewasting nonsense.

Its not an imaginary deficit as PS workers are legally entitled to these accrued liabilities. this entitlment is very real unless im missing something.

Head The Wall · 15-01-2011 05:41PM

Welease wrote: »

Well in fairness, it should be longer than that your calculations.. PS workers do pay PSRI, and as far as I am aware the basic contrib state pension is deducted from their PS pension (or is part of the 50%).. So that does need to be factored in.

Yes they pay PRSI as do private sector workers, but can we really say that those payments go towards the OAP when someone that has never paid PRSI receives €10 a week less than someone who has.

It looks like paying PRSI entitles you to €10 a week extra and thats it

RobbieTheRobber · 15-01-2011 05:43PM

macannrb wrote: »

Thank you robbie, but any time I make a personal comment, I try to have at least one useful thing to say. Maybe you could try the same. But a contributor, not just a sneer. It shows that my comments are made calmly. You could learn a thing or two. By the way i'm Dyslexic

I dont care to know anything about you personally, you have no kowledge of me. Perhaps I could also have dyslexia.
Your comment about my spelling was a sneer and dont try to now claim anything other than that. You made an attempt at an insult towards me and then tried to hide it behind spelling, I then catch you making similiar mistakes.

I did not begin to try and make this personal you did, by attempting to question my standard of education. :rolleyes:
The classic ploy of the ill-informed.

Can you explain to me what "But a contributer, not just a sneer" means?
I dont undertand the context and doubt this has anything to do with dyslexia

ardmacha · 15-01-2011 05:53PM

Its not an imaginary deficit as PS workers are legally entitled to these accrued liabilities. this entitlment is very real unless im missing something.

As we have seen legally this "entitlement" is at the whim of the government of the day who can reduce it in an arbitrary way whenever it suits them.

But either way it is not a problem and should not be characterised as such.

Yes they pay PRSI as do private sector workers, but can we really say that those payments go towards the OAP when someone that has never paid PRSI receives €10 a week less than someone who has.

Indeed, someone can receive €10 a week less without contributing anything, but this by definition does not include anyone in the public sector as these have all paid their contributions.

macannrb · 15-01-2011 05:54PM

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

I did not begin to try and make this personal you did, by attempting to question my standard of education. :rolleyes:
The classic ploy of the ill-informed.

coming from the person who said

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

I know you are but what am i :rolleyes:

maybe we could stay on topic. or as mentioned before, at least have a point or two in your posts

Gumbo · 15-01-2011 06:04PM

Head The Wall wrote: »

€309 x 12 months x 40 years = €148320. This is what is paid in

1.5 x €38,000 = €57,000 (Tax Free Lump sum)

€148,320 - €57,000 = €91320, this is what's left of the pension pot you have contributed to

€91320 / €19000 (50% pension) = 4.8

So there you go, what you have contributed pays your lump sum and 4.8 years of pension payments.

The state pension is 12k odd so

Your forgetting that I will only need approx 7k per year to make 50% of final salary.

So it's 91,320 / 7000 = 13 years of 50% pension entitlements.
And that's using a simple bank account, not requiring fund management or asset management or any of that PRSA/pension fund crap, just a simple bank account lodgement.

macannrb · 15-01-2011 06:05PM

ardmacha wrote: »

As we have seen legally this "entitlement" is at the whim of the government of the day who can reduce it in an arbitrary way whenever it suits them.

It is still an entitlment, regardless of the level. Obviously if the government can't pay out, the entitlment is worthless.

With a default of a company, this is sometimes the case, if the pension fund is not ring fenced.

If Ireland defaults and can't get access to borrowings (who would lend to a country who defaulted) then the PS entitlement is worthless. So it would be in the interest of PS to reduce public expenditure across all areas to try to avoid a default.

RobbieTheRobber · 15-01-2011 06:14PM

macannrb wrote: »

coming from the person who said

Well done for out of context quoting what was that response in reply to?

maybe we could stay on topic. or as mentioned before, at least have a point or two in your posts

What are your point or two in this post?

Was point one that you can quote out of context to prove anything?

I dont know what point two was, maybe it was that I was right that you were attempting to insult me and my education because you never responded to that point so I must assume that was point two.

Welease · 15-01-2011 06:22PM

ardmacha wrote: »

There isn't a "current" pension liability of €108 billion. These pensions are payable up to 50 years in the future and can be paid from the economy of the future.

It is like saying that there is a €100 billion liability for road maintenance in the next 100 years when in fact roads will be maintained each year from the economy of that year.

There is a genuine issue about increased lifespan and pensions, which is being addressed by an increased retirement age and more may need to be done in this regard. But all of this talk of imaginary funds with imaginary deficits is just timewasting nonsense.

I suggest you and Kceire actually go an educate yourselves on PS pensions.. It's apparent neither of you actually have a clue about what you are posting about..

RobbieTheRobber · 15-01-2011 06:24PM

Welease wrote: »

I suggest you and Kceire actually go an educate yourselves on PS pensions.. It's apparent neither of you actually have a clue about what you are posting about..

Ok so can you disprove what they are saying?

Gumbo · 15-01-2011 06:24PM

Welease wrote: »

I suggest you and Kceire actually go an educate yourselves on PS pensions.. It's apparent neither of you actually have a clue about what you are posting about..

Well then, we re no different to 99% of posters in this thread .....

Head The Wall · 15-01-2011 06:24PM

kceire wrote: »

The state pension is 12k odd so

Your forgetting that I will only need approx 7k per year to make 50% of final salary.

So it's 91,320 / 7000 = 13 years of 50% pension entitlements.
And that's using a simple bank account, not requiring fund management or asset management or any of that PRSA/pension fund crap, just a simple bank account lodgement.

You can't just take the value of the OAP out of it, the fact is your employer pays you your pension from the one pot.

PRSI doesn't just cover pensions but also dole, rent allowance, healthcare etc. The fact is someone that pays no PRSI gets a pension that's €10 less than someone who does, you are trying to come to a conclusion where you equate paying PRSI with knocking €12,000 of your pension.

Think of the person that earns say €500,000 a year and pays a shed load of PRSI on that, they still will only receive the same OAP as someone earning €20,000 a year even though they have contributed a heck of a lot more.

PS pension is not as simplistic as what you get less the OAP i.e 7k. You get 19k as your pension

Its official : public sector pay per hour is 49% higher than private sector

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