Abolish the Seanad?

spider guardian · 09-01-2011 07:42PM

galwayrush wrote: »

In Ireland i could, in the UK i would be jailed......;)

Exactly, look what happened to David Chaytor in England. A lot of people over there said he got off lightly because he was an MP but he was still jailed! Meanwhile Ivor the Engine is still a senator! We've a long way to go before we start bringing some proper accountability to our system, that goes for the banking sector as well. The jailings of bankers in Iceland and the US are old news now.

Jake Rugby Walrus666 · 09-01-2011 07:54PM

AnneElizabeth wrote: »

Someone who knows what they're talking about. Not who's buddies with the Taoiseach. We should get to vote for the ministers.

The Health Minister doesn't diagnose and treat illnesses. Or perform surgery. And neither should he.

What he does do is manage a colossal organisation with tens of thousands of employees, tens of billions of euro of an annual budget with a complex history of industrial relations issues and patient(customer) dissatisfaction.
So you need someone with organisational and business skills to tackle this.
Not a Doctor.
You'll find the best people in the private sector, with proven track records of success. A CV demonstrating competence of dealing with the challenges outlined above.

Our current political system does not facilitate the appointment of such a qualified person unfortunately.

AnneElizabeth · 09-01-2011 08:35PM

Jake Rugby Walrus666 wrote: »

The Health Minister doesn't diagnose and treat illnesses. Or perform surgery. And neither should he.
.

They have to keep up-to-date with Health issues and finding the best way to deal with pandemics, new diseases etc, deciding what type of diseases deserve to be given vaccine funding, what doesn't etc.

Similarly as someone previously said, the finance minister should be an accountant, someone who has real knowledge of dealing with money and how to manage it effectively.

I get what you're saying though, what they need is both
Business/Organizational skills PLUS real knowledge of their field.

Mardy Bum · 09-01-2011 08:43PM

AnneElizabeth wrote: »

They have to keep up-to-date with Health issues and finding the best way to deal with pandemics, new diseases etc, deciding what type of diseases deserve to be given vaccine funding, what doesn't etc.

Similarly as someone previously said, the finance minister should be an accountant, someone who has real knowledge of dealing with money and how to manage it effectively.

I get what you're saying though, what they need is both
Business/Organizational skills PLUS real knowledge of their field.

You may mean economist I hope.

starbelgrade · 09-01-2011 08:45PM

AnneElizabeth wrote: »

They have to keep up-to-date with Health issues and finding the best way to deal with pandemics, new diseases etc, deciding what type of diseases deserve to be given vaccine funding, what doesn't etc.

Largely irrelevant - the likes of the WHO inform nations of pandemics etc & they can seek advice on all other issues from the relevant bodies or experts.

Also, there are so many varying fields of medicine, that it would be impossible for one doctor to keep up to date with all of them.

AnneElizabeth wrote: »

Similarly as someone previously said, the finance minister should be an accountant, someone who has real knowledge of dealing with money and how to manage it effectively.

I get what you're saying though, what they need is both
Business/Organizational skills PLUS real knowledge of their field.

Again, an accountant is good for book keeping. Not exactly a pre-requisite for running a state department.

johnmcdnl · 09-01-2011 09:07PM

well seeing as I didn't go to Trinity or NUI I don't get to vote for it or have any say who gets into it..

it's members are the friends of the rich and the politicians - it doesn't do anything to help the government or to help the country that I can see so I don't see the point in it at all

scrap it - even a system like america's is pointless because if one party controls both houses then everything flies through - if different parties hold different house nothing gets through...

so what's the point in it - we should only have one set of politicians/senators because that's all that's needed...

scrap it all because their a waste of time and resources

SeaFields · 09-01-2011 09:16PM

Jake Rugby Walrus666 wrote: »

Our current political system does not facilitate the appointment of such a qualified person unfortunately.

Very good post but the last line above is incorrect as far as I know.

Although this thread is about the abolishing the Seanad, it is in the Taoiseach's power to appoint people to the Seanad, and then subsequently as Ministers e.g he could appoint Michael O' Leary as a Senator and subsequently appoint him as Minister for Enterprise. I think its two Senators can be appointed to the cabinet - something that should have happen at the start of our crisis.

The current political system created through party politics and arse licking doesnt allow it to happen being a more accurate description unfortunately.

Colmo52 · 09-01-2011 09:20PM

Abolish it. It serves no purpose.

FoxT · 09-01-2011 10:35PM

The Seanad is necessary, but it needs to be reformed.
- retain taoiseach nominees, but reduce.
- Taoiseach nominees MUST NOT be affiliated to any political party
(ie get some real expertise in there)

- universal suffrage, none of this NUI bull****
- reduce the no. of seats.

but, as other posters have said, the real issue is that the Dail needs to be reformed.

1 - cut the no of dail seats by about 30%
2- restructure the dail so that every TD does useful work. The opposition parties have been every bit as bad as the govt parties- they simply oppose everything in sight. I have not seen a single creative opposition idea/proposal in the last 20 years that was better than the govts own.
The way the dail works needs to be changed. The current model where we have 12 or so ministers driving the whole country is wasteful & outdated.

3 - keep the presidency. Very important. The ripcord to call in the supreme court is an insurance policy that every Irish citizen needs. And, in the meantime, they generally do a very good job of promoting ireland . I would drop the IDA & bord failte before I'd drop the presidency....

mikemac · 09-01-2011 10:39PM

Shouldn't be scrapped but should be reformed

I worked for my college degree but hey, an NUI graduate is worth more then me and so gets a vote :rolleyes:

A Taoiseach with a majority and a strong party whip can pass most anything once it's constitutional.
I saw enough threads on boards on the blasphemy law.

The Dail has all the power so how about balancing it with the Presidency and the Seanad

Mrmoe · 09-01-2011 10:40PM

The money saved by abolishing it will more than make up for any loss. The impact the Seanad has is quite insignificant.

Dionysus · 09-01-2011 10:54PM

Seaneh wrote: »

It should be scrapped and the number of TD's should be brought down to about 90.
why a country of 4,470,000 needs 166 members of parliament and a further 60 member of a house not voted for by the public is beyond me...

I agree entirely. On the other hand, are Irish people willing to change the voting system? At the moment PR-STV ensures that every member of Dáil Éireann will sort out potholes and the like, simply because they are watching their backs in the multi-seat constituencies which we currently have as a result of PR-STV. In short, teachta dála are doing local parish pump work, in addition to legislation, which makes their workload more (in theory) than politicians in other national legislatures. In reality, politicians neglect legislation and put attending funerals and fixing those potholes ahead of all else. Shameful. No wonder there are so many loopholes in Irish legislation and such bad legislation generally.

That's the sad reality of the electoral system, a system which has popular support whether we like to admit it or not. It's pernicious, and needs to be changed in order for us to finally have a national parliament of elected legislators, rather than an elected parliament of local pothole fixers and funeral attenders.

parker kent · 09-01-2011 10:58PM

Reform is the only solution. I wonder how many of the people voting to abolish it, actually understand the role that a functioning senate can actually play in a democracy?

Dionysus · 09-01-2011 11:00PM

FoxT wrote: »

The Seanad is necessary, but it needs to be reformed.

Why is it necessary? Denmark, Finland, Norway, Malta, Estonia and New Zealand, among many other countries, can thrive as successful democracies without having a second parliament. Why can't Ireland?

Agricola · 09-01-2011 11:07PM

Abolish now and seek to bring back a reformed version of it in the future, when we can again afford self indulgent luxuries.

Dionysus · 09-01-2011 11:07PM

parker kent wrote: »

Reform is the only solution. I wonder how many of the people voting to abolish it, actually understand the role that a functioning senate can actually play in a democracy?

I do. It 'can' play a role, but so can many other institutional features of the state, much more efficiently for the taxpayer. For instance, the existing ombudsmen could have their powers strengthened and this could act as a valuable check on abuses of power by the taoiseach and cabinet of the day. The committee system could also be particularly effective in checking abuses of power, but it needs radical overhaul. It has huge potential, much more potential than a 'reformed' Seanad has, in my view.

parker kent · 09-01-2011 11:13PM

Dionysus wrote: »

I do. It 'can' play a role, but so can many other institutional features of the state, much more efficiently for the taxpayer. For instance, the existing ombudsmen could have their powers strengthened and this could act as a valuable check on abuses of power by the taoiseach and cabinet of the day. The committee system could also be particularly effective in checking abuses of power, but it needs radical overhaul. It has huge potential, much more potential than a 'reformed' Seanad has, in my view.

Nevertheless, the relatively minor savings made abolishing the Seanad is still a cheap attempt at populist politics by the various parties. A pound of flesh springs to mind. You may understand the situation, but there are many who don't and are just joining the populist movement.

Of course there are other areas that need improvement. But that should not come at the cost of the Seanad. Something that could be reformed at a small enough cost.

mikemac · 10-01-2011 12:58AM

Why is an NUI graduate entitled to a vote and other degree holders are not?
This is a republic, all citizens being equal and all that.

I'd like to see reform

FoxT · 15-01-2011 12:48AM

I am married to an NUI graduate & earn about 2 times what she does. I can't vote in the seanad elections but I am happy :rolleyes:

NUI is a failure. UL FTW! ( and I am not, unfortunately a graduate of UL....)

vintac34 · 15-01-2011 01:21AM

Scrap it NOW!!
Divert the savings towards reopening some of the closed hospial wards and getting some of our sick people off hospital trollies.

RussellTuring · 15-01-2011 02:12AM

Off topic, but the healthcare system should be run by those who actually know it inside-out, ie the staff. Not a single career politician.

On topic, the Seanad my be highly inefficient but so are the other branches of government. Scrap them all and start over.

Abolish the Seanad?

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