Abolish the Seanad?

grizzly

According to this poll, 60% want it abolished. I was wondering how boards matched this result.

Archeron

I want to hear Sean Connery reading out this thread title.

galwayrush

Aww, no rewards for a few failed and unelectable politicans......:D

Cheap Thrills!

We can use this to scrape it.

Badgermonkey

I'd like it reformed -

Vouched transparent and reduced expenses

End appointing those who've been rejected in General Elections

End NUI graduate system

Insist Donie Cassidy loses the wig

spider guardian

Scrap it, it's little more than an expensive talking shop. All it's good for is 'jobs for the boys'.

bungler

Scrapped, bunch of useless of waffeling tarts

Red Alert

First of all, it should be decided if an "upper house" is necessary, and what its function should be. If it's decided that it has a job to do, then set it up to meet the requirements. I personally think it should go, and the Dail should pick up the slack. The committees should also be reviewed too, a job for another thread.

paky

the presidency should be abolished, seanad reformed perhaps

Red Alert

I would also be in favour of abolishing the presidency too.

starbelgrade

Populist nonsense.

It could do with reform, but the notion of abolishing it is just a smokescreen used by the likes of Fine Gael to try & distract us from what should really be happening - which is to reduce the number of TDs in the Dail.

I see no point in getting rid of the Presidency either. Not every single decision that is made politically these days should be about money. That's a dangerous way to decide things.

starbelgrade

Why are the poll results hidden?

If I had known that this was a secret ballot, I wouldn't have voted at all.

grizzly

starbelgrade wrote: »

Why are the poll results hidden?

If I had known that this was a secret ballot, I wouldn't have voted at all.

My mistake, I thought hidden meant the poster IDs didn't show under the results.

Can a mod please edit?

FYI it's currently;
Scrap 52 71.23%
Reform 20 27.40%
as is 1 1.37%

Iwasfrozen

Exactly, open the poll results.

Seaneh

It should be scrapped and the number of TD's should be brought down to about 90.
why a country of 4,470,000 needs 166 members of parliament and a further 60 member of a house not voted for by the public is beyond me...

Jake Rugby Walrus666

grizzly wrote: »

My mistake, I thought hidden meant the poster IDs didn't show under the results.

Can a mod please edit?

FYI it's currently;
Scrap: 28 75.68%
reform:9 24.32%
As is:0 0%

....and you want to run the country. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

AnneElizabeth

Abolish it, a long with the Presidency and get qualified people to be our ministers, e.g. a qualified doctor should be Minister for Health etc.
Also abolish Irish language funding while we're at it. Waste of money imo.

grizzly

Jake Rugby Walrus666 wrote: »

....and you want to run the country. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Yes, yes I do Jake Rugby Walrus666, can I count on your vote?

Jake Rugby Walrus666

AnneElizabeth wrote: »

a qualified doctor should be Minister for Health

Somebody with business skills should be Minister for Health

Jake Rugby Walrus666

grizzly wrote: »

Yes, yes I do Jake Rugby Walrus666, can I count on your vote?

I'll be carefully watching how you resolve the Poll cluster ****....you might get my vote. Alternatively you can bribe me.

starbelgrade

AnneElizabeth wrote: »

get qualified people to be our ministers, e.g. a qualified doctor should be Minister for Health etc.

I really don't see why a Minister for Health should have to be a qualified doctor. That makes no sense at all.

sollar

I would like to see it reformed into something useful but i'd have no faith in our lot getting it right so just scrap it.

Son Of A Vidic

Not only should the Seanad be abolished but the Dáil should also have a significant cull. There are roughly 10.48 sitting MP's per million population in the British parliament. The Dáil has 37.13 sitting TD's per million population. So we have 3.54 times the level of political representation than our neighbour has. Why is this so? If we reduced this ridiculous number say to UK levels, then we would have 46 TD's in the Dáil. Puts things in perspective doesn't it? I think 55 TD's would be plenty and let's also do away with this junior minister bullsh1t.

Ali Babba

Jake Rugby Walrus666 wrote: »

Somebody with business skills should be Minister for Health

All ministers should be suitably qualified, in fact they should have a degree in politics before they're allowed practice as ministers in the first place and like other posters have said, health minister should be a doctor, finance minister should be an accountant etc.

The whole system in this country should be scrapped anyway it's a total mess that will never be solved unless there's a revolution. I heard a story the other day where some person has a job stamping pet pass ports and earns around 130k euros a year!!! When you hear stories like this it gives me very little hope for the future of the country.

AnneElizabeth

starbelgrade wrote: »

I really don't see why a Minister for Health should have to be a qualified doctor. That makes no sense at all.

Someone who knows what they're talking about. Not who's buddies with the Taoiseach. We should get to vote for the ministers.

Riddle101

No need to abolish the Seanad altogether, just reform it. Although that's pretty much my view on everything really. Reform the seanad, reform the health care system, reform the education system. But it's just my general opinion.

galwayrush

Have to admit though, if someone in the next Government wants to give me a nominated Senators job, i'll change my mind and will be all for it.
I could live an amazing life of luxury on the expenses alone.;)

Oh_Noes

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

So we have 3.54 times the level of political representation than our neighbour has. Why is this so?

Why is the UK always quoted as an example of why we should change something here? Because it's our nearest neighbor so somehow we should replicate it? Surely there are countries in much better cultural/financial shape for us to look to as an example.

Abolishing the Seanad would most likely leave the whole country in a legal mess and require the whole constitution to be rewritten.

It should be completely reformed so that it's not just a puppet of mainstream political parties and a talking shop for politicians that failed to be elected to the Dail.

spider guardian

galwayrush wrote: »

Have to admit though, if someone in the next Government wants to give me a nominated Senators job, i'll change my mind and will be all for it.
I could live an amazing life of luxurt on the expenses alone.;)

you could claim some nice expenses living in galway, even if you move somewhere else!

Redr

I love it - let's 'scrape' the Seanad! I was on a visit to the Dail a couple of years ago and we wandered into the Seanad. Dossers! The boyo's were reading the paper, having whispered chats, peering back to see if anyone from their neck of the woods was a visitor observing proceedings, while earning €60,000 plus expenses per year. They are answerable to no-one.

Remember - Eoghan Harris became Senator after his sycophantic appearance on the Late Late Show in 2007 in which he spewed forth unbelieveably vomitous tosh about one Bertie Ahern.

And Bertie said ... Thou Shalt Be Senator

Robert Mugabe, Pol Pot, Idi Amin (be they dead or alive) are shivering with admiration.

That's Irish Democracy for ya!

galwayrush

spider guardian wrote: »

you could claim some nice expenses living in galway, even if you move somewhere else!

In Ireland i could, in the UK i would be jailed......;)

spider guardian

galwayrush wrote: »

In Ireland i could, in the UK i would be jailed......;)

Exactly, look what happened to David Chaytor in England. A lot of people over there said he got off lightly because he was an MP but he was still jailed! Meanwhile Ivor the Engine is still a senator! We've a long way to go before we start bringing some proper accountability to our system, that goes for the banking sector as well. The jailings of bankers in Iceland and the US are old news now.

Jake Rugby Walrus666

AnneElizabeth wrote: »

Someone who knows what they're talking about. Not who's buddies with the Taoiseach. We should get to vote for the ministers.

The Health Minister doesn't diagnose and treat illnesses. Or perform surgery. And neither should he.

What he does do is manage a colossal organisation with tens of thousands of employees, tens of billions of euro of an annual budget with a complex history of industrial relations issues and patient(customer) dissatisfaction.
So you need someone with organisational and business skills to tackle this.
Not a Doctor.
You'll find the best people in the private sector, with proven track records of success. A CV demonstrating competence of dealing with the challenges outlined above.

Our current political system does not facilitate the appointment of such a qualified person unfortunately.

AnneElizabeth

Jake Rugby Walrus666 wrote: »

The Health Minister doesn't diagnose and treat illnesses. Or perform surgery. And neither should he.
.

They have to keep up-to-date with Health issues and finding the best way to deal with pandemics, new diseases etc, deciding what type of diseases deserve to be given vaccine funding, what doesn't etc.

Similarly as someone previously said, the finance minister should be an accountant, someone who has real knowledge of dealing with money and how to manage it effectively.

I get what you're saying though, what they need is both
Business/Organizational skills PLUS real knowledge of their field.

Mardy Bum

AnneElizabeth wrote: »

They have to keep up-to-date with Health issues and finding the best way to deal with pandemics, new diseases etc, deciding what type of diseases deserve to be given vaccine funding, what doesn't etc.

Similarly as someone previously said, the finance minister should be an accountant, someone who has real knowledge of dealing with money and how to manage it effectively.

I get what you're saying though, what they need is both
Business/Organizational skills PLUS real knowledge of their field.

You may mean economist I hope.

starbelgrade

AnneElizabeth wrote: »

They have to keep up-to-date with Health issues and finding the best way to deal with pandemics, new diseases etc, deciding what type of diseases deserve to be given vaccine funding, what doesn't etc.

Largely irrelevant - the likes of the WHO inform nations of pandemics etc & they can seek advice on all other issues from the relevant bodies or experts.

Also, there are so many varying fields of medicine, that it would be impossible for one doctor to keep up to date with all of them.

AnneElizabeth wrote: »

Similarly as someone previously said, the finance minister should be an accountant, someone who has real knowledge of dealing with money and how to manage it effectively.

I get what you're saying though, what they need is both
Business/Organizational skills PLUS real knowledge of their field.

Again, an accountant is good for book keeping. Not exactly a pre-requisite for running a state department.

johnmcdnl

well seeing as I didn't go to Trinity or NUI I don't get to vote for it or have any say who gets into it..

it's members are the friends of the rich and the politicians - it doesn't do anything to help the government or to help the country that I can see so I don't see the point in it at all

scrap it - even a system like america's is pointless because if one party controls both houses then everything flies through - if different parties hold different house nothing gets through...

so what's the point in it - we should only have one set of politicians/senators because that's all that's needed...

scrap it all because their a waste of time and resources

SeaFields

Jake Rugby Walrus666 wrote: »

Our current political system does not facilitate the appointment of such a qualified person unfortunately.

Very good post but the last line above is incorrect as far as I know.

Although this thread is about the abolishing the Seanad, it is in the Taoiseach's power to appoint people to the Seanad, and then subsequently as Ministers e.g he could appoint Michael O' Leary as a Senator and subsequently appoint him as Minister for Enterprise. I think its two Senators can be appointed to the cabinet - something that should have happen at the start of our crisis.

The current political system created through party politics and arse licking doesnt allow it to happen being a more accurate description unfortunately.

Colmo52

Abolish it. It serves no purpose.

FoxT

The Seanad is necessary, but it needs to be reformed.
- retain taoiseach nominees, but reduce.
- Taoiseach nominees MUST NOT be affiliated to any political party
(ie get some real expertise in there)

- universal suffrage, none of this NUI bull****
- reduce the no. of seats.

but, as other posters have said, the real issue is that the Dail needs to be reformed.

1 - cut the no of dail seats by about 30%
2- restructure the dail so that every TD does useful work. The opposition parties have been every bit as bad as the govt parties- they simply oppose everything in sight. I have not seen a single creative opposition idea/proposal in the last 20 years that was better than the govts own.
The way the dail works needs to be changed. The current model where we have 12 or so ministers driving the whole country is wasteful & outdated.

3 - keep the presidency. Very important. The ripcord to call in the supreme court is an insurance policy that every Irish citizen needs. And, in the meantime, they generally do a very good job of promoting ireland . I would drop the IDA & bord failte before I'd drop the presidency....

mikemac

Shouldn't be scrapped but should be reformed

I worked for my college degree but hey, an NUI graduate is worth more then me and so gets a vote :rolleyes:

A Taoiseach with a majority and a strong party whip can pass most anything once it's constitutional.
I saw enough threads on boards on the blasphemy law.

The Dail has all the power so how about balancing it with the Presidency and the Seanad

Mrmoe

The money saved by abolishing it will more than make up for any loss. The impact the Seanad has is quite insignificant.

Dionysus

Seaneh wrote: »

It should be scrapped and the number of TD's should be brought down to about 90.
why a country of 4,470,000 needs 166 members of parliament and a further 60 member of a house not voted for by the public is beyond me...

I agree entirely. On the other hand, are Irish people willing to change the voting system? At the moment PR-STV ensures that every member of Dáil Éireann will sort out potholes and the like, simply because they are watching their backs in the multi-seat constituencies which we currently have as a result of PR-STV. In short, teachta dála are doing local parish pump work, in addition to legislation, which makes their workload more (in theory) than politicians in other national legislatures. In reality, politicians neglect legislation and put attending funerals and fixing those potholes ahead of all else. Shameful. No wonder there are so many loopholes in Irish legislation and such bad legislation generally.


That's the sad reality of the electoral system, a system which has popular support whether we like to admit it or not. It's pernicious, and needs to be changed in order for us to finally have a national parliament of elected legislators, rather than an elected parliament of local pothole fixers and funeral attenders.

parker kent

Reform is the only solution. I wonder how many of the people voting to abolish it, actually understand the role that a functioning senate can actually play in a democracy?

Dionysus

FoxT wrote: »

The Seanad is necessary, but it needs to be reformed.

Why is it necessary? Denmark, Finland, Norway, Malta, Estonia and New Zealand, among many other countries, can thrive as successful democracies without having a second parliament. Why can't Ireland?

Agricola

Abolish now and seek to bring back a reformed version of it in the future, when we can again afford self indulgent luxuries.

Dionysus

parker kent wrote: »

Reform is the only solution. I wonder how many of the people voting to abolish it, actually understand the role that a functioning senate can actually play in a democracy?

I do. It 'can' play a role, but so can many other institutional features of the state, much more efficiently for the taxpayer. For instance, the existing ombudsmen could have their powers strengthened and this could act as a valuable check on abuses of power by the taoiseach and cabinet of the day. The committee system could also be particularly effective in checking abuses of power, but it needs radical overhaul. It has huge potential, much more potential than a 'reformed' Seanad has, in my view.

parker kent

Dionysus wrote: »

I do. It 'can' play a role, but so can many other institutional features of the state, much more efficiently for the taxpayer. For instance, the existing ombudsmen could have their powers strengthened and this could act as a valuable check on abuses of power by the taoiseach and cabinet of the day. The committee system could also be particularly effective in checking abuses of power, but it needs radical overhaul. It has huge potential, much more potential than a 'reformed' Seanad has, in my view.

Nevertheless, the relatively minor savings made abolishing the Seanad is still a cheap attempt at populist politics by the various parties. A pound of flesh springs to mind. You may understand the situation, but there are many who don't and are just joining the populist movement.

Of course there are other areas that need improvement. But that should not come at the cost of the Seanad. Something that could be reformed at a small enough cost.

mikemac

Why is an NUI graduate entitled to a vote and other degree holders are not?
This is a republic, all citizens being equal and all that.

I'd like to see reform

FoxT

I am married to an NUI graduate & earn about 2 times what she does. I can't vote in the seanad elections but I am happy :rolleyes:

NUI is a failure. UL FTW! ( and I am not, unfortunately a graduate of UL....)

vintac34

Scrap it NOW!!
Divert the savings towards reopening some of the closed hospial wards and getting some of our sick people off hospital trollies.