Its official : public sector pay per hour is 49% higher than private sector

EF wrote: »

I can't understand the frenzy surrounding cutting "core public pay". The cost to the exchequer of public sector pay has gone down significantly following the last budget with the reduction of tax bands and credits. It has had a similar impact as a paycut! The cost of public sector pay will also continue to fall over the lifetime of the CPA

Public pay needs to be cut. What else can balance the books? Capital expenditure can be cut only so much. Welfare also needs to be cut. look at the coloured graphs (nice and simple)

The DOF forecasts public expediture to go up, not down.

How long to you think Ireland can keep losing money in the public coffers?

Or maybe the money pit never runs out?

EF wrote: »

I can't understand the frenzy surrounding cutting "core public pay". The cost to the exchequer of public sector pay has gone down significantly following the last budget with the reduction of tax bands and credits. It has had a similar impact as a paycut! The cost of public sector pay will also continue to fall over the lifetime of the CPA

and its not simular to a paycut..If core ps pay is cut it means less tax has be gotten to pay..Its simple we cannot keep the gravy train going

kceire wrote: »

what Gravy train? (another boards invented word)
PS pay bill has decreased in 2009, 2010 and will decrease in 2011 again.....

Will ye come up out of it...

Look the proof is in the pudding...hows about if the IMF and next gov leave the CPA in tact then you were right if the CPA is torn up by the end of the year then I along with the majority of the population are right...No point arguing with people who it will effect as they will have an emotional "but I cannot afford another cut" and I am sorry it is going to come to this but we cannot afford P.S core pay..This natural wastage is only putting the expense onto pensions or the dole...the core pay needs to be tackled.

kceire wrote: »

what Gravy train? (another boards invented word)
PS pay bill has decreased in 2009, 2010 and will decrease in 2011 again.....

what about the Private Sector Peppered Sauce Train?
GP prices up
home insurance up
car insurance up
fuel up
mortgages up
groceries are fairly level but i have noticed milk has dropped a bit as theres more brands available (premier daries/Avonmore still the same or up)

I agree but everyone I believe at present is trying to get every last cent they can ...look at Biffo if he was the leader of any other country there would be blood in the street with some of the crap he has got away with ..FF clinging on ...and to the p.s I dont blame you clinging on to your wage..I am just saying the tax payer can no longer afford it.. So tell me out of the group above ...which does my tax pay for???? Fact is you have a choice with all of the above...The gov are talking about bringing in docs from all over the gaff to bring down GPprices...Car insurance have a look at 123.ie I got a quote of 60 Euros cheaper this year ...Cant say anything about fuel yeat its up...Mort up aswell but sure no one is foolish enough to buy a house at present...

Groceries I shop in aldi/lidl very low prices...

kceire wrote: »

but the cuts have only been made a month ago, heck 90% of PS staff havent received a pay cheque yet (mines due this week) so a current intake of tax etc is probably not available yet.

how can we say that the cuts have no effect on the deficit so early on in the year?

I know but my worry is that people who are/were contributing to the tax take are leaving as they see 4/5 years more of misery and we will be back to square one..I am not saying for a moment the ps wage takes the hit alone...pensions need to be slashed as does the dole as does further increases in tax...everyone needs to share this pain

anyway I am off for a week so am trying not to go onto boards as it gets more depressing..happy new year to all and to the p.s sorry for being a bit overly heavy but I stand by what I say and as I say its nothing presonal

EF wrote: »

Maybe the answer lies elsewhere? Public sector pay as a net figure has fallen significantly in the past 3 years, which has had a direct knock on reduction in income tax receipts.

But it still needs to fall faster then what is happening.The national debt has grown and the amount of interest the government has to pay on this debt is eventually going to kill off the nations finances if not stopped.

The reality is that the overall wage is dropping largely because of the slow reduction of staff, be it naturally or though voluntary redundancies. This process is too slow and we can only borrow from the IMF for so long.

And even if we could borrow forever then we would have a crippling interest bill.

EF wrote: »

As long as the savings made are being ploughed into banks which hoard money rather than lend to small businesses, we will not have growth in the domestic economy. Without the foreign companies here we would be really in deep trouble, but if our domestic economy which is DEAD, could be stimulated it would be of great help. Cutting pay will not help this.

The banks is not the issue. Current expenditure has been far higher then tax income for the country for years now. the amount put into the banks(70bn), is roughly 4 times the size of the current deficit (18bn), so without the banks we would be in the same situation in 4 years time.

Current expenditure has to come down, and the long the PS think it can't then the more likely we are to default.

The odds of us defaulting are about 35%. Only a handful of countries are higher then us. Iraq is less likely to default. And its because their country is not spiraling out of control!

EDIT: Its been publicly advised that we can't go on like this, and default is now been advised by a Citi Group economist
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2011/0111/1224287235799.html

macannrb wrote: »

Current expenditure has to come down, and the long the PS think it can't then the more likely we are to default.

??? If you have any evidence that the PS think current expenditure doesn't need to fall i would be delighted to see it. You would need to eliminate the entire public sector to close the current deficit so something else is going to have to contribute to this difficult problem.

Riskymove wrote: »

I dont see anyone denying this




having to come up with 70bn in one go is harder than over 4 or 5 years, we would have had that 4 or 5 years to close the deficit

really? the IMF deal provided a 86bn facility overnight.

Riskymove wrote: »

the Banks have definitely made a major impact on our ability to sort out finances, pretending they are not an issue is disingenuous.

I dont see anyone denying this, but I do think its disingenuous to think that the difference year after year in current income and expenditure, and down playing it is far more dangerous as it continuing each year, as opposed to once off injections. especially as the loss next year is forecast at 22bn, not the 18bn we had in 2010.

Riskymove wrote: »

indeed, many are of the belief that if the banks are sorted that confidence will begin to grow again in Ireland resulting in growth

really? real economic growth in Ireland does not look likely for a good few years and even then it will be minimal at best. We are looking at a decade of stagnancy.

Riskymove wrote: »

expenditure has been reduced and continues to be reduced, but there are more things being spent on than just the PS paybill

Expenditure has been reduced but how? Dr. Constantin Gurdgiev sums it up on his blog;

DofF data shows that overall spending savings this year relative to 2009 were €729mln, consisting of a cut of €990mln on capital spending side and an overspend of €261mln on current spending side. This, by any possible means, does not constitute any real 'tight control' over public spending

Riskymove wrote: »

the current 4 year plan sees a further €6bn in cuts and that's likely to include some further reductions in the PS pay bill

How exactly? and will it really be enough?

1bn here and 1 bn there is not exactly enough when you compare it to 90bn on the national debt clock.

PS pay and bill was
17.097Bn in 2008
16.471Bn in 2009
15.092Bn in 2010

on average a billion a year. The interest this year on the national debt is 4 billion. Its forecast as 5bn. the year after that, a good deal more. Does tha mean the PS pay bill will have to come down by the same amount each year?

Get real people, the government finances are going down the drain and welfare and public sector pay are two of the main culprits of the loss each year. Its just unsustainable.

macannrb wrote: »

really? the IMF deal provided a 86bn facility overnight.

I meant in the context of sorting out our own finances

I dont see anyone denying this, but I do think its disingenuous to think that the difference year after year in current income and expenditure is far more dangerous. especially as the loss next year is forecast at 22bn, not the 18bn we had in 2010.

again I dont see anyone here saying the deficit does not have to be dealt with

Expenditure has been reduced but how? Dr. Constantin Gurdgiev sums it up on his blog;

PS pay bill is going down, if spending is up its due to other areas

How exactly? and will it really be enough?

1bn here and 1 bn there is not exactly enough when you compare it to 90bn on the national debt clock.

in the context of national debt, nothing could be done to eliminate it or severely reduce it by reducing ps pay bill

the absolute most the PS bill could be reduced to, in any rational consideration, is around €10bn or so, and that would involve a lot of re-organisation and reduction in services, nothing that could be achieved in the short-term

thats is only €5bn off the deficit

my point is that people need to focus on what really needs to be tackled at present in order to close the deficit..

Get real people, the government finances are going down the drain and welfare and public sector pay are two of the main culprits of the loss each year. Its just unsustainable.

so we agree with your general points and are told 'to get real'??? do you actually read what is said to you?

do you see many PS posters disagreeing that expenditure needs to continue to reduce?

Riskymove wrote: »

PS pay bill is going down, if spending is up its due to other areas

Then its not going down fast enough. And other areas need to be trimmed fast too

Riskymove wrote: »

in the context of national debt, nothing could be done to eliminate it or severely reduce it by reducing ps pay bill

the absolute most the PS bill could be reduced to, in any rational consideration, is around €10bn or so, and that would involve a lot of re-organisation and reduction in services, nothing that could be achieved in the short-term

If a company is going down the drain, they lay off people left right and centre. The national finances have gone down the drain, so the natural reaction would be to cut all areas until things get back to a sustainable level. Needless to say, it has to be done quickly. But the Croke agreement means this is not possible.

Riskymove wrote: »

so we agree with your general points and are told 'to get real'??? do you actually read what is said to you?

If the deficit is going up to 24bn next year, then slice 10bn of pay and 10bn of welfare, and another 5bn of capital expenditure/contracts etc then hey presto will restore order to the government finances. Yep i stand by my point of getting real. I don't think you really look at the numbers i've been referencing.

Riskymove wrote: »

do you see many PS posters disagreeing that expenditure needs to continue to reduce?

No but i do see plenty talking about changing things at a glacial pace/protecting the croke park agreement

Riskymove wrote: »

hey presto:rolleyes: that's about right or perhaps abrekedabra

credibility out the window unfortunately, if anyone could rationally think that cutting €25bn out of expenditure in one go was the correct action

Credibility out the window for suggesting how spend the same amount that we take in? Thats the getting real i was talking about

I think we have let the government finances plumet enough with the slow pace of public reform. It really is time for something radical here before we have to default and have no access to public funding.

But the reality is that you condem the mear suggestion of trying to fix the finances without presenting a realistic effort for balancing the books.