The Pub trade is dying - Minimum price for Alcohol?

HellFireClub · 04-01-2011 02:54AM

Naikon wrote: »

It's the internet after all. I become defensive when people talk crap about pubs in general without the facts to back up their assertions. Yes, there are plenty of rogue pubs out there overcharging people, but do you think it's fair to apply this blanket logic to every single pub out there? Misinformation is not good.

Yet again the attitude from you is that the customer is deluded or speading misinformation, when the views spoken are not fully in communion with your own, it's this sense of the publican always being right and infallible when all the evidence is pointing to the general business model being completely flawed.

It isn't enough to just lower prices at this stage, that needs to be done but also with a campaign that gets publicans to wake up to the fact that they need to up their game big time with respect to the general standards of customer service out there that I've seen, and also, if you are going to lower prices, you need to publicise it and run a campaign so that people are aware of it...

Keep the price of the pint WELL under 3 quid, give your staff a crash course in basic manners and how to meet and greet customers, make sure the jacks are clean, make sure you don't have two arseh*les on the front door and as for Sky, there are as many people on here asking for no TV's to be on as there would probably be people looking for a match.

ArtSmart · 04-01-2011 02:56AM

ardinn wrote: »

The VFI has done this and it has been stated by a poster earlier - the result being Sky said they have more subscribers in birmingham than ireland and to sod off.

There is no competitor option. Sky has all the power.

wow, interesting stuff. i know Murdock plays hardball and took on bigger countries than ireland so you may be right there.
nonetheless, bringing conversation back into pub life will win out - in my personal belief. i think sky TV (as opposed to a bit of rte at the bar) has destroyed pubs tbh.

HellFireClub · 04-01-2011 02:59AM

Naikon wrote: »

I thought you just told me that as a consumer, you don't care about such issues. Seriously, you can't expect pubs to be supplied by domestic retailers like Tesco. It's just not a viable practice. End of.
Commercial competition is largely seperated into domestic and commercial sectors after all. I suppose Musgrave should let regular tesco shoppers there each week, even though it's not for domestic use?

It is a viable practice, what isn't viable is what you are trying to sell that product for at retail to me in a pub! Charge me 2 Euro something for it, I'd happily give you my business, buy you're not even at the races trying to get a fiver out of me for it! And while price is the primary matter here, it isn't the only one, you'd also need to sort out sh*t customer service, grumpy bar staff, p*ssy jacks as well, to get me back into being a regular pub drinker, and as it happens, I'm off the booze for the next few months anyway so it's all just academic really to me at the mo!

ardinn · 04-01-2011 03:00AM

HellFireClub wrote: »

Keep the price of the pint WELL under 3 quid,

and watch your doors close - thats impossible and business suicide its ok for maybe one night to get exposure but it cannot be sustained by any self-employed publican. end of.

HellFireClub wrote: »

give your staff a crash course in basic manners and how to meet and greet customers,

No excuse for bad manners - have you reported any that you have come across? - I have dismissed 2 people in the last year for interaction infractions, but unless you make it known to managers/owners there is nothing they can do! but you are dead right

HellFireClub wrote: »

and as for Sky, there are as many people on here asking for no TV's to be on as there would probably be people looking for a match.

So that leave you in exactly the same situation!!

ArtSmart · 04-01-2011 03:03AM

the more i think bout it the more i think that those pubs which offer quality of atmosphere, comfort, service, or whatever the mkt segment wants will survive. in truth, same as any business.

i do reckon the govt vat take is prob higher than most other businesses and that maybe an issue as pubs morph into something different, but whatever else, unless the country collapses altogether into the 1940's, consumer habits have and will change

ardinn · 04-01-2011 03:04AM

ArtSmart wrote: »

wow, interesting stuff. i know Murdock plays hardball and took on bigger countries than ireland so you may be right there.
nonetheless, bringing conversation back into pub life will win out - in my personal belief. i think sky TV (as opposed to a bit of rte at the bar) has destroyed pubs tbh.

Also sky has even killed off setanta which would have given a little something to grasp at but they have virtually nothing now either - I think they are actually showing episodes of top gear now.

oppenheimer1 · 04-01-2011 03:07AM

ardinn wrote: »

and watch your doors close - thats impossible and business suicide its ok for maybe one night to get exposure but it cannot be sustained by any self-employed publican. end of.

No excuse for bad manners - have you reported any that you have come across? - I have dismissed 2 people in the last year for interaction infractions, but unless you make it known to managers/owners there is nothing they can do! but you are dead right

So that leave you in exactly the same situation!!

A pretty big bar in Central Dublin sells cans 4 cans of Bavaria for €8 and has been doing it for years. Must be working for them.

I think you can get Sky Italia here with a little bit of effort. The sub is meant to be far more reasonable, or so I've heard.

starbelgrade · 04-01-2011 03:09AM

Dunno why I bothered with my last post.

HellFireClub · 04-01-2011 03:12AM

ardinn wrote: »

and watch your doors close - thats impossible and business suicide its ok for maybe one night to get exposure but it cannot be sustained by any self-employed publican. end of.

People said the same thing to Michael O' Leary when he said he was going to fly people between two European airports for a Euro! Michael O' Leary doesn't fly anyone anywhere for a Euro, but he fills planes by convincing people that he will give them a flight for that price, it's all about getting people's bums on seats, being ruthless with the costs and then upselling all sorts of stuff to them once their bum is in the seat!

ardinn wrote: »

No excuse for bad manners - have you reported any that you have come across? - I have dismissed 2 people in the last year for interaction infractions, but unless you make it known to managers/owners there is nothing they can do! but you are dead right

I mentioned before there, I don't do arguments or constructive feedback to managers, I just vote with my feet. To be honest, I've largely given up on the pub scene, I've never found a pub that ticked all the boxes, none of them can tick the price box for me, and I've only come across one or two that really made an effort to tick the customer service box for me. I'll accept that anyone can have a bad day but what I'm talking about here is for weeks on end, grumpy barmen who clearly hate their jobs throwing your change down on the bar in front of you with a grunt, I don't even expect a loungegirl to be chatty to me 'cos I'd feel a little bit like an early middle aged old perv if I got into conversation with her and didn't know her but I expect a barman to know what I drink, to know my name and to show me a tiny bit of courtesy, doesn't happen where I'm from and the pub is empty on all weekdays, only gets decent trade on weekends because they get in decent bands who people turn up to see.

ardinn · 04-01-2011 03:14AM

starbelgrade wrote: »

Dunno why I bothered with my last post.

Oh be patient!!

starbelgrade · 04-01-2011 03:16AM

ardinn wrote: »

Oh be patient!!

That's what my doctor said when I tried to stick my finger up his bum.

Naikon · 04-01-2011 03:18AM

HellFireClub wrote: »

People said the same thing to Michael O' Leary when he said he was going to fly people between two European airports for a Euro! Michael O' Leary doesn't fly anyone anywhere for a Euro, but he fills planes by convincing people that he will give them a flight for that price, it's all about getting people's bums on seats, being ruthless with the costs and then upselling all sorts of stuff to them once their bum is in the seat!

I mentioned before there, I don't do arguments or constructive feedback to managers, I just vote with my feet. To be honest, I've largely given up on the pub scene, I've never found a pub that ticked all the boxes, none of them can tick the price box for me, and I've only come across one or two that really made an effort to tick the customer service box for me. I'll accept that anyone can have a bad day but what I'm talking about here is for weeks on end, grumpy barmen who clearly hate their jobs throwing your change down on the bar in front of you with a grunt, I don't even expect a loungegirl to be chatty to me 'cos I'd feel a little bit like an early middle aged old perv if I got into conversation with her and didn't know her but I expect a barman to know what I drink, to know my name and to show me a tiny bit of courtesy, doesn't happen where I'm from and the pub is empty on all weekdays, only gets decent trade on weekends because they get in decent bands who people turn up to see.

I am all for manners, and I do not tolerate or condone general grumpiness/outright abuse. Of course, exceptions can be made for people who either refuse to pay after ordering and drinking the said products, or for verbally abusing the staff. I have seen at least one instance in multiple establishments. Besides, O leary is just a smart ruthless money making tactician. People buy into his practices. He isn't breaking the law, so why complain? Works for him. If you think his practices are bad, you need to look into the likes of Disney, Coca-cola or Microsoft.

A company that only breaks even, is not a viable company.

Degag · 04-01-2011 03:18AM

zerks wrote: »

That's a lot of pints to lose out on.The next week ESPN was on the TV.My local shows a lot of sport and a variety of it,the staff are fans so will accomodate any request be it soccer,rugby or the gee gees.It's also a great pub for the craic and live music.It's thriving while pubs around it are closing as the guys running it know their customer and how to treat them unlike the 'bars' where unpleasant staff sell you overpriced slop.

ESPN along with Sky Sports 2 and 4 cost about 1000 extra a year compared to to next package. Net Profit wise - that's alot of pints.

HellFireClub wrote: »

First of all I'm a business owner myself. If I have a supplier who is not giving me the price I need to sell and be competitive, I change supplier!

The EU is very big OPEN market now and there is nothing that I can see that would stop you as an owner of two outlets, maybe hooking up with a few of your fellow publicans, to take Diageo out of your supply chain and use our membership of the EU to go abroad and try to source a quality brewer who can supply you the same volume, of comparable quality for a much better price. This will allow you to drop your retail prices and still maintain a respectable margin.

Some of what you could do isn't even price related, what do you do to manage your customer retention???

How about giving your regulars a Crimbo pint on the house, something that is NEVER done in Dublin now, I got a Crimbo pint off my local and he has a customer in me for carvery and the odd drink for the next year based on that gesture alone!

Another big one for publicans is putting one or two idiots on the door with an attitude problem who have no notion as to how to welcome people into a business, instead, looking them up and down at the door and interrogating them, trying to make a potential customer almost feel grateful for getting into a pub, these are sober people who just want to go out for a pint who might not be big drinkers. This alone has been the cause of me avoiding one pub in my locality for years and it's well known that the folks on the door have been the ruination of the pub.

Same for barstaff, grunting at you and having a barely hidden dislike of their job, how do you manage staff performance and staff improvement???

First of all... Would distribution costs be a prehibitionary factor in saying that you can source drink from the EU? Secondly, all thev major brands are actually produced in Ireland - I don't think it's actually the price of drink thats the problem, it's the taxes, overheads, wages and pure greed (in some but not all cases) that is the problem.

I'm amazed that no pubs in Dublin give out Christmas drinks for locals. Is this really the case? In my local, regulars are often given a free night - that could be 10 pints in some cases.

Bouncers, agreed, I hate it having to walk into a pub being given the eye over, Barstaff, yeah there are some cúnts - but they have a very hard job to do, believe it or not.

Biggins wrote: »

If your a bar owner, I acknowledge that your up against it big time but as much as you as Diageo is lobbying, there are also not doing themselves any favours either.

A very good friend of mine leased out a bar in Slane Co Meath. Now because he was just leasing the property at most Diageo would allow him in credit, was 30 days.
So if he had delivered 20/30 barrels (each one holding about 70/80 pints approx) the he was expected within 30 days to up and cover the cost of the entire lot - even if he hadn't actually managed to pass on their product via incoming customers.
Now he was told that if he owned the bar, it would have been a whole different ball game (and I can understand where and why Diageo is coming from in this respect), he would have greater longer terms with the company.

My point in that Diageo and its like elsewhere, need also to play ball more so, to come up with an alternative method of collecting revenue, perhaps looking again at their conditions of sale.
They are certainly shooting themselves in the foot in a number of respects.

...As the friend who owned the bar in Slane, he gave up and walked away from the bar game. It wasn't that he wasn't selling the drink, he just couldn't handle the short term credit period in which to shift it supposedly all before Diageo jumped on his back monthly.
He walked away from the bar game a very disillusioned man and it wasn't the lack of customers that put him out of business. He said it wasn't worth the mental stress or monthly hassle alone from Diageo.

I suspect he was/is not on his own.

88 pints. No disrespect to your friend, but his turnover of kegs should be on a weekly basis. If he couldn't pay for his stock then his problems ran alot deeper than Diagio not giving him a proper credit limit.

ardinn · 04-01-2011 03:21AM

HellFireClub wrote: »

People said the same thing to Michael O' Leary when he said he was going to fly people between two European airports for a Euro! Michael O' Leary doesn't fly anyone anywhere for a Euro, but he fills planes by convincing people that he will give them a flight for that price, it's all about getting people's bums on seats, being ruthless with the costs and then upselling all sorts of stuff to them once their bum is in the seat!

So he lies to people? He also charges advertiser to fill his planes and tunnels to subsidise flights and rips people off with charges and extras - at least the full price is on the door of a pub.

HellFireClub wrote: »

I mentioned before there, I don't do arguments or constructive feedback to managers, I just vote with my feet.

That isnt helping anyone really. Im sure if you did mention it - you would be suprised at the courtesy you receive the next time, and if my staff are rude to you or anyone and im told about it - I act on it.

Naikon · 04-01-2011 03:29AM

ardinn wrote: »

So he lies to people? He also charges advertiser to fill his planes and tunnels to subsidise flights and rips people off with charges and extras - at least the full price is on the door of a pub.

That isnt helping anyone really. Im sure if you did mention it - you would be suprised at the courtesy you receive the next time, and if my staff are rude to you or anyone and im told about it - I act on it.

Again, bad manners should NEVER be tolerated in most places. Believe it or not, barman have to put up with alot of **** at times too.

ardinn · 04-01-2011 03:31AM

starbelgrade wrote: »

OK. Hopefully this might be more constructive!

There are many issues which can be addressed - a lot of them are basics, which your customers will be able to tell you... many of them have already been suggested here. They are part of the equation, but your biggest hurdle is price.

To address this, you & your fellow publicans need to seriously get organised, get active & get hard balling. You spend millions of punts every year on stock - there is no reason why you cannot use your combined purchasing power to reduce the cost of supplies.... none at all. The only thing preventing you is lack of organisation. This is not price fixing, as you are only trying to fix the price you purchase at, not the price you are selling at.

The more publicans you get on board, the stronger hand you will have to play against the suppliers. As you gain more members it will start to snowball as no-one will want to be left out of an organisation that have the possibility of getting them cheaper supplies. Who would want to be left out of that equation?

And if Diageo don't play ball, find alternative, cheaper suppliers. They'll soon be back at you doors, begging for your business.

It is a long term solution & not a quick fix, but it is not a short term problem. Until publicans seriously address the issue of price, it doesn't matter what food you serve or how clean your toilets are, you are fighting a losing battle.

OK i'll put it this way - the suppliers of bottled goods buy their supplies from the same place - The difference is in cents not euros - therefore those suppliers would not entertain large orders for massive dicounts - only minimal. The producer will not sell to individual or small group outlets

This is true, so dont ridicule me on it, just read. - Diageo makes smirnoff vodka - Yet I am not able to purchase it from diageo as it would be up to 50% more expensive than buying it from the cash & carry. Cash & carry's like value centre with over 50 outlets across the country control the price - Diageo would not sell to a group of 10 / 20 / 50 publicans and if they did it would still be dearer than buying it from cash & carry's. The more I think about it the more it annoys me! So I hope you realise that while the idea is great. the practice is made as difficult as possible.

starbelgrade · 04-01-2011 03:33AM

ardinn wrote: »

OK i'll put it this way - the suppliers of bottled goods buy their supplies from the same place - The difference is in cents not euros - therefore those suppliers would not entertain large orders for massive dicounts - only minimal. The producer will not sell to individual or small group outlets

This is true, so dont ridicule me on it, just read. - Diageo makes smirnoff vodka - Yet I am not able to purchase it from diageo as it would be up to 50% more expensive than buying it from the cash & carry. Cash & carry's like value centre with over 50 outlets across the country control the price - Diageo would not sell to a group of 10 / 20 / 50 publicans and if they did it would still be dearer than buying it from cash & carry's. The more I think about it the more it annoys me! So I hope you realise that while the idea is great. the practice is made as difficult as possible.

Then, what's to prevent an organisation of publicans from setting up their own cash & carrys?

HellFireClub · 04-01-2011 03:34AM

ardinn wrote: »

So he lies to people? He also charges advertiser to fill his planes and tunnels to subsidise flights and rips people off with charges and extras - at least the full price is on the door of a pub.

That isnt helping anyone really. Im sure if you did mention it - you would be suprised at the courtesy you receive the next time, and if my staff are rude to you or anyone and im told about it - I act on it.

I go out to have a good time and relax, not to get into confrontations with people, in fairness to me, the problems in where I used to drink were from the top down, the owners are a family of hungry obnoxious little runts.

But on a positive note, for the first time since I think 1994, the owner of my local for the last 12 months (obviously not the same venue that I'm criticising above), came over to me just before Christmas when I was having a bit of var food and gave me a Christmas pint, this alone was enough to secure my custom for the next year, I'm off the sauce for the next few months but I'll still be going in for bar food and a coffee with mates. And the thing is, he knows from talking to me that I'm not exactly quids in at the moment, if I'm out mid week, he knows we all only spend around 20-30 quid each for a few quiet pints (there could be 4-6 of us), it's nothing compared to what we used to spend (anywhere up to 100 quid), but he appreciates it all the same, meanwhile back in that sorry kip that I previously drank in, you'd spend 50-100 Euro a week in the place, every week of the year and not get a Christmas drink, that just p*sses people off like nothing else I think...

ardinn · 04-01-2011 03:36AM

starbelgrade wrote: »

Then, what's to prevent an organisation of publicans from setting up their own cash & carrys?

Because the cash and carry's are charging what they should be charging - a publican run cash and carry would be no different.

Sure why dont we just produce the product?

HellFireClub · 04-01-2011 03:38AM

ardinn wrote: »

OK i'll put it this way - the suppliers of bottled goods buy their supplies from the same place - The difference is in cents not euros - therefore those suppliers would not entertain large orders for massive dicounts - only minimal. The producer will not sell to individual or small group outlets

This is true, so dont ridicule me on it, just read. - Diageo makes smirnoff vodka - Yet I am not able to purchase it from diageo as it would be up to 50% more expensive than buying it from the cash & carry. Cash & carry's like value centre with over 50 outlets across the country control the price - Diageo would not sell to a group of 10 / 20 / 50 publicans and if they did it would still be dearer than buying it from cash & carry's. The more I think about it the more it annoys me! So I hope you realise that while the idea is great. the practice is made as difficult as possible.

In fairness I can feel your deep sense of frustration on the thead, you sound like one of the more decent operators out there...

ardinn · 04-01-2011 03:41AM

HellFireClub wrote: »

I go out to have a good time and relax, not to get into confrontations with people, in fairness to me, the problems in where I used to drink were from the top down, the owners are a family of hungry obnoxious little runts.

But on a positive note, for the first time since I think 1994, the owner of my local for the last 12 months (obviously not the same venue that I'm criticising above), came over to me just before Christmas when I was having a bit of var food and gave me a Christmas pint, this alone was enough to secure my custom for the next year, I'm off the sauce for the next few months but I'll still be going in for bar food and a coffee with mates. And the thing is, he knows from talking to me that I'm not exactly quids in at the moment, if I'm out mid week, he knows we all only spend around 20-30 quid each for a few quiet pints (there could be 4-6 of us), it's nothing compared to what we used to spend (anywhere up to 100 quid), but he appreciates it all the same, meanwhile back in that sorry kip that I previously drank in, you'd spend 50-100 Euro a week in the place, every week of the year and not get a Christmas drink, that just p*sses people off like nothing else I think...

So you now drink in a place that appreciates its customers - thats great - I appreciate mine and they return - I have never here tried to defend badly managed pubs or ignorant staff. Thats a different issue. but when you said that you've given up on the pub - i was lead to believe that you couldnt find a decent one. So all is not lost.

starbelgrade · 04-01-2011 03:41AM

ardinn wrote: »

Because the cash and carry's are charging what they should be charging - a publican run cash and carry would be no different.

If publicans got properly organised & ran their own cash & carrys, they would be the main players in the market and would be able to demand cheaper prices from their suppliers and pass these discounts on.

ardinn wrote: »

Sure why dont we just produce the product?

First decent suggestion you've come up with. There are "cider houses" in Asturias in Spain who do exactly that. And before you say that it wouldn't work in Ireland, they took the brewing, barrelling & fermenting techniques from Ireland.

Biggins · 04-01-2011 03:42AM

Degag wrote: »

88 pints. No disrespect to your friend, but his turnover of kegs should be on a weekly basis. If he couldn't pay for his stock then his problems ran alot deeper than Diagio not giving him a proper credit limit.

The figures I used was example figures.
Crikey, I thought that was obvious!

Of course he sold a lot of drink but some weeks there was a short fall for the amount of kegs he sold. Take into account that he'd have to have in reserve extra kegs just in case (as sometimes) there was pick-up in trade depending upon season tides and/or occasions, holidays, etc.
Diageo however didn't take that into account. Because he was a lease holder, he like made that he talk to in the same position, were constantly like sharks biting at his ankles and bank accounts every month.
Eventaully he said "Fcuk this - its not worth it!"

ardinn · 04-01-2011 03:42AM

HellFireClub wrote: »

In fairness I can feel your deep sense of frustration on the thead, you sound like one of the more decent operators out there...

Thank you - I dont know whether to punch my missus to death or start balling!

ardinn · 04-01-2011 03:44AM

starbelgrade wrote: »

If publicans got properly organised & ran their own cash & carrys, they would be the main players in the market and would be able to demand cheaper prices from their suppliers and pass these discounts on.

First decent suggestion you've come up with. There are "cider houses" in Asturias in Spain who do exactly that. And before you say that it wouldn't work in Ireland, they took the brewing, barrelling & fermenting techniques from Ireland.

:headbang:

starbelgrade · 04-01-2011 03:45AM

ardinn wrote: »

:headbang:

This no time to be dancing to heavy metal.

ardinn · 04-01-2011 03:46AM

starbelgrade wrote: »

This no time to be dancing to heavy metal.

ok, now your trolling!

Degag · 04-01-2011 03:46AM

starbelgrade wrote: »

If publicans got properly organised & ran their own cash & carrys, they would be the main players in the market and would be able to demand cheaper prices from their suppliers and pass these discounts on.

First decent suggestion you've come up with. There are "cider houses" in Asturias in Spain who do exactly that. And before you say that it wouldn't work in Ireland, they took the brewing, barrelling & fermenting techniques from Ireland.

Question: Do you think that could or ever would happen?

Biggins wrote: »

The figure I used was an example figure.
Crikey, I thought that was obvious.

And? I was just stating the figure, no disrespect to you. However, my thoughts about your friend remain.

starbelgrade · 04-01-2011 03:48AM

ardinn wrote: »

ok, now your trolling!

No - now I'm rolling...

*joins in with headbanging*

TheUsual · 04-01-2011 03:49AM

ardinn wrote: »

It was a voluntary scheme where it was actually a ceiling - not a freeze, which publican COULD lower their prices - the CA twisted that into a price fix - even tho the price in almost every pub varies!

Wow. I really feel your pain.
Someone should report them to the ... ehh... Competition Authority.

Doh !

*insert fail picture*

The Pub trade is dying - Minimum price for Alcohol?

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