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Abolishment of the Seaned on the agenda for March

  • 03-01-2011 02:02AM
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,745 ✭✭✭


    The Minister for Defence Tony Killen said yesterday that the government might consider holding a referendum to abolish the Seanad at the same time as the upcoming General Election.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0103/1224286668922.html


    I think calls to abolish the Seanad are naive in the extreme, and I am rather disappointed that most/all parties are now calling for it, youth wings included.

    The governmental system of Ireland severely lacks any restraints on the power of the Taoiseach who, for all intents and purposes, can do whatever he wishes to do. This has had negative consequences. During the latter boom years, Bertie Ahern and his government pushed through terribly unsustainable budgets, and there was nothing that could stop him. A strong second house could have put the brakes on him, or at least forced him to compromise, if only because they wouldn't have gotten the spoils from the populist policies.

    If the Seanad goes we will be sealing Ireland's fate as a "democratic dictatorship", to steal a fellow Boardsie's phrase. I think it should be reformed, and reformed in such a way as to make it highly improbable that it could be controlled by the same party/coalition as the lower house. In my opinion most calls for abolishment exhibit exactly the worst of our political discourse: they are populist, not thought through whatsoever and damaging in the long run.


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Comments

  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    I suspect the important bit in that newslink is the following: "The taoiseach’s right to nominate 11 members essentially guarantees a government majority"
    ...so supposing FF know (not too hard a guess!) that they are going to lose an election and become a minority party...
    The last thing they want to do is give any incoming new party another opportunity to get one over on them!
    They are not thinking of the people, (a) they are thinking of themselves and (b) on their way out the door they can claim "well it was us that brought in this change that the populist masses wanted - score one for us!"

    FF do NOTHING unless there is a benefit to them, even if it is a side one or a sly one!
    ...But we're all supposed to be too stupid to notice these things or such possible tactics sometimes aren't we!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,807 ✭✭✭✭Orion


    I agree with Eliot completely. I'm a grassroots member of the Labour party myself but I will have no hesitation actively campaigning against abolition of the Seanad. While the Taoiseach has nominees to the upper house the nature of the Seanad as a whole is less political than the Dail. The main purpose of it is to provide a check against a single-party majority government.

    I would agree with wholesale reform of the Oireachtas but having a lower and upper house is essential to a democratic republic.


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,567 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    The Minister for Defence Tony Killen said yesterday that the government might consider holding a referendum to abolish the Seanad at the same time as the upcoming General Election.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0103/1224286668922.html


    I think calls to abolish the Seanad are naive in the extreme, and I am rather disappointed that most/all parties are now calling for it, youth wings included.

    The governmental system of Ireland severely lacks any restraints on the power of the Taoiseach who, for all intents and purposes, can do whatever he wishes to do. This has had negative consequences. During the latter boom years, Bertie Ahern and his government pushed through terribly unsustainable budgets, and there was nothing that could stop him. A strong second house could have put the brakes on him, or at least forced him to compromise, if only because they wouldn't have gotten the spoils from the populist policies.

    If the Seanad goes we will be sealing Ireland's fate as a "democratic dictatorship", to steal a fellow Boardsie's phrase. I think it should be reformed, and reformed in such a way as to make it highly improbable that it could be controlled by the same party/coalition as the lower house. In my opinion most calls for abolishment exhibit exactly the worst of our political discourse: they are populist, not thought through whatsoever and damaging in the long run.

    The reasons for removing the seanad is that it is seen as a big talking shop that costs a lot of money in terms of senadoir's pay and pensions. That could also be said to a certain extent of the Dail. I would be in favour of reducing the number in both houses, giving some more powers to the seanad e.g. to refer bills to the people or veto in default, to make binding amendments etc. The seanad should be either directly elected and have strong powers to act as checks and balances to the dail/government, or else they should be appointed but unpaid and have limited powers, such as referring bills. I would be in favour of the latter approach.

    However, the brilliance of this move is that FG threw it out there, if the people were against it FG would take the hit, since it is now a popular opinion FF take it as their own and will no doubt take the credit for it at the upcoming election (punter: "Your party is all about feathering their own nests" FF candidate: "sure we abolished the seanad, that was our idea alright") and equally have deniability when it comes to dissenters (punter: "you got rid of the seanad, that's bad for democracy" FF candidate: "it was FG's idea, we didn't want to, honest".

    In a previous thread I bemoaned the fact that if FG want to go to the election with any real policies, they would have to keep them hidden from FF until the election was imminent. Of course, FF lackies immediately pointed out that this means that FG would put their party before "national interest". You just can't win with FF and the willingness of the ordinary voter to be duped by them is incredible.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manach


    I'd agree with Biggins, that this seems an election ploy.
    Whilst I'd agree with reform of the Seanad, that body is interwoven within the constitution, the 3 months running up to the election are scarcly time for reflection on possible long term change. Politic parties, IMHO, are the biggest threat to democracy, bi-cameral sittings are not a necessity given Ireland's population.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,471 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    seeing they never bothered to even try to reform it i dont think the polticians can claim there nothing to do done but abolish it, this will just overshadowed other reforms ie powerful committees (which the seantors could then sit on)


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    seeing they never bothered to even try to reform it i dont think the polticians can claim there nothing to do done but abolish it, this will just overshadowed other reforms ie powerful committees (which the seantors could then sit on)

    The old "there is no alternative" lie as used for NAMA, Anglo & the bank pensions might be trotted out again.

    Why actually do their jobs & evaluate the BEST option for the country when those - er - worked so well?

    Against : we lose the likes of Shane Ross
    For : we lose the likes of Eoghan Harris

    Tough call on that trade-off alone.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 23,315 ✭✭✭✭amacachi


    The governmental system of Ireland severely lacks any restraints on the power of the Taoiseach who, for all intents and purposes, can do whatever he wishes to do. This has had negative consequences.

    And the Senate has done what to stop it? If it serves no purpose (as it is now) then get rid of it.

    That or else give it teeth, but that won't happen any time soon.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,161 ✭✭✭Ren2k7


    I say get rid of it. The Seanad serves no practical purpose in its present form. Democratic accountability can be much more effective by increasing the powers of dail oversight committees as well as introducing a requirement of important bills such as introducing the budget, treaties, etc be passed by super majority. For example, at least 75% of all deputies would be required to approve the passing of a budget.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 238 ✭✭proon4


    If it means that RAT Harris gets fukked out Im all for it


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 412 ✭✭Wide Road


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    The old "there is no alternative" lie as used for NAMA, Anglo & the bank pensions might be trotted out again.

    Why actually do their jobs & evaluate the BEST option for the country when those - er - worked so well?

    Against : we lose the likes of Shane Ross
    For : we lose the likes of Eoghan Harris

    Tough call on that trade-off alone.


    We will still have Shane in the paper.
    Just remind me again, which paper?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,458 ✭✭✭✭gandalf


    TBH if we can get the vote to abolish the Seanad at the same time as the General Election then I am all for it. If it gets passed then the new Government can concentrate totally on getting a list or partial list system implemented to break the grip of parish pump politics on the government in this country once and for all.

    In its current form the Seanad serves no purpose and is a drain on resources. Very few of the Senators are of any worth at all to the country.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Wide Road wrote: »
    We will still have Shane in the paper.
    Just remind me again, which paper?

    What does that have to do with anything?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,699 ✭✭✭bamboozle


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    The old "there is no alternative" lie as used for NAMA, Anglo & the bank pensions might be trotted out again.

    Why actually do their jobs & evaluate the BEST option for the country when those - er - worked so well?

    Against : we lose the likes of Shane Ross
    For : we lose the likes of Eoghan Harris

    Tough call on that trade-off alone.

    its been decades since the Seanad last rejected a Dail Bill. its a toothless body which exists to provide a salary to failed TD's and buddies of the govt, an expense we can do without.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,948 ✭✭✭gizmo555


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    Against : we lose the likes of Shane Ross
    For : we lose the likes of Eoghan Harris

    Tough call on that trade-off alone.

    I'll see your Shane Ross and raise you a Mary White and a Donie Cassidy :eek:

    The Seanad is a waste of space and fundamentally undemocratic in its electoral process. To give one bizarre example from my own family, my wife has degrees from the NUI and TCD and so gets two votes for the Senate, whereas I have none because I went to the wrong college and I'm not a councillor. On the other hand, because of my involvement in the running of a professional body, I and my colleagues there can nominate up to nine candidates for election to the Industrial and Commercial panel, but can't actually vote for any of them!

    There was talk from Senators of taking over the Natural History Museum on Merrion Street for a new chamber for them when it was closed for renovations after the staircase collapsed in it. It's fair to say the Museum does more good in providing a source of free education and enjoyment to the people on any given day it's open, than any good the Senate has done in the course of its whole useless existence.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9 Rocky1948


    The Minister for Defence Tony Killen said yesterday that the government might consider holding a referendum to abolish the Seanad at the same time as the upcoming General Election.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0103/1224286668922.html


    I think calls to abolish the Seanad are naive in the extreme, and I am rather disappointed that most/all parties are now calling for it, youth wings included.

    The governmental system of Ireland severely lacks any restraints on the power of the Taoiseach who, for all intents and purposes, can do whatever he wishes to do. This has had negative consequences. During the latter boom years, Bertie Ahern and his government pushed through terribly unsustainable budgets, and there was nothing that could stop him. A strong second house could have put the brakes on him, or at least forced him to compromise, if only because they wouldn't have gotten the spoils from the populist policies.

    If the Seanad goes we will be sealing Ireland's fate as a "democratic dictatorship", to steal a fellow Boardsie's phrase. I think it should be reformed, and reformed in such a way as to make it highly improbable that it could be controlled by the same party/coalition as the lower house. In my opinion most calls for abolishment exhibit exactly the worst of our political discourse: they are populist, not thought through whatsoever and damaging in the long run.

    What we need to do is create a strong First house to balance the power of the executive. There is no need for a second house and countless democracies that function far better than ours have no second house.

    If you do as you say all you will do is paralysis the state. If the opposition decides to simply oppose everything as they probably will do, the government won't be able to get anything through.

    At that I'd be worried Fianna Fail will try to rush this and **** it up like they **** up everything. I don't think there is enough time to put together the legalisation and I think there is a massive chance they will just mess it up and create constitutional problems. However being Fianna Fail I'd guess they'll never get around to it and we won't have a referendum anyway.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    Wide Road wrote: »
    We will still have Shane in the paper.
    Just remind me again, which paper?

    Why would I need to remind you when you only attempted the same pathetic tactic a few days ago?

    I'd get that amnesia checked, if I were you - you must be hanging around Ahern & friends FAR too much if it's that contagious!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    The idea that we should hold a referendum to abolish the Seanad at such short notice is simply impracticable.

    The institution is tightly woven into the constitution of the state, and the number of changes to be drafted would be large. Some of those changes could be contentious, and in addition to that, we Irish have a record of treating non-contentious matters as contentious. For example, we can look at the fact that we have not yet held the referendum on Children's Rights; this is in large part due to the capacity of some groups to make it a contentious issue.

    I suspect that much of our statute law might also need to be amended on the basis that it might have references to the Seanad.

    I am not saying that such things should not be done: all I am saying is that the operation is technically a bit difficult, and time is needed to prepare for it.

    If we were to be offered a referendum on the abolition of the Seanad, I can foresee another event that I would find unwelcome: the "pro-life" coalition would stalk the land again, demanding yet another referendum on the rights of the unborn.

    On the question of whether we should abolish the Seanad, I am undecided. I agree that it does not perform very well -- but if that were a basis for its abolition, then we should also abolish the Dáil. I would like to see a good discussion of what the purpose of a second chamber should do, and see if it is worth having one (that would link with consideration of what the Dáil should be doing, because one of the purposes of a second house is to complement the work of the first house). If there is a persuasive case for maintaining the Seanad, then we should further consider how its membership is to be constituted; I suspect that most people outside the political parties do not think the present arrangement delivers the sort of representation we want.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,021 ✭✭✭Sulmac


    As I've said many times on here before, I'm all for abolishing the Seanad - as long as there are substantial reforms made to the Dáil to give it real powers to legislate and scrutinise the government of the day.

    Ireland is unique in Europe as it is the only small (in terms of area and population), unitary (as opposed to federal, like Switzerland or Austria) state with a second chamber. Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Finland, Iceland, Portugal and, further afield, New Zealand all have unicameral parliaments and still manage to function - I would argue that they do a better job with one chamber than we do with two.

    Should we abolish the Seanad (and let's face it, a referendum is inevitable and now seems to have all-party support), we need to fundamentally reform the rest of the political system at national and local level.

    First of all, reform of the Dáil committees. Dáil committees need to have some teeth (even if we don't abolish the Seanad). They also need to be free from government interference. One way that this can be done is by giving committee chairs to parties based on the D'Hondt system (based on the numbers they have in the Dáil) and random allocation of seats (although possibly allow for those with specialist skills to sit in the appropriate committee, e.g. a solicitor or barrister in Justice). Committees should have the power to determine their own agenda, enact legislation, review government legislation, and compel witnesses to attend enquiries and demand documents from any government body or department.

    Secondly, a proper separation of powers needs to be introduced. No member of the cabinet should sit in the Dáil, but still be directly accountable to it. This happens in Norway and the Netherlands, where, if a member of Parliament is 'promoted' to cabinet they automatically sacrifice their seat (and are replaced by the next person in that party's list, but that's electoral reform). This has three main effects - first, the cabinet should (in theory anyway) have a more national focus as they are not tied to a constituency; second, it allows the government to bring in specialist outsiders with real skills in a given area (like the U.S. cabinet); and third, it reduces the ability of the government to dominate the Dáil. It is important that any member of the cabinet should be directly accountable to the Dáil, whether it be the chamber as a whole or the relevant committee - so 'question time' should definitely remain.

    Next is reform of the electoral system. The number of TDs needs to be reduced, even if we don't change the system from PR-STV. I would suggest 100 TDs, as this is a nice round number. Next, we need some aspect of a list to bring in TDs with a national focus, whether it is a minority, half or a majority of TDs elected this way. My own preference would be for a national list system for electing all TDs (like in the Netherlands), whereby if a party gets 1% of the vote, they get one seat. However, I feel that this is unlikely due to people wanting 'our rep up in Dublin'. The most likely system would be some form of MMP (like in Germany or New Zealand, which combines FPTP with a list), although I would go further and have half of TDs elected by STV (in much larger constituencies) and the other half by a list to ensure proportionality. At the very least, if the system is not changed, we need much bigger constituencies - STV is most effective (in terms of proportionality) with more seats; every constituency should have at least 5 seats (not 3, which in rural areas means that Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael usually dominate).

    Following on from this, local government, as it stands, needs to be completely scrapped and replaced. We need a local government system that has real powers, crucially the power to raise its own revenue and not be dependent on central government for hand outs. A two-tier system of regions and municipalities (like most other European countries) would be best. The regions would be based around the cities/largest towns (like the current regions), while below them the municipalities would be based around towns (or in some areas, groups of islands or other geographic features) within the regions, similar to the District Councils in Northern Ireland. The regions and municipalities would be given their own responsibilities (e.g. regional roads, public transport, hospitals, tourism, water supply, etc. in the regions; local roads, primary and secondary education, libraries, swimming pools, primary health care, parks, etc. in the municipalities). Some areas (such as tertiary education) would be shared with national government but most of its focus would be on issues of national importance - justice, natural resources, international relations, the economy, etc. Local government would be able to raise their own revenue through tax, including property taxes and by taking a share of income tax and VAT raised in their area (or even, as in the Nordic countries, by being able to raise income tax within limits). Both regions and municipalities would have directly elected 'assemblies' as well as 'mayors' with real powers. The main effect of this is allowing national politicians to care about national issues. Got a pothole in your road? Go to the municipality. Problems with your social welfare application? Go to the regional government.

    So, in short, I support the abolition of the Seanad - if we abolish most of the rest our political system and start again. :D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭OhNoYouDidn't


    bamboozle wrote: »
    its been decades since the Seanad last rejected a Dail Bill. its a toothless body which exists to provide a salary to failed TD's and buddies of the govt, an expense we can do without.

    So reform it.

    The idea that we would fundamentally weaken democracy and hand the executive even more power to save a few quid is daft. We need MORE political accountability, not less.

    But making Harris redundant is quite the carrot to vote yes.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,684 ✭✭✭JustinDee


    You mention Norway in your example.
    I'll just point out that politicians in Norway are ultimately unapproachable. There is no way for constituents to contact any local representitive. It is a setup where they are accountable to no-one else but other politicians except on election day.
    In my experience anyway (I lived five years in Norway).


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    JustinDee wrote: »
    You mention Norway in your example.
    I'll just point out that politicians in Norway are ultimately unapproachable. There is no way for constituents to contact any local representitive. It is a setup where they are accountable to no-one else but other politicians except on election day.
    In my experience anyway (I lived five years in Norway).

    Does it make for a worse democracy?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,366 ✭✭✭ninty9er


    Vest the powers of the Seanad in the President. For anything he or she wishes to challenge or further debate the Council of State must be convened (similar to before Christmas) It is mainly comprised of those retired from politics and gives the government of the day a chance to have its say too.

    It gives legitimacy to the President, though it politicises the office.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,684 ✭✭✭JustinDee


    Does it make for a worse democracy?

    If you like red-tape and barriers when trying to contact a local representitive then no.
    However, in my experience (requesting assistance with my better half's illness), at the end of the day it certainly doesn't shine any lights over the system here.
    As I said, the electorate has a say once every Statsminister term. Outside of that, forget it, take a number and get in queue.

    As far as party politics and policy implementation goes, on the surface at least, there is a different attitude to Ireland. Parliamentary structure has little to do with this however.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,366 ✭✭✭ninty9er


    But what would you need from a Norwegian MP, for example, that would require you to contact them?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,848 ✭✭✭bleg


    They're getting rid of the Senate so it looks like they're implementing political change without implementing any at all.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,366 ✭✭✭ninty9er


    bleg wrote: »
    They're getting rid of the Senate so it looks like they're implementing political change without implementing any at all.

    What's worse is that there are people out there who will vote in large numbers agreeing without actually seeing the consequences.

    It suits the Dáil to have no Seanad, it doesn't suit anyone else.

    http://www.politics.ie/fianna-fail/41470-fianna-fail-senators-bizarre-fillibuster-harbours-bill-3.html


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,200 ✭✭✭imme


    We're not the United States of America OP.
    Our second house as you call it was never a 'stong second house' , it's not a counter weight to the Dail.

    Please find me one piece of significant piece of legislation that originated in the Seanad in the last 20 years, even ever.

    The place has become a talking shop, probably always was. A place for redundant politicians for the most part.

    There are of course effective parliamentarians in there, but they're in the minority.

    I like the idea of a second house, one that would offer opinions of a different Ireland from the Dail, but the Seanad is a sad political effort.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,684 ✭✭✭JustinDee


    ninty9er wrote: »
    But what would you need from a Norwegian MP, for example, that would require you to contact them?
    Strange question.
    Help from a representitive in beating through the red-tape of a kommune office during an urgent time.

    Do you think that parliamentary ministers should be above contact from the electorate? They are representitives. Not icons.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,366 ✭✭✭ninty9er


    JustinDee wrote: »
    Strange question.
    Help from a representitive in beating through the red-tape of a kommune office during an urgent time.

    Do you think that parliamentary ministers should be above contact from the electorate? They are representitives. Not icons.

    Well what you need then is a social worker, not an MP. That's what's broken with the Irish system.

    People have become dependent on TDs to an extent where they think TDs are actually getting something for them. The reality is that if they could be arsed to spend a day or 2 hassling civil servants they'd get it anyway.

    TDs are national legislators, not civil servant hasslers (in theory.)


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    JustinDee wrote: »
    If you like red-tape and barriers when trying to contact a local representitive then no.
    However, in my experience (requesting assistance with my better half's illness), at the end of the day it certainly doesn't shine any lights over the system here....

    I'm never happy to hear of people in difficulty, and am sorry that you had a bad experience.

    But I think it wrong that access to state services or support should be mediated by politicians. It distracts politicians from doing their work of representing people more generally, and as legislators; it can clog up administrative procedures; it can result in queue-jumping; it can be a form of petty corruption.


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