Is it true that...

overmantle · 23-12-2010 03:49PM

Dark Onion, I agree that religion is more to do with a moral education than simply religion. The A Live O programme is followed in Catholic schools and it is very inoffensive to followers of other religions and none. The focus is on morality and being an honest, good person rather than any kind of bible bashing.

#15 · 23-12-2010 07:32PM

overmantle wrote: »

Dark Onion, I agree that religion is more to do with a moral education than simply religion. The A Live O programme is followed in Catholic schools and it is very inoffensive to followers of other religions and none. The focus is on morality and being an honest, good person rather than any kind of bible bashing.

That's missing the point though.

Would you be happy if we switched the catholic program with a muslim program (for example) as long as the emphasis was on morality?
Would you genuinely not mind?

overmantle · 23-12-2010 08:15PM

#15, A moral programme would be the most important thing for me. Having said that, whether practising or not, in name, we are still largely a Christian country, the majority of whose citizens are baptised Catholic.

Mind you, I had an interesting conversation with one Muslim parent a few years ago, who was making a pretty unrealistic request (Any and all realistic requests are readily, willingly and happily accommodated). I asked him if I went to his country and brought my children to be educated there and made such a request, what would the response be? He was absolutely horrified and readily admitted that my children would NOT be accepted there. He was almost sick at the thought of such a request being made in HIS country. So, the inclusiveness, welcoming attitude and accommodation that currently exist in Irish schools (most of which happen to be Catholic in name) for children of all faiths and none, is to be celebrated and acknowledged.

#15 · 23-12-2010 10:49PM

overmantle wrote: »

Mind you, I had an interesting conversation with one Muslim parent a few years ago, who was making a pretty unrealistic request (Any and all realistic requests are readily, willingly and happily accommodated). I asked him if I went to his country and brought my children to be educated there and made such a request, what would the response be? He was absolutely horrified and readily admitted that my children would NOT be accepted there. He was almost sick at the thought of such a request being made in HIS country. So, the inclusiveness, welcoming attitude and accommodation that currently exist in Irish schools (most of which happen to be Catholic in name) for children of all faiths and none, is to be celebrated and acknowledged.

It's an interesting story but not really relevant.

We should not judge ourselves against backward mindsets. What muslims do in their own countries has no bearing on our aspirations for our country.

I also have an interesting but irrelevant story.:) When the priest comes into the classroom*, and asks the catholic children to stand up to say a prayer, 21 of my kids stay sitting. 5 stand up to pray.
It's farcical.

*an outdated practice in itself.

#15, A moral programme would be the most important thing for me. Having said that, whether practising or not, in name, we are still largely a Christian country, the majority of whose citizens are baptised Catholic.

That's fudging my question.:)

If the moral aspect is the most important part, would you be happy for our schools to follow muslim, jewish, buddhist, scientologist or hindu programs, as long as they didn't go heavy on the religious stuff and focused on morals?

scifi77 · 24-12-2010 12:07AM

overmantle wrote: »

#15, A moral programme would be the most important thing for me. Having said that, whether practising or not, in name, we are still largely a Christian country, the majority of whose citizens are baptised Catholic.

Mind you, I had an interesting conversation with one Muslim parent a few years ago, who was making a pretty unrealistic request (Any and all realistic requests are readily, willingly and happily accommodated). I asked him if I went to his country and brought my children to be educated there and made such a request, what would the response be? He was absolutely horrified and readily admitted that my children would NOT be accepted there. He was almost sick at the thought of such a request being made in HIS country. So, the inclusiveness, welcoming attitude and accommodation that currently exist in Irish schools (most of which happen to be Catholic in name) for children of all faiths and none, is to be celebrated and acknowledged.

I have been reading this thread and having sampled both the ET and RC school systems with my kids, I find I have top agree with overmantle. Originally, I thought ET would be the answer to all my problems. Without boring you all, it definitely wasn't. We switched to a Catholic school, which we had originally decided against, in favour of ET. We had the idea that it would be OTT, biased, you name it, that was the preconceived idea we had and we weren't going there.

Since we changed to the Catholic school, although our kids are not practising, we have found it a breath of fresh air. Our preconceived ideas were unfounded (totally) and when I think back, it was very much a case of ....the grass is always greener.... Well from my experience, it's not.

scifi77 · 24-12-2010 12:13AM

overmantle wrote: »

Pixied, this may be the situation in some Dublin schools, where there is huge demand for places. It is NOT the situation in many other schools.

I'm definitely with Mat Cauthon on this one in that it is only as much of a biggie as you choose to make it or to perceive it. The analogy of Ancient Greece and Zeus may not have been the best one to use but thousands of existing non-Catholic parents, up and down the country, are thrilled with the schools they attend, even though the Denomination of those schools happens to be Catholic.

I wonder how familiar some of the scaremongerers really are with the regular primary school of 2010/11? To listen to some, one could be forgiven for thinking that bible bashers are pounding the corridors throughout the day. This is NOT the case. I have several friends (atheists, muslims, and other faiths) whose kids attend 'catholic' schools and although some may have had reservations beforehand, all are thrilled with the schools and none have any reservations now.Hth.

When I read this, I recognised myself, about 5 or 6 years ago! I had the notion of the bible bashers pounding the corridors. I was wrong. We live and learn. If people had told me 6 years ago that I would be where I am now, I would have told them to have their heads examined.

thebullkf · 24-12-2010 02:33PM

#15 wrote: »

Religion is not a part of the state curriculum, but there are religious programs that are taught in faith-ethos schools.

so?.... we're a catholic country.....

Ireland is not a catholic country.

i think you'll find it is....

It is a democratic republic that aspires to treat all faiths equally.

It just so happens that the vast majority of the population are catholics. Even then, most of those catholics seem to be fairly lax in their adherence to church rules

thus as a democracy, (in its simplest form) means majority rules..if you lived in a muslim country,that incidently was a democracy,the same rules apply..

There is no reason for the state not to actually ensure that state schools are places where one faith is not promoted over others.

The whole set up your own schools argument is a bit tiresome. Not everyone has the time to undertake such projects.

the state can't provide for eveyone's belief's,but it does try,based on demand.... the demand is currently Catholic majority... if people feel strongly enough about 'such projects' then change will come.

Well, it is a major problem for him/her, and shouldn't be dismissed just because others are happy to accept the current farcical set-up.

i never dismissed anybody,i just stated the facts

i've no issue, as millions others don't with religion being taught in schools, school is a small part of the day, religion classes even less so,one can always opt out of it,also in its simplest form religion teaches temperance,respect,collaboration and love for fellow man...its a good thing , no?

i understand it also teaches subservience,idolatry,and a myriad of other things i don't agree with, but hey- I decide whts relevant....as does EVERYONE ELSE....
the Zeus arguement is just as false,as its your intepretation that really matter's...

#15 wrote: »

That's missing the point though.

Would you be happy if we switched the catholic program with a muslim program (for example) as long as the emphasis was on morality?

Would you genuinely not mind?

I would, if i lived in a muslim country...... you sound like you wouldn't ....

thebullkf · 24-12-2010 02:46PM

#15 wrote: »

It's an interesting story but not really relevant.

why?... because it disagrees with your idea's

its anecdotal evidence.
it should be treated as thus.. not dismissed...

We should not judge ourselves against backward mindsets. What muslims do in their own countries has no bearing on our aspirations for our country.

whats backwards.... Muslim country's? i mean after all one could easily insert
Non-Denom. instead of Muslim in that sentence... we are a Catholic/Christian country/Society/Democracy.. i for one minute don't believe muslim schools would admit Christian Students who denounced the muslim faith...yet we do..its a sign of temperance.

I also have an interesting but irrelevant story.:) When the priest comes into the classroom*, and asks the catholic children to stand up to say a prayer, 21 of my kids stay sitting. 5 stand up to pray.
It's farcical.

*an outdated practice in itself.

why is farcical?... were the Priest to come in and DEMAND everyone stand up and pray regardless of race/creed/religion that would be farcical..

That's fudging my question.:)

If the moral aspect is the most important part, would you be happy for our schools to follow muslim, jewish, buddhist, scientologist or hindu programs, as long as they didn't go heavy on the religious stuff and focused on morals?

no, not our schools..... because ours is a catholic society.

philologos · 24-12-2010 02:50PM

thebullkf - We're becoming a pluralism if we're not already one. A lot of people believe in Christ, of many different Christian traditions not just Catholics. Then of course we have non-believers and other religious minorities. The education system will need to change eventually.

The way I can see this happening is having both faith and secular schools and allow parents to choose which they'd like their kids to go to according to demand.

Faith schools being schools which taught a faith dimension in the every day functionality of the school. Secular schools being ones where this wasn't provided. Quite simple.

We can't work assuming that everyone is a Roman Catholic because this is no longer the case.

thebullkf · 24-12-2010 03:36PM

Jakkass wrote: »

thebullkf - We're becoming a pluralism if we're not already one. A lot of people believe in Christ, of many different Christian traditions not just Catholics. Then of course we have non-believers and other religious minorities. The education system will need to change eventually.

agreed.

The way I can see this happening is having both faith and secular schools and allow parents to choose which they'd like their kids to go to according to demand.

their is already a demand..demand is mainly Catholic/Christian.

Faith schools being schools which taught a faith dimension in the every day functionality of the school. Secular schools being ones where this wasn't provided. Quite simple.

simple in theory only. so which faith is taught in your idea of faith schools??...the majority?

if so this is already the case.

also people have forgotten a lot of schools were set up via Christian means as a way of educating the poor and those who normally couldn't/wouldn't have access to an education. An education based on reason,forgiveness,strength and humility.

We can't work assuming that everyone is a Roman Catholic because this is no longer the case.

we're not....we're not still teaching religon for tradition purposes,but rather for the will of the majority.

If schools were to announce in January that they were to cease teaching religion due to its irrelevance in todays society,there would be nationwide protest and demonstrations.... due to the majority.

D4RK ONION · 24-12-2010 03:51PM

thebullkf wrote: »

their is already a demand..demand is mainly Catholic/Christian.

...

we're not....we're not still teaching religon for tradition purposes,but rather for the will of the majority.

Perhaps you missed the Irish Times poll this year where a majority of the Irish people want the Catholic Church to give up control of Primary Schools.

Irish Times poll wrote:

When asked about the issue, 61 per cent of people said the church should give up control of the school system, 28 per cent said it should maintain its position and 11 per cent had no opinion on the matter.

So your assertion that the continued teaching of religion for traditional purposes is for "the will of the majority" is incorrect.

If schools were to announce in January that they were to cease teaching religion due to its irrelevance in todays society,there would be nationwide protest and demonstrations.... due to the majority.

I sincerely doubt that (A) if changes were to come about they would be as draconian as to cease religious education altogether and (B) that people would be so furious. A minority perhaps.

overmantle · 24-12-2010 06:03PM

scifi77 wrote: »

I have been reading this thread and having sampled both the ET and RC school systems with my kids, I find I have top agree with overmantle. Originally, I thought ET would be the answer to all my problems. Without boring you all, it definitely wasn't. We switched to a Catholic school, which we had originally decided against, in favour of ET. We had the idea that it would be OTT, biased, you name it, that was the preconceived idea we had and we weren't going there.

Since we changed to the Catholic school, although our kids are not practising, we have found it a breath of fresh air. Our preconceived ideas were unfounded (totally) and when I think back, it was very much a case of ....the grass is always greener.... Well from my experience, it's not.

All too often, people who feel strongly about something and later find that they may have been overzealous in their condemnation of a particular system, can be very slow to come back and admit that. Scifi77, you are to be commended for your honesty.

As regards the results of a particular question asked in a poll, it's a well known fact that results always depend on the way in which (and the context in which) that question is asked. Fact is that the majority of citizens in this country choose to baptise their children Catholic in 2010, so we are still largely a Catholic country, which is an inclusive and accommodating.

philologos · 24-12-2010 06:03PM

thebullkf wrote: »

agreed.

their is already a demand..demand is mainly Catholic/Christian.

A lot of it is, and a lot of it isn't.

thebullkf wrote: »

simple in theory only. so which faith is taught in your idea of faith schools??...the majority?

By population demand. So in towns mostly your Roman Catholic / Church of Ireland, and probably a secular school. In cities you'll probably get Islamic and Hindu schools as well as more secular schools.

if so this is already the case.

thebullkf wrote: »

also people have forgotten a lot of schools were set up via Christian means as a way of educating the poor and those who normally couldn't/wouldn't have access to an education. An education based on reason,forgiveness,strength and humility.

Society has changed. Christianity isn't obsolete, but there are non-Christians amongst us who should be given the freedom to educate their children in a secular school.

thebullkf wrote: »

we're not....we're not still teaching religon for tradition purposes,but rather for the will of the majority.

I was educated in CofI schools, I was educated with peers of differing faiths. Faith formation took place outside the classroom, basic teaching about Christianity did take place in the class room and in assembly on Fridays from what I remember of primary.

As for it not being about tradition. Irish religion is largely about tradition. We should move towards a faith that thinks rather than one that's just done because of family associations.

thebullkf wrote: »

If schools were to announce in January that they were to cease teaching religion due to its irrelevance in todays society,there would be nationwide protest and demonstrations.... due to the majority.

To a few it's irrelevant. To a lot of us its still relevant. There is no point forcing non-religious parents to raise their children Christian. They will become Christians if they want to, and in a society largely influenced by Christianity they will learn about the Gospel at some point.

D4RK ONION: I don't think they should give up all primary schools, rather secular, Islamic and other alternatives should be provided by the Government alongside the faith school system largely by the RCC, Church of Ireland, Presbyterians and Methodists.

#15 · 24-12-2010 06:16PM

Haven't time to give you a really detailed response thebulkf. Just a few points:

- I will say that those catholics who support the current system are making a mockery of their faith.
Would you not prefer to have a smaller number of faith schools - in return for knowing that the students and teachers were genuinely of that faith? Instead of the curent set-up, where catholic schools are forced to act as catch-all institutions, diluting their own ethos in the process.
No one wins in this scenario.

- Ireland is not a catholic country. It's a democratic republic where the majority faith is catholicism.
There's a subtle but important difference in the two statements.

also people have forgotten a lot of schools were set up via Christian means as a way of educating the poor and those who normally couldn't/wouldn't have access to an education.

Partly. But you are naive if you think they are the only reasons for religious education.
It was also an easy way of securing a steady supply of unquestioning followers. Future customers, to be cynical about it.

If schools were to announce in January that they were to cease teaching religion due to its irrelevance in todays society,there would be nationwide protest and demonstrations.... due to the majority.

You have no basis for that claim whatsoever.

We've seen a sex abuse crisis, an IMF bailout, banking scandals, etc., and we haven't seen nationwide protests.

What on earth makes you think this country would become even more animated by education reform? It's unrealistic in the extreme.

thebullkf · 24-12-2010 06:20PM

D4RK ONION wrote: »

Perhaps you missed the Irish Times poll this year where a majority of the Irish people want the Catholic Church to give up control of Primary Schools.

a majority of whom???.Irish Times readers?... where you asked?...i wasn't/didn't participate.. also its quite telling that it was in the wake of the Murphy report.

Also i might add- i never said anything about control .... i'm talking about teaching of religon in schools where non catholics attend,and/or are offended by it..

So your assertion that the continued teaching of religion for traditional purposes is for "the will of the majority" is incorrect.

See above^^ ... i also said we weren't teaching cos of tradition,please quote me correctly if you are quoting me thats twice in your first two responses.

I sincerely doubt that (A) if changes were to come about they would be as draconian as to cease religious education altogether

i don't think so either,iwas trying to illustrate a point.

and (B) that people would be so furious. A minority perhaps.

well maybe a minority of IT readers perhaps.,(incidentally its not even the most popular paper a la Sunday Indo.)

#15 · 24-12-2010 06:22PM

overmantle wrote: »

Fact is that the majority of citizens in this country choose to baptise their children Catholic in 2010, so we are still largely a Catholic country, which is an inclusive and accommodating.

That is an unreliable measurement tool.

Baptism is as much a cultural as religious tradition at this point. You forgot to say that a sizeable proportion of those baptised children won't see the inside of a church until the day of their first confessions.

There's a difference between cultural catholicism and actual catholicism. Church attendance stats would surely be a more reliable measurement of the numbers of practising catholics?

thebullkf · 24-12-2010 06:26PM

Jakkass wrote: »

Society has changed. Christianity isn't obsolete, but there are non-Christians amongst us who should be given the freedom to educate their children in a secular school.

you are being given freedom to choose...

As for it not being about tradition. Irish religion is largely about tradition. We should move towards a faith that thinks rather than one that's just done because of family associations.

Irish religion?...you mean catholicism? .... i don't understand you're second point above?

To a few it's irrelevant. To a lot of us its still relevant. There is no point forcing non-religious parents to raise their children Christian. They will become Christians if they want to, and in a society largely influenced by Christianity they will learn about the Gospel at some point.

nobody's forcing anybody to do anything...... you have a choice...would you have such a choice elsewhere?

#15 · 24-12-2010 06:28PM

thebullkf wrote: »

a majority of whom???.Irish Times readers?... where you asked?...i wasn't/didn't participate.. also its quite telling that it was in the wake of the Murphy report.

No, it's an MRBI poll, so it's a representative sample of the adult population. You hardly think it's just IT readers that were surveyed?:eek:

Secondly, are people supposed to just ignore the murphy report and not let it influence their opinions? I know the truth might bother some people, but it can't be swept under the carpet.

thebullkf · 24-12-2010 06:29PM

#15 wrote: »

That is an unreliable measurement tool.

Baptism is as much a cultural as religious tradition at this point. You forgot to say that a sizeable proportion of those baptised children won't see the inside of a church until the day of their first confessions.

funny how that isn't and a newspaper published poll is ???:rolleyes:

pathetic imo.

There's a difference between cultural catholicism and actual catholicism. Church attendance stats would surely be a more reliable measurement of the numbers of practising catholics?

do you have any stats?? people don't go to mass for tradition,they go to practise their faith.
the only Church i'll be in this xmas is in mary st....supping pints;)

philologos · 24-12-2010 06:29PM

thebullkf wrote: »

you are being given freedom to choose...

Many parents can't choose at the minute between RCC or secular school.

thebullkf wrote: »

Irish religion?...you mean catholicism? .... i don't understand you're second point above?

Irish religion goes beyond Catholicism. I'd include other Irish forms of Protestantism. It's very ritualistic. It's more about going through the motions rather than a thought conviction. It was a realisation I kind of had in my teenage years that made me see this quite clearly.

thebullkf wrote: »

nobody's forcing anybody to do anything...... you have a choice...would you have such a choice elsewhere?

There is no choice for many parents due to a lack of alternatives. That's the point being made. In other countries there is a better choice. In the UK for example. In other countries like France there is no choice because all schools are secular. I don't really support that either. I support the middle ground of having both.

#15 · 24-12-2010 06:30PM

thebullkf wrote: »

you are being given freedom to choose...

That's the whole point of this thread.
There is no freedom of choice for most people. It's a catholic school or nothing, in most areas of the country.

thebullkf · 24-12-2010 06:32PM

#15 wrote: »

No, it's an MRBI poll, so it's a representative sample of the adult population. You hardly think it's just IT readers that were surveyed?:eek:

who was surveyed???.... how many? .. its not a reflection of the majority imo.

Secondly, are people supposed to just ignore the murphy report and not let it influence their opinions? I know the truth might bother some people, but it can't be swept under the carpet.

no, i never said that either,but peoples opinions are influenced all the time,especially by association....
eg rise in sales of Kale @ Halloween, Turkey @ Christmas etc

#15 · 24-12-2010 06:32PM

thebullkf wrote: »

funny how that isn't and a newspaper published poll is ???:rolleyes:

pathetic imo.

Can you rephrase? I didn't understand that.

do you have any stats?? people don't go to mass for tradition,they go to practise their faith.

That's my point. Church-goers are practising their faith, therefore the most reliable measurement of the strength of the catholic church is in the number of regular church-goers.
It's a simple enough idea tbf.

thebullkf · 24-12-2010 06:35PM

#15 wrote: »

That's the whole point of this thread.
There is no freedom of choice for most people. It's a catholic school or nothing, in most areas of the country.

well then move!!.... its very simple,and it comes back to the initial assertion that we are in fact. a catholic country,whereas the majority of people are indeed catholic.

also you have freedom to opt out of religious classes in school.

philologos · 24-12-2010 06:35PM

#15 wrote: »

Partly. But you are naive if you think they are the only reasons for religious education.
It was also an easy way of securing a steady supply of unquestioning followers. Future customers, to be cynical about it.

I think you're off the mark here #15. Just because you are an atheist doesn't mean that people who actually believe are all "unquestioning".

thebullkf · 24-12-2010 06:37PM

#15 wrote: »

Can you rephrase? I didn't understand that.

you disregard Baptism figures..... but include figures from a newspaperpublished poll.

That's my point. Church-goers are practising their faith, therefore the most reliable measurement of the strength of the catholic church is in the number of regular church-goers.
It's a simple enough idea tbf.

i agree, do you have stats??

#15 · 24-12-2010 06:40PM

Jakkass wrote: »

I think you're off the mark here #15. Just because you are an atheist doesn't mean that people who actually believe are all "unquestioning".

Admittedly, I had my cynical hat on there. Did not mean to imply that all believers are unquestioning, just that certain authorities might have had that goal in mind for religious education.

I'm not entirely sure I'm an atheist either.:)

I do however, believe in seperation of church and state. I don't think that principle is incompatible with being religious or spiritual.

thebullkf · 24-12-2010 06:41PM

Jakkass wrote: »

Many parents can't choose at the minute between RCC or secular school.

Irish religion goes beyond Catholicism. I'd include other Irish forms of Protestantism. It's very ritualistic. It's more about going through the motions rather than a thought conviction. It was a realisation I kind of had in my teenage years that made me see this quite clearly.

says you;)-

There is no choice for many parents due to a lack of alternatives. That's the point being made. In other countries there is a better choice. In the UK for example. In other countries like France there is no choice because all schools are secular. I don't really support that either. I support the middle ground of having both.

there's not enough money for existing schools...never mind secular ones.

#15 · 24-12-2010 06:42PM

thebullkf wrote: »

well then move!!.... its very simple,and it comes back to the initial assertion that we are in fact. a catholic country,whereas the majority of people are indeed catholic.

also you have freedom to opt out of religious classes in school.

That's a disgusting attiutude.

Be catholic, or bog off basically.

It's not the 1950s, we have joined the modern world you know?

We're not a catholic country, please stop repeating that lie. We have a majority catholic population, but the state is neutral. It's not catholic.

philologos · 24-12-2010 06:44PM

#15 does that position mean you support scrapping all faith schools. I'm confused, where exactly do you lie on the issue. Where I am I'm in the middle.

Is it true that...

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