We Should Abolish Income Tax

RockinRolla · 18-12-2010 03:50PM #1

Income Tax, like much of the badly thought out legislation brought forward by modern day governments, was initially "sold" to the public as a temporary tax, something that was needed simply to deal with a specific pressing problem—the financing of the Napoleonic Wars.

However, as governments over the years became accustomed to having the tax provide a useful revenue stream, all pretence at hypothecation vanished—the Income Tax became a part of our daily lives, which most people now accept unthinkingly.

At the end of the 18th century, Britain was facing a serious threat from French military forces under the control of Napoleon. In 1799, they introduced the first national Income Tax, as "a temporary measure" in order to fund those wars.

After the war, they got rid of it and it remained that way, largely unchanged, until the First World War. At the outbreak of hostilities, the standard rate of tax was still a modest 6% but, just 4 years later, this had risen to 30%. The modern Income Tax regime has altered little since.

Governments are horrifically inefficient at spending public money. It has been estimated that for every 1Euro in tax that you and I pay, only approximately 50% of it is returned to front-line services, once it has been through the bureaucracy of government. This means that if we were purchasing our child's healthcare direct, we would get twice as much value for money than our tax funded government achieves. Just look at the state of the HSE!

And the most worrying part of this is that the poorest in our society are the hardest hit. Not only would we slash public spending, but the abolition of personal Income Tax would be a lasting achievement; it would be a brave or foolhardy government indeed that would attempt to reintroduce it (Fianna Fail anyone? :rolleyes:). It is a policy which makes sound economic sense, would benefit everyone in our society—and in particular the poorest—and would help curb future government excesses both in spending and the amount of control that the State could exercise over us.
(This does not have to include the super wealthy of course.)

Duffy the Vampire Slayer · 18-12-2010 03:53PM

Poll options arent the best.

red menace · 18-12-2010 03:57PM

Income tax yields 12 to 13 billion a year, where would the money come from otherwise?

TheZohanS · 18-12-2010 03:57PM

You haven't thought this one through OP...

dlofnep · 18-12-2010 04:01PM

How do you propose the country operates without income tax? Am I missing something here?

dlofnep · 18-12-2010 04:02PM

PS: Options fail.

Fukuyama · 18-12-2010 04:03PM

Might actually have some merit...

Obviously we'd have to pay for our own education, healthcare, etc... etc... But at least you're not being robbed by a government.

Might create a few more jobs too...

RockinRolla · 18-12-2010 04:04PM

red menace wrote: »

Income tax yields 12 to 13 billion a year, where would the money come from otherwise?

According to government statistics in Britain (because we are a smaller nation), Income Tax raised £143bln in 2006/07, which accounted for approximately one quarter of their total government spending of £534bln (public sector current expenditure plus net investment).

However, consider this: in 2001/02, their equivalent government spending was £378bln. Were we to return to a similar level relevent to Irelands spending, we would have more than enough income from other sources to immediately abolish Income Tax. Just look at the new taxes they are going to make us pay....property tax and water charges?

Have the improvements to public services since 2002 really been worth 40% of everything that you've earned? Could you have got better value buying these services directly, leaving your family better off?

It's an example of how wasteful government spending truly is. Even after the abolition of Income Tax there would be money left over from other sources remaining—sufficient to also abolish other taxes and duties.

philologos · 18-12-2010 04:05PM

Everyone is going to want income tax to be gotten rid of. The fact of the matter is that this is never going to happen given that our taxes go to fund essential services or in the case of Ireland essential debt clearing.

kilburn · 18-12-2010 04:07PM

my god what a daft suggestion

red menace · 18-12-2010 04:16PM

RockinRolla wrote: »

According to government statistics in Britain (because we are a smaller nation), Income Tax raised £143bln in 2006/07, which accounted for approximately one quarter of their total government spending of £534bln (public sector current expenditure plus net investment).

However, consider this: in 2001/02, their equivalent government spending was £378bln. Were we to return to a similar level relevent to Irelands spending, we would have more than enough income from other sources to immediately abolish Income Tax. Just look at the new taxes they are going to make us pay....property tax and water charges?

Have the improvements to public services since 2002 really been worth 40% of everything that you've earned? Could you have got better value buying these services directly, leaving your family better off?

It's an example of how wasteful government spending truly is. Even after the abolition of Income Tax there would be money left over from other sources remaining—sufficient to also abolish other taxes and duties.

According to the Libertarian Party anyway

http://lpuk.org/pages/manifesto/economy/income-tax.php

Can the UK economy really be compared to ours?

red menace · 18-12-2010 04:18PM

What proportion of total income for Ireland is derived from Income Tax

RockinRolla · 18-12-2010 04:18PM

red menace wrote: »

According to the Libertarian Party anyway

http://lpuk.org/pages/manifesto/economy/income-tax.php

Can the UK economy really be compared to ours?

Of course I'm a Libertarian.

I don't hide the fact and that is the question of the poll. Would it be good for Ireland and would the majority agree to it.

Surely we are capable of finding better value for our money if we sought out our own health care providers and educational establishments without Government getting involved in the process.

irishguy · 18-12-2010 04:19PM

I think your question should be. Should we privatise the hell out of the public sector as they are so inefficient at delivering services, thus being able to reduce taxes? Then I would have to agree with you.

amen · 18-12-2010 04:20PM

State needs to raise income from somewhere.

A better option might be to just start with everyone above a certain income (maybe minimum wage income) paying 20% of tax on all income. No tax breaks, reliefs etc.

red menace · 18-12-2010 04:22PM

RockinRolla wrote: »

Of course I'm a Libertarian.

I don't hide the fact and that is the question of the poll. Would it be good for Ireland and would the majority agree to it.

Surely we are capable of finding better value for our money if we sought out our own health care providers and educational establishments without Government getting involved in the process.

I would vote yes when you prove a real alternative based on Irish statistics not copied and pasted from an English website

PeakOutput · 18-12-2010 04:23PM

if everyone accepted the principle that they have to pay for their own services(health care education etc) then it could absolutely work

the problem is most people on low to middle income think they are are paying for everything through their taxes and their taxes cover the things they need (health education for example) but they would quickly find out that that is not the case when they show up to a+e and have to pay the bill (anything remotely serious and they wont be able to afford it without a massive loan)

the fact is that through income tax the low to middle income earners are subsidised by the high earners and once that cold hard reality smacks them in the face they will realise what a bad idea it was to get rid of the income tax

high earners would obviously not have a problem with it as they would save a large chunk of money every month and could afford to send kids to college and pay for unexpected health care costs without going bankrupt

RockinRolla · 18-12-2010 04:23PM

irishguy wrote: »

I think your question should be. Should we privatise the hell out of the public sector as they are so inefficient at delivering services, thus being able to reduce taxes? Then I would have to agree with you.

I'm also in favour of privatising all public sectors.

I strongly feel individual companies and competition between them to get our money will deliver a better services for us, the paying consumers. Government are doing a ghastly job at it. Ive stated this numerous times and its a political belief of mine.

Privatise bus, rail, An Post, television and radio, schools and hospitals.

Mardy Bum · 18-12-2010 04:24PM

irishguy wrote: »

I think your question should be. Should we privatise the hell out of the public sector as they are so inefficient at delivering services, thus being able to reduce taxes? Then I would have to agree with you.

Most of the state bodies and semi state bodies have too high of start up costs and this would just transfer on to the consumer.

mikemac · 18-12-2010 04:25PM

Interesting thread, a terrible poll though.

mikemac · 18-12-2010 04:26PM

RockinRolla wrote: »

Privatise bus, rail, An Post, television and radio, schools and hospitals.

An Post is a commercial company and doesn't receive state funds

RockinRolla · 18-12-2010 04:26PM

red menace wrote: »

I would vote yes when you prove a real alternative based on Irish statistics not copied and pasted from an English website

Don't throw a hissy over particulars in a bid to make your opinion look anymore legitimate, for goodness sake. Thats what the point of this thread is - to find out how we feel, as a nation. I used the Libertarian website because Irelands version is not up to scratch.

Get over it and if youve nothing constructive to say, then leave the thread.

philologos · 18-12-2010 04:28PM

RockinRolla wrote: »

Privatise bus, rail, An Post, television and radio, schools and hospitals.

I couldn't imagine much worse. Businesses only care about profit. If it isn't in their interests to provide key and essential services they won't. That's problematic when those essential services are needed by so many. As such it is always better if the essentials are kept away from such vested interests.

The fact that you think that a corporate health system would be better for our State is scary to say the least.

dxhound2005 · 18-12-2010 04:32PM

RockinRolla wrote: »

I'm also in favour of privatising all public sectors.

I strongly feel individual companies and competition between them to get our money will deliver a better services for us, the paying consumers. Government are doing a ghastly job at it. Ive stated this numerous times and its a political belief of mine.

Privatise bus, rail, An Post, television and radio, schools and hospitals.

You forgot about roads.

PeakOutput · 18-12-2010 04:33PM

Jakkass wrote: »

I couldn't imagine much worse. Businesses only care about profit. If it isn't in their interests to provide key and essential services they won't. That's problematic when those essential services are needed by so many. As such it is always better if the essentials are kept away from such vested interests.

The fact that you think that a corporate health system would be better for our State is scary to say the least.

while i dont agree with a privatised health service it would still be better then the one we have right now

ballsymchugh · 18-12-2010 04:35PM

north korea prides itself on being the only country in the world with no income tax.

but then again the country is falling apart. the roads in their showpiece capital are in bits. people are paid with food stamps.

maybe we should do what they do. forge US currency and become the world's biggest exporter of heroin. that'd work!

irishguy · 18-12-2010 04:41PM

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Most of the state bodies and semi state bodies have too high of start up costs and this would just transfer on to the consumer.

Its mostly the Semi state bodies that are costly to setup. In the case of utilities and transport where there are high entry costs we could sell the customer facing business and lease the network to private bodies.
We could offer subsidies on certain services, as companies wont want to provide services to very rural areas.

Most of the work of the civil service could be put out to tender as its mostly admin. A lot could be computerised/automated.

You could vastly reduce public employees, but keep a core of very talented and well paid people to manage/oversee.

red menace · 18-12-2010 04:44PM

RockinRolla wrote: »

Don't throw a hissy over particulars in a bid to make your opinion look anymore legitimate, for goodness sake. Thats what the point of this thread is - to find out how we feel, as a nation. I used the Libertarian website because Irelands version is not up to scratch.

Get over it and if youve nothing constructive to say, then leave the thread.

My apologies for derailing your thread with my questions and concerns.
I'm voting No is that the kind of thing you wanted?

landsleaving · 18-12-2010 04:45PM

PeakOutput wrote: »

while i dont agree with a privatised health service it would still be better then the one we have right now

For the people who can afford private health care, the system we have now is pretty good.

Privatising everything, and so abolishing income tax means anyone below a certain wage level would be hit incredibly hard by accidents, be unable to get a decent education, etc. So it would just mean that any equality, little as there may be, that exists in society, would be destroyed within a generation or two. With only the already wealthy having access to education, it would mean everyone else is basically completely unable to achieve anything in society, no matter how hard they work or how intelligent they are. Then if they have the misfortune to get injured while working whatever dangerous and demeaning jobs are left, they lose everything they've earned trying to pay for healthcare.

What if the army and gardai are privatised too? They'd just protect the interests of the rich. Any opposition would be put down and the poor would just be marginalised completely.

Business has the goal of profit, and nothing as essential to the function of society as education and health should fall into the hands of those who would extort people for these services.

What a horrible world you want to create. 'Liberty' to provide for yourself and not be subject to the whims of government can only work in an equal society, which doesn't, and probably never will, exist.

irishguy · 18-12-2010 04:50PM

PeakOutput wrote: »

while i dont agree with a privatised health service it would still be better then the one we have right now

Why dont you?

The medical card scheme could be used for poorer people, but harsh penalties should be introduced for people caught defrauding the system.

This is kind of what Fine Gael are proposing i.e. all hospitals will receive funds only for the patients they treat so the better hospitals will thrive. They should go a step further and sell the hospitals also.

landsleaving · 18-12-2010 04:55PM

irishguy wrote: »

This is kind of what Fine Gael are proposing i.e. all hospitals will receive funds only for the patients they treat so the better hospitals will thrive. They should go a step further and sell the hospitals also.

Not having heard anything about this maybe you can clarify, but would that not mean that hospitals in less populated areas would receive less funds or be closed? I can see the logic I suppose and the health services need reform, but hosptials need to be close enough to patients. Even if there aren't that many to treat. Anyway maybe our future (identical to the last) overlords have already figured this out, as I say, I hadn't heard about it, so just curious.

Maybe someone should tell Fine Gael that quantity does not equal quality :P

We Should Abolish Income Tax

Are You In Favour Of Scrapping Income Tax? 71 votes

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