Would you take a Hit from a Non Airsoft Projectile?

Chuck the Buck · 15-12-2010 04:55PM

flashinbluelite wrote: »

love the idea of tomahawks and crossbows and arrows and all the other pieces of equipment available in Call of Duty

If I remember correctly you need a license for a crossbow over here (not sure if its based on power or just the fact that its a crossbow) so that would be a non runner anyway.

@Evilrobotshane:

Shane you know if the use of LARP bows is regulated over here (by a governing body or something) like in other countries or can any Joe Soap turn up at an event and use whatever bow he's brought with him? Do they need training/have to pass a test to say that they're safe and not a 'muppet' for want of a better word (and no I'm not aiming that comment at anyone)?

evilrobotshane · 15-12-2010 05:03PM

They do a pre-game inspection very similar to the way we structure chrono tests, on all LARP weapons (looking for different problems, obviously, depending on the type of weapon) (sorry for use of the word "weapon" by the way but it's how LARPers refer to them so it's pretty much what they're called). I'll see what I can find out about the safety rules for bows.

By the way, I should point out that a month ago I was at a game where I had an airsoft slingbacker and was beside someone with a LARP bow when we both shot at the same target (for repeatedly failing to answer a challenge - he turned out to be a friendly, but that learned him). What's being discussed here isn't a complete hypothesis, it's perfectly doable, and has already happened to some extent.

StevieGriff · 15-12-2010 05:03PM

J.D.R wrote: »

The one joule law does not have to do with speed, it has to do with energy.

A bow can theoretically fire at 500fps and still be under the 1 joule limit.

If I can remember correctly Force=Mass x acceleration

For airsoft 1 joule = 328fps x .2g

For a foam bow and arrow, it would be something different.

Not saying this makes it completely and entirely safe, but as this is currently theoretical, talk of it already exceeding the joule rating might be a bit hasty

A 30lb bow can output about 25 joules.. He's talking about Archery equipment not foam, if he wants to use a foam bow and arrow thats fine, can't do any damaged with a sticky cup arrow from a pound shop.

You'd be terrified of the injuries that can occur from im proper use of a bow, more than 75% of the injuries I've see weren't even accidents where someone was physically hit, they were from improper use and a lack of concern for safety.

And yes I was a little mean to the dude and I'm sorry for that but his little plan of using an Archery bow on human beings absolutely bewilders me. Even a kiddies 10lb bow with blunted arrows will at the very least damage peoples equipment (Googles..ect)

War Machine 539 · 15-12-2010 05:10PM

Although I do take umbridge at being refered to as an absolute moron, I do take on board what your saying, however if you took time to actually read what I am saying and not try to ram your opinion down our throats, it might be more enlightening.

I am talking about MODIFYING an existing archery bow, tuning down the draw, changing the tautness of the string and using SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED ARROWS suitable for LARP etc to shoot, whatever it takes to make it safe and feasible. If I was a ''an absolute moron'' I would have just done this without gathering the opinions and information to make it feasible and safe. I want to do this but will drop it if safety cant be assured.

Thanks a lot on this lads seriously! - Despite the abuse -

On the crossbow issue, as far as I know the controls are the same on a crossbow as on a handgun, due to the fact that it can be concealed while loaded. Not 100% on that mind you!

Stonecold can I ask if your a site runner? Can you explain reasoning etc if so! Not questioning you or being smart Im purely interested in the practicalities, insurance gaps etc. Also what site if you run one?

Again all feedback is highly appreciated!

War Machine 539 · 15-12-2010 05:16PM

I purely want the look of a tactical bow, I dont want to kill anyone! I will be nerfing the absolute hell out of it . . . . . . similar to tuning AEGs down with spring changes to meet our limits! Lads, despite the bewilderment, it makes sense! It can be done Im sure! Lads I FULLY UNDERSTAND A NON MODIFIED BOW CAN CAUSE HORRIFIC INJURY. Chuck, I am completely validating that point. Safety is my primary concern.

Puding · 15-12-2010 05:20PM

I'm sorry but personaly would not play at an event/site with these rules, not for safety but for realism I try and stay away from the COD effect

evilrobotshane · 15-12-2010 05:21PM

I asked a LARPer of my acquaintance and he says that bow safety regulations are up to the individual game organisers (equivalent to site-by-site in airsoft). The system he plays mostly limits the draw to 30 lbs (it's English) and there's rules on amount and type of padding on the arrows.

Before being allowed to use a bow, you have to take and pass an approximately half-hour training course with an instructor certified by the organisers. This details the types of shots you're allowed take and that sort of thing - seems analogous to how some British airsoft sites do higher-powered sniper rifles with minimum engagement distances. You get a little card to clear you to use it, and it gets a black mark if you break the bow rules - 3 marks and it's revoked.

There don't seem to be any legal issues with owning or importing this stuff - a LARPing bow-using Garda didn't ever mention anything to them, anyway.

I remember overhearing this the other day by the way, LARP crossbows technically are catapults or something rather than crossbows, because crossbows have a taut string and use the arms or whatever they're called for power, but LARP ones have inflexible arms and a bungee string which does the launching. So there.

Stercus Accidit · 15-12-2010 05:23PM

J.D.R wrote: »

The one joule law does not have to do with speed, it has to do with energy.

A bow can theoretically fire at 500fps and still be under the 1 joule limit.

If I can remember correctly Force=Mass x acceleration

For airsoft 1 joule = 328fps x .2g

For a foam bow and arrow, it would be something different.

Not saying this makes it completely and entirely safe, but as this is currently theoretical, talk of it already exceeding the joule rating might be a bit hasty

Just want to point out you have your formulae mixed up, a joule is a measure of energy, and energy is equal to half the mass times the velocity squared, and uses compatible metric units, fps is an obsolete unit but is the commonly know one, metres per second are used to calculate a joule, 328 fps being 100m/s.

The energy of a projectile fired at a consistent speed is directly proportional to its weight, so an arrow is not going to be sub 1 joule at any useable speed.

Chuck the Buck · 15-12-2010 05:25PM

Cheers for the reply Shane, I'd be interested to hear do the players have to wear any specific protective gear or is their fake armour
(if their wearing any) deemed to be ok and is there any minimum engagement distance?

@ War Machine:

What you talking about doing is fiddling with what ultimately is a lethal weapon in the wrong hands and converting it into a toy for want of a better word. I would imagine that it wouldn't be the easiest thing to do, or very safe for that matter.

If you're dropping the power of you're bow I assume you are going to change the limbs vs chopping bits off it or making the string loose? And if its tactical you're after would you be using a compound bow (the ones with the cams on the end of the limbs) you're going to use, would I be correct?

sliabh · 15-12-2010 05:27PM

J.D.R wrote: »

The one joule law does not have to do with speed, it has to do with energy.

A bow can theoretically fire at 500fps and still be under the 1 joule limit.

If I can remember correctly Force=Mass x acceleration

For airsoft 1 joule = 328fps x .2g

For a foam bow and arrow, it would be something different.

*sigh* mixing SI and Imperial units makes baby Jesus cry. So first stick to a consistent set of units, 328fps = 100m/s

Kinetic energy is = 0.5 x mass x velocity x velocity

1 joule = (0.5 x 0.2 x 100 x 100)/1000
Divide by 1000 as the Joule is based on Kilograms of mass not grams.

To fire at 500fps (153m/s) and still be under 1J, the projectile mass would have to be 0.085g, and I doubt you will find an arrow anywhere that light.

This is a little academic though as the 1J limit is specified in law for projectiles coming from a barrel. Above 1J it's a firearm and as well as needing a licence to have it, shooting someone with it would be assault (disclaimer IANAL).

This wouldn't be the case for an arrow, but you would probably want to talk to a real legal person for advice on when shooting someone with a bow goes from being fun to a chargable offence.

My view on the whole subject is that while in principle I am okay at being shot at by other "safe" objects, in practice the risk from muppets and numpties means I would object to it. I barely trust people with AEGs as it is. With airsoft guns there is standard (1J) and a mechanism in place to ensure they are safe (chronoing), anything else you introduce to a site would need to have a similar mechanism.

evilrobotshane · 15-12-2010 05:43PM

Chuck the Buck wrote: »

Cheers for the reply Shane, I'd be interested to hear do the players have to wear any specific protective gear or is their fake armour
(if their wearing any) deemed to be ok and is there any minimum engagement distance?

They don't have to wear any protection, the arrows are safe enough by themselves. There's no strict minimum engagement distance but there seems to be something similar to paintball's bang rule. Also, because the power is variable due to the nature of a bow, they can give it minimal welly for close-in shots. However, if being charged they're expected to get the bow out of the way because that could be risky.

Raphael · 15-12-2010 05:50PM

evilrobotshane wrote: »

there's rules on amount and type of padding on the arrows.

Having just wandered into an interesting looking thread, and knowing this stuff, the head is 2 inches in diameter, and has 2 and a half inches of foam on the end.

Edit: Found a Helpful Diagram(TM)

CpcRc · 15-12-2010 05:52PM

Chuck the Buck wrote: »

Whats a safe tip, one of those rubber blunts that people use for reenactment? You know, the ones that aren't really safe to use to hit people? Will you're cheap mesh face mask/glasses/goggles hold up to a direct hit? Will my ESS goggles hold up? Hell would your skull hold up intact to a direct hit?

No not a blunt tip, they are way too dangerous. I have my own archery set and I'd never even think of using one of those because they are much too dangerous. What I was saying was if there was an arrow made with a tip that would not be strong enough to hurt someone, not even accidentally in any conditions. One that wouldn't damage the safety equipment also. I'm talking about what would have to be made not what exists, to my knowledge anyway.

Sorry if it sounded like a blunt arrow, because they are not safe at all.

NakedDex · 15-12-2010 06:46PM

If anyone hit me with an arrow in a game I'd quite simply disregard it and return fire. Apart from the blatantly obvious safety issues, I'm there to play a military simulation skirmish, not sodding cowboys and Indians (sorry Doc, no cowboy loadout).
If I saw someone with a bow in a skirmish, I don't think I'd be able to control my laughter at the guy. If they threw a knife at me, I don't think I'd be able to control my temper.

On a further note, airsoft is difficult enough to sell to the PC brigade without having to attempt to justify "simulated throat slitting" too. I can just imagine that in the papers...

War Machine 539 · 15-12-2010 07:03PM

I have to laugh with the throat slitting thing . . . . . . there are guys who dress as terrorist\taliban\opfor fighters, whatever term floats your boat . . . . . . doesnt get into the papers. I doubt rubber knives do . . . . . and for the record I have seen many kits with fake knives attached to them.

How would throat slitting look in the papers . . . . . . . . as opposed to grown men parading around in Balaclavas, full face Shemaghs armed to the teeth. Simulating a kill with a knife is no different than simulating it with an AEG . . . . . . . is the Knife not classy enough?

For such a . . . . . . rough and ready hobby some of you seem terrified of being hit with a piece of foam . . . . . as opposed to a BB flying at 328 FPS.

ARROWS HAVE FOAM HEADS. Clarification.

Keep up the feedback, Its interesting!

Puding · 15-12-2010 07:20PM

War Machine 539 wrote: »

I have to laugh with the throat slitting thing . . . . . . there are guys who dress as terrorist\taliban\opfor fighters, whatever term floats your boat . . . . . . doesnt get into the papers. I doubt rubber knives do . . . . . and for the record I have seen many kits with fake knives attached to them.

How would throat slitting look in the papers . . . . . . . . as opposed to grown men parading around in Balaclavas, full face Shemaghs armed to the teeth. Simulating a kill with a knife is no different than simulating it with an AEG . . . . . . . is the Knife not classy enough?

For such a . . . . . . rough and ready hobby some of you seem terrified of being hit with a piece of foam . . . . . as opposed to a BB flying at 328 FPS.

ARROWS HAVE FOAM HEADS. Clarification. Keep up the feedback, Its interesting!

yes we dress as terrorist or us army at times for example, but in the end it comes down to context and know where that line is , you may create a terrorist impression for an event but you do not them go and make a fake jihad video or take pictures and post it on line

there is a world of difference between simulation of slitting someones throat and shooting someone with an aeg, airsoft is actually a non contact sport you introduce a act like that and you fundamentally change that, if you wanted to simulate cutting someones throat you would need restrain them as they would clearly try and move, and tbh you do not want to go down that road ( and it would just create even more aggression and the chance of a physical altercation )

as i said there is a line, we play a simulation of combat but it is important to remember its a simulation both both the purpose of respecting those that do put there lives on the line and for common sense, there are some things that should not be in the rule set and should be left out, just because you can simulate everything does not mean you do

War Machine 539 · 15-12-2010 07:35PM

Okay, I think my bad on this one . . . . . . Im not advocating performing the Physical act of simulating a knife kill . . . . . Im talking about throwing knives at people, or nerfed arrows, Lads I dont think Im getting my point across here, a hand on the back or a tap with the knife is fine, but throwing it, or a foam Tomahawk or any other ranged replica weapon could also constitute a kill, without contact. I apologise If I seem incoherent, Im trying to respond to all points made!

In the current world political climate, dressing as a terrorist may offend some . . . . . the line is different for all.

I agree . . . . slitting someones throat looks bad for the sport, however the fact can not be changed that there are violent elements to this sport. We use replica weapons for dogs sake.

As for the people putting their lives on the line, I have friends in the defense forces, No one asked them to do it. I respect them for doing it, but no more than I respect the bin man, teacher. They chose that profession knowing full well there lives are on the line. Tell that to the video game producers, gun manufacturers, indeed Airsoft manufacturers!

Leftyflip · 15-12-2010 07:39PM

They're not weapons, the sport isn't violent, etc, etc...

War Machine 539 · 15-12-2010 07:41PM

Leftyflip wrote: »

They're not weapons, the sport isn't violent, etc, etc...

Point in case. Again context and common sense, Thank you lefty!

Leftyflip · 15-12-2010 07:53PM

War Machine 539 wrote: »

Point in case. Again context and common sense, Thank you lefty!

Talking bout AEGs and airsoft devices, not bows and arrows.

War Machine 539 · 15-12-2010 07:54PM

I agree, but by the same rationale neither are what Im suggesting!

Leftyflip · 15-12-2010 08:06PM

I'd be interested to know the forces involved with these throwing knives, all it takes is a numpty to fúck someone's shít up, and if I ended up getting a tooth knocked out or something with one (which may or may not be possible), I'd be putting them up for assault, there'll be a cold day in hell when I sign a waiver to let Johnny Numbnuts throw a rubber knife at me...

Stone.cold · 15-12-2010 08:07PM

War Machine 539 wrote: »

I agree, but by the same rationale neither are what Im suggesting!

to answer your earlier question yes I do run a site and if I can ask u with reference to your quote above if u came to site with ure bow & throwing knifes I can chrono aeg's & pistol to make sure there safe how do I know what ure carryin is safe??

NakedDex · 15-12-2010 08:08PM

Throwing knives? Why? I don't get it? You have a rifle with, on average, a thousand rounds of ammo carried at any one time, plus a pistol (usually with a spare mag). Some people even have two pistols, or a launcher on the rifle. Or a shotgun.
Why on earth would you suddenly need something capable of a ranged hit after all that? And don't say "because it's stealthy" or "it's quicker". If you're truly concerned with quiet, ranged hits, you'd get an NBB pistol like the TM Mk23 or the Maruzen P99, both of which are infinitely quicker, more accurate and more useful than a plastic knife.
People only want these things "because they're cool". CoD has a lot to answer for.
Rubber or not, they still have far more potential to cause actual injury - especially if thrown - than a bb ever could.

Also, yes, there's a huge image issue with it. Even if you don't do a throat slitting action, it's still a serious shift in game mechanic and appearance and one which looks vastly different to an outsider. I don't even agree with carrying the fake knives personally, but I won't stop anyone doing so as long as they don't draw then.

War Machine 539 · 15-12-2010 08:08PM

Im thinking foam dude . . . . . . rubber would harden in the cold!

War Machine 539 · 15-12-2010 08:16PM

Im simply forwarding the idea that they would add a different dynamic to some games . . . . . . Is dreaming of evolving things a little so bad!

On the question of the knives, bow and chrono.

Almost Identical chronos are used to measure the FPS of Archery Arrows.
The throwing knives are made of the same foam that preschool mats are made of. I doubt unless you fired them from the back of a Jet Engine they would hurt in anyway. Common sense applie on that one.

Curiously you never mentioned which site you run. $:\$

Im not a doubter, I would just like to know!

As for the fact that there are massive amounts of equipment out there - Completely agree, however I dont like most of whats available, and whats so wrong with achieving a hit through different means?

Why settle?

Theres more than one way to skin a cat!

NakedDex · 15-12-2010 08:18PM

Exactly how much do you think it'll harden in ambient air? I think you underestimate the materials thermal properties.
You also overestimate the flight ability of a piece of foam too. If you think you'll be able to accurately throw an item comprised completely of foam for any range further than, oh, about three feet, you've got a rude awakening coming.

Anyway, I don't care what the material is. It could be made of swan feathers and angels tears for all I care, it wouldn't change the look.

War Machine 539 · 15-12-2010 08:20PM

NakedDex wrote: »

Rubber or not, they still have far more potential to cause actual injury - especially if thrown - than a bb ever could.

Also, yes, there's a huge image issue with it. Even if you don't do a throat slitting action, it's still a serious shift in game mechanic and appearance and one which looks vastly different to an outsider. I don't even agree with carrying the fake knives personally, but I won't stop anyone doing so as long as they don't draw then.

Your going to have to explain this because its nonsensical! I think the assault rifles and grown men in full on military fatiques would take precedence to a foam knife.
You cant honestly say a foam knife is more dangerous then a BB.

NakedDex · 15-12-2010 08:26PM

War Machine 539 wrote: »

...unless you fired them from the back of a Jet Engine they would hurt in anyway. Common sense applie on that one.

As for the fact that there are massive amounts of equipment out there - Completely agree, however I dont like most of whats available, and whats so wrong with achieving a hit through different means?

Why settle?

Theres more than one way to skin a cat!

Hi, the physics of these things is kind of my job since I actually work with jet engines. It'll "hurt" at a lot less, I assure you.

Also, you're right. There are other options. Let's meet at a skirmish. I'll bring a sack of American footballs and nail you from ten yards with them because that'll count as a hit. It's ok, Ice Cube did it in Three Kings with a helicopter, it's totally a military tactic.

See the issue?

Stone.cold · 15-12-2010 08:29PM

War Machine 539 wrote: »

Curiously you never mentioned which site you run. $:\$

Im not a doubter, I would just like to know!

Ok i am the chairman of the midlands airsoft club & i run our site shadowlands, u didnt answer my question how can you prove to me that lobbing a knife at someone is not going to hurt them hurt my insurance or the reputation of my site

Would you take a Hit from a Non Airsoft Projectile?

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