Is Irish a Dead Language?

deise go deo · 08-12-2010 04:26PM

sandmanporto wrote: »

i never knew they spoke irish in the north. I just wish irish sounded nicer. It doesnt sound nice when spoken. Sometimes it sounds like the person has a phlegm buildup like grainne seoige and its annoying for the listener. Again its just my view and everybody thinks differently.

There is a strong Revival of Irish in NI at the moment.
Especially in Belfast and Derry

scientific1982 · 08-12-2010 08:47PM

sandmanporto wrote: »

i never knew they spoke irish in the north. I just wish irish sounded nicer. It doesnt sound nice when spoken. Sometimes it sounds like the person has a phlegm buildup like grainne seoige and its annoying for the listener. Again its just my view and everybody thinks differently.

Its widely spoken in the nationalist community in the north. We have students to the Donegal gaeltacht every year and they would put 90% of the people in the republic to shame. As for it not sounding nice when spoken, thats because the majority of Irish spoken in the republic is book Irish. The Irish spoken in the Donegal gaeltacht is the most pure.

Mike 1972 · 08-12-2010 09:32PM

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

What I cannot understand, Hebrew was almost extinct until the state of Israel was formed in 1947. It is now their primary language and is thriving. Surely we could do better than that. .

Because there was a widespread support (actual support as opposed to lip service) for the revival of the language amongst Zionist settelers coupled with the fact that those settling in Israel did (and still do) come from dozens of different countries and it was virtually essential to have an agreed common language.

There has never been the same need nor level of support in Ireland.

deise go deo wrote: »

What do you mean? People do have the Right to use Irish when conducting their business with the state.

From the Official languages act 2003

I was speaking about "rights" as opposed to legal entitlements which should never have been granted in the first place.

Krusader · 08-12-2010 09:57PM

Mike 1972 wrote: »

I was speaking about "rights" as opposed to legal entitlements which should never have been granted in the first place.

Ah, sure we all know what ye think of people's rights up there

Mike 1972 · 08-12-2010 10:02PM

^^ :rolleyes: ^^

Arts student · 09-12-2010 12:22AM

deise go deo wrote: »

Many people do not feel confident speaking Irish, The fear I have come across is that, If I try to use the Cúpla focal then they will think I have fluent Irish and will speak in Irish to me putting me in the awkward situation of having to admit I dont have fluent Irish.

So they will just avoid it altogether and use English. If you tried using Greetings in Irish, Fáilte, Dia Duit etc you may have more success.

You do get that but I think the perception is much more common than the reality,
Most Irish speakers I have met are delighted when someone makes the effort to use some Irish.

Is Fearr Gaeilge Briste ná Béarla cliste:)

I find this ironic considering that I went to an Irish primary school and am well versed in the language. I honestly dont know what my parents were thinking when they choose such a school because I honestly haven't used a word of it since I left primary school, nor do my parents or grandparents ever speak it. I went to an Irish primary school and to be brutally honest with you what I learned was absolutely useless to me in the real world.

Like it or lump, 99% of Irish people couldn't give a toss about the language. I also think it's time to remove all the silly barriers imposed on people with relation to jobs on people who can't speak Irish. I can honestly say that had there not been a Gaelic revival in the late 19th century, that that same 99% would probably not even be aware of such a language haven ever existed.

But then again the people are not interested in learning it so it's time to start living in the real world and accept it. If the language makes a come back then fair enough, but top-down legalism whether it be requiring to learn Irish for some jobs, or enforcing the learning of Irish in primary and secondary schools has done the language a great disservice. In fact I think that it makes many people grow to hate the language, so when you think about it the way the governments of the last 90 years have gone about promoting the language has been counterproductive.

Perhaps the biggest irony of all is that there were more Irish speakers in 1900 when we were a part of the United Kingdom despite the fact that the language had no official status. Despite decades of been an official language of the state, the language has continually declined. It's time for some of the more enthusiastic of the language movement to take their heads out of the sand and cop onto to the one simple truth - that Irish has had it's day. In fact it had it's day over a century ago and it isn't coming back. And to be honest I don't know anybody who cares about it. Sure you get people, and in particular politicians using the "cupla focal" almost patronisingly - but a large scale revival is never going to be viable.

I think part of the problem goes back to De Valera's time really and his attempts to convert Ireland into some sort of Gaelic Disneyland free of the wicked vices and influence of American and British culture and norms etc.

Arts student · 09-12-2010 12:36AM

Deleted User wrote: »

I see that for many of our more vocal posters, there's a push to kill anything they see as irrational. I see it with the anti-religious snarks, and I see it here with the anti-Gaeilge snarks. I give the same answer to both camps...learn to live with it.

I'm reasonably religious, and my grandmother is very religious for instance. Yet she can't stand the language. What's your point?

deise go deo · 09-12-2010 03:42AM

Arts student wrote: »

I find this ironic considering that I went to an Irish primary school and am well versed in the language.

What is Ironic about my post?

I honestly dont know what my parents were thinking when they choose such a school because I honestly haven't used a word of it since I left primary school, nor do my parents or grandparents ever speak it. I went to an Irish primary school and to be brutally honest with you what I learned was absolutely useless to me in the real world.

How is knowing a second language useless? There are quite a few jobs available for Irish speakers, just because you chose not to use Irish dosent mean it is useless.

Like it or lump, 99% of Irish people couldn't give a toss about the language. I also think it's time to remove all the silly barriers imposed on people with relation to jobs on people who can't speak Irish. I can honestly say that had there not been a Gaelic revival in the late 19th century, that that same 99% would probably not even be aware of such a language haven ever existed.

Did you know that 73% of all statistics are made up? I wounder if your 99% claim falls into that category?

But then again the people are not interested in learning it so it's time to start living in the real world and accept it. If the language makes a come back then fair enough, but top-down legalism whether it be requiring to learn Irish for some jobs, or enforcing the learning of Irish in primary and secondary schools has done the language a great disservice. In fact I think that it makes many people grow to hate the language, so when you think about it the way the governments of the last 90 years have gone about promoting the language has been counterproductive.

I agree, the poor curriculum in schools and lack of actual services provided by the state was very counter productive. 20 years ago the situation was basically You have to learn Irish, but we wont teach it to you well, And if you do manage to learn Irish then you wont be able to use it with the state. Fortunately things are beginning to change.

Perhaps the biggest irony of all is that there were more Irish speakers in 1900 when we were a part of the United Kingdom despite the fact that the language had no official status. Despite decades of been an official language of the state, the language has continually declined.

Indeed it has, But lets examine why a bit more closely, When Britain was in power in Ireland the state had very little direct influence on peoples daily lives, Almost the only contact the average person would have with the state was through the RIC. After independance Irish was made the First official language of the state but the state dident reflect that in its actions, Since independance the role of the state and peoples contact with it has grown enormausly, The state has been one of the main anglasising influences on the Gaelthachts,
The state has not even tried to implement a policy for reviving the Irish language, To claim in the light of this that Irish not being revived is some kind of proof that no one wants it is ridiculous, There are far more reasonable explanations.

It's time for some of the more enthusiastic of the language movement to take their heads out of the sand and cop onto to the one simple truth - that Irish has had it's day. In fact it had it's day over a century ago and it isn't coming back. And to be honest I don't know anybody who cares about it. Sure you get people, and in particular politicians using the "cupla focal" almost patronisingly - but a large scale revival is never going to be viable.

Sorry but there is no reason to assume that, If you can back up your claim please do but I don't think you can, The one sector of Irish language promotion that has been handled correctly, The Gaelscoil movement has shown the potential for growth In the Irish language, Outside the state, the Culturlanns in NI show the same potential when it is managed correctly.

I think part of the problem goes back to De Valera's time really and his attempts to convert Ireland into some sort of Gaelic Disneyland free of the wicked vices and influence of American and British culture and norms etc.

Ah DeV, He is never far from these debates, Its funny how one side seam to think that bringing up his name is some how a valid argument, Personally I prefer to dwell in the present.

sandmanporto · 09-12-2010 04:34AM

deise go deo wrote: »

What is Ironic about my post?

How is knowing a second language useless? There are quite a few jobs available for Irish speakers, just because you chose not to use Irish dosent mean it is useless.

Did you know that 73% of all statistics are made up? I wounder if your 99% claim falls into that category?

I agree, the poor curriculum in schools and lack of actual services provided by the state was very counter productive. 20 years ago the situation was basically You have to learn Irish, but we wont teach it to you well, And if you do manage to learn Irish then you wont be able to use it with the state. Fortunately things are beginning to change.

Indeed it has, But lets examine why a bit more closely, When Britain was in power in Ireland the state had very little direct influence on peoples daily lives, Almost the only contact the average person would have with the state was through the RIC. After independance Irish was made the First official language of the state but the state dident reflect that in its actions, Since independance the role of the state and peoples contact with it has grown enormausly, The state has been one of the main anglasising influences on the Gaelthachts,
The state has not even tried to implement a policy for reviving the Irish language, To claim in the light of this that Irish not being revived is some kind of proof that no one wants it is ridiculous, There are far more reasonable explanations.

Sorry but there is no reason to assume that, If you can back up your claim please do but I don't think you can, The one sector of Irish language promotion that has been handled correctly, The Gaelscoil movement has shown the potential for growth In the Irish language, Outside the state, the Culturlanns in NI show the same potential when it is managed correctly.

Ah DeV, He is never far from these debates, Its funny how one side seam to think that bringing up his name is some how a valid argument, Personally I prefer to dwell in the present.

I really do admire your passion for the language. I wish I had the same passion and interest. It is a language that I have no time for but I wouldnt have minded being able to learn it. I got 3%(ordinary) in Irish for my junior cert mocks, yet got 60 percent in higher German.
I got angry at Irish because of that!

sandmanporto · 09-12-2010 04:38AM

Arts student wrote: »

I'm reasonably religious, and my grandmother is very religious for instance. Yet she can't stand the language. What's your point?

You do sound a bit bitter and wanting to hit at something in fairness...
its just your tone! thats the way i picked up on it arts

deise go deo · 09-12-2010 01:27PM

sandmanporto wrote: »

I really do admire your passion for the language. I wish I had the same passion and interest. It is a language that I have no time for but I wouldnt have minded being able to learn it. I got 3%(ordinary) in Irish for my junior cert mocks, yet got 60 percent in higher German.
I got angry at Irish because of that!

Dont blame the language, blame the department of Education.;)

I never liked Irish in school, Everything about it seamed pointless, Not because of the language but because I knew that what was being done wasent even close to a good way to teach a language. Most of my spoken Irish was learned after school with freinds in a Ciorcal Comhrá(Conversation Group)

If you wanted to learn Irish there are plenty of opportunities around the place, (None of which involve Peig, or poetry)

Ciorcal Comhrá You never know, you might like it.

twinQuins · 09-12-2010 02:17PM

Crosáidí wrote: »

We're talking 'bout government reports/forms not newspapers, publishing a report in .pdf would save printing costs in both languages
If they are junk mail booklets should they be printed at all then. And I read the Irish part, just because you don't, it doesn't mean no one does

Do you need to, though? Having every official publication in Irish and English just strikes me as being typical bureaucratic nonsense - filing forms simply for the sake of doing it, rather than any practical need for it.

deise go deo · 10-12-2010 03:08AM

Morkarleth wrote: »

Do you need to, though? Having every official publication in Irish and English just strikes me as being typical bureaucratic nonsense - filing forms simply for the sake of doing it, rather than any practical need for it.

Where do people get this notion that everything is translated into Irish, There is a list of 5 different things that are translated into Irish, Thats it.

Do you Need to be sent all the documents you get in English, How much of the Documents produced in English are really Needed?

So why dose Irish come in for all the criticism then?

humberklog · 10-12-2010 03:29AM

deise go deo wrote: »

Where do people get this notion that everything is translated into Irish, There is a list of 5 different things that are translated into Irish, Thats it.

Do you Need to be sent all the documents you get in English, How much of the Documents produced in English are really Needed?

So why dose Irish come in for all the criticism then?

Capail = Horse
Ull = Apple
Laothroidi= Balls
Geansai= Jumper
Leaba= Bed.

Excuse the Irish spellings as I never did it in school, but is this the 5?

Einhard · 10-12-2010 03:35AM

http://yle.fi/radio1/tiede/nuntii_latini/

http://eclassics.ning.com/

http://latindiscussion.com/forum/

http://www.textkit.com/greek-latin-forum/index.php?sid=50b4723a0e6a12c3a13cebf0c321a3a6

http://www.youtube.com/user/ScorpioMartianus

http://latinum.mypodcast.com/

http://www.latinmassireland.org/thelatinmass/latinmass_audio.html

http://www.frcoulter.com/latin/latinlover/index.html

http://www.latinlanguage.us/blog/index.php?blog=2&p=338&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1

http://yle.fi/radio1/tiede/nuntii_latini/

Stained Class · 10-12-2010 03:38AM

Is Irish a Dead Language?

Well our poll seems to suggest that this is the case.

Job done!:cool:

Mardy Bum · 10-12-2010 03:53AM

Language is a means of communication and a carrier of culture.

Brian Friel said in 1973 we were becoming more like East Americans rather than West Britons culturally every year.

This thread proves he was right.

Einhard · 10-12-2010 03:58AM

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Language is a means of communication and a carrier of culture.

Brian Friel said in 1973 we were becoming more like East Americans rather than West Britons culturally every year.

This thread proves he was right.

If we're going to be culturally assimilated, who cares if it's the Brits or the Yanks who do it?

Mardy Bum · 10-12-2010 04:11AM

Einhard wrote: »

If we're going to be culturally assimilated, who cares if it's the Brits or the Yanks who do it?

The geographical region is irrelevant to the sad fact.

It's not cultural assimilation it's cultural suicide. Ireland has only had net migration from the 00s and now it has returned to emigration.

Einhard · 10-12-2010 04:33AM

Mardy Bum wrote: »

The geographical region is irrelevant to the sad fact.

It's not cultural assimilation it's cultural suicide. Ireland has only had net migration from the 00s and now it has returned to emigration.

Meh, cultures change. It's the way of things. Irish people added greatly to American and British culture; immigrants will no doubt do the same in this country. Anyway, culture doesn;t have to be specifically ethnic or national for it to have resonance.

deise go deo · 10-12-2010 03:26PM

humberklog wrote: »

Capail = Horse
Ull = Apple
Laothroidi= Balls
Geansai= Jumper
Leaba= Bed.

Excuse the Irish spellings as I never did it in school, but is this the 5?

No, 5 different types of document. Its all in the Offical Languages act 2003

Einhard. Dose Latin have communities of native speakers?

Mardy Bum · 10-12-2010 04:45PM

Einhard wrote: »

Meh, cultures change. It's the way of things. Irish people added greatly to American and British culture; immigrants will no doubt do the same in this country. Anyway, culture doesn;t have to be specifically ethnic or national for it to have resonance.

It doesn't have to be specifically ethic or national no but a specific culture is transmitted through the particularities of the language of a specific community with a specific history.

If there is no specificity of culture then the country has lost its culture. It just becomes a ring in the ladder of globalisation.

The loss of culture has nothing to do with immigrants so I don't know why you keep bringing them up.

CorkMan · 10-12-2010 04:50PM

If they taught the language properly in school, there would be much more Irish speakers. Instead they don't and thus there isn't.

dlofnep · 10-12-2010 05:08PM

It's very much alive for me. I use it on a daily basis. For the most part - it's not a living language for alot of people in Ireland. Which is a shame, but I see that changing in the near future with the pending 20 year language strategy - but also, the increase in use of the language, and visibility of it in media and society. It's not there yet, but it's getting there.

Einhard · 11-12-2010 06:49AM

deise go deo wrote: »

No, 5 different types of document. Its all in the Offical Languages act 2003

Einhard. Dose Latin have communities of native speakers?

I'd say the number of people in the world, excluding clergy, who can speak Latin to any great extent, could be counted on your fingers and toes. It's practically impossible to achieve fluency when there's no one to speak a language with. There's lots of people though who can read and write Latin reasonably weel, and there's been a great surge in interest over the past few years.

Mardy Bum wrote: »

It doesn't have to be specifically ethic or national no but a specific culture is transmitted through the particularities of the language of a specific community with a specific history.

If there is no specificity of culture then the country has lost its culture. It just becomes a ring in the ladder of globalisation.

The loss of culture has nothing to do with immigrants so I don't know why you keep bringing them up.

Well, first off all I don't keep bringing immigrants up. Don't know where you got that idea from. The reason I brought it up in this instance was in response to your mentioning of net migration as diluting Irish culture. My point is that, rather than diluting it, they transform and enrich it.

Also, I don't think a peoples' culture is as intrisically linked with their language as you make out. Irish culture is doing remarkably well at the moment, and the fact that it is not disseminated solely through one linguistic medium means that is accessible to a far greater population. It's the same with the Classical cultures. It's arguable that Greek and Roman literature and ideas are more relevant and discussed now than they have been at any other time since the fall of Rome. The decline in the use of Classical tongues actually corresponded with an increase in an interest in what they spoke off. Indeed, the Renaissance saw a huge surge in interest in Classical ideas and systems of thought, and yet a move away from Greek and Latin, and a deliberate focus on the vernacular.

So, I don't share your belief that a decline in language inevitably means an inexorable decline towards destruction in the culture it manifests.

Mardy Bum · 11-12-2010 04:05PM

Einhard wrote: »

I'd say the number of people in the world, excluding clergy, who can speak Latin to any great extent, could be counted on your fingers and toes. It's practically impossible to achieve fluency when there's no one to speak a language with. There's lots of people though who can read and write Latin reasonably weel, and there's been a great surge in interest over the past few years.

Well, first off all I don't keep bringing immigrants up. Don't know where you got that idea from. The reason I brought it up in this instance was in response to your mentioning of net migration as diluting Irish culture. My point is that, rather than diluting it, they transform and enrich it.

Also, I don't think a peoples' culture is as intrisically linked with their language as you make out. Irish culture is doing remarkably well at the moment, and the fact that it is not disseminated solely through one linguistic medium means that is accessible to a far greater population. It's the same with the Classical cultures. It's arguable that Greek and Roman literature and ideas are more relevant and discussed now than they have been at any other time since the fall of Rome. The decline in the use of Classical tongues actually corresponded with an increase in an interest in what they spoke off. Indeed, the Renaissance saw a huge surge in interest in Classical ideas and systems of thought, and yet a move away from Greek and Latin, and a deliberate focus on the vernacular.

So, I don't share your belief that a decline in language inevitably means an inexorable decline towards destruction in the culture it manifests.

Different people, different opinions.

If you read some postcolonial theory to get a better under standing I think you will change your opinion.*

Ngugi Wa Thiong'o, "Decolonising the Mind: The Politics of Language in African Literature"
Declan Kiberd, "Inventing Ireland" (1995)

Good reads.

*No trying to be dismissive or condescending

wellboy76 · 11-12-2010 04:14PM

A lot of zombies teach it alright

Mike 1972 · 12-12-2010 01:10AM

Einhard wrote: »

I'd say the number of people in the world, excluding clergy, who can speak Latin to any great extent, could be counted on your fingers and toes. .

A lot of older people would remember doing latin in School. Quite a few of the more fuddy duddy Grammar schools in the UK still teach it but I digress.......

deise go deo · 12-12-2010 01:16AM

Mike 1972 wrote: »

A lot of older people would remember doing latin in School. Quite a few of the more fuddy duddy Grammar schools in the UK still teach it but I digress.......

Indeed, there are quite a few people who know it to some degree, but they are not Native speakers. That is why Latin is a dead language and Irish is a living language.

12-12-2010 02:33AM

A common sound in houses all around Dublin!

Mauris feugiat accumsan ante uestra egressus ludere amicis!

Not :pac:

Is Irish a Dead Language?

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