Pucliic Sector Functions that could be done by private sector

theghost · 06-12-2010 05:03AM

Are you sure you mean the public service and not the civil service?

How would you feel if the public service - i.e. the public hospitals, the Gardai, the schools staffed by teachers paid by the government, and the fire and ambulance service were privatised? In other words, you have to pay for your childrens' education from the start of primary school to whichever level of education you wish your children to obtain. You have to pay for a fire service to come out and put out the fire that is destroying your house, pay to have any injured family members taken by ambulance to hospital and pay for all hospital treatment incurred by those family members?

Sleepy · 06-12-2010 11:25AM

Driver Licence Testing - the backlog was ploughed through by the private testing guys and you can guarantee they were cheaper on a cost-per-test basis than the union lackeys who've let the backlog build back up since the government decided to cancel the private contract rather than do the sensible thing and make the now proven-to-be inefficient testers redundant and extend the private contract.

I.T. networks and sysadmin. When the likes of Bank of Ireland (once a banking sector technology leader) out-source most of their IT to the likes of HP, you know it makes commercial sense. How much duplication of effort happens amongst the various government departments, quangos and local authorities? Deploying a software update to 10,000 machines doesn't take any more manpower than deploying it to 100. Likewise, think of the potential savings of pooling resources such as ERP systems to handle multiple departments in a single implementation. You might not quite half the costs, but two thirds to three quarters the cost of two separate projects should be easily achievable.

Processing of Drivers License Applications, Passports, Student Grant Applications etc. could all be handled more efficiently in the private sector. Admin staff in PS are paid *vastly* more than their private sector equivalents and thats *before* you factor in their pension entitlements, job-sharing and other perks which cause inefficiency.

Centralised debt collection to specialist companies would surely improve the woeful Rates Collection levels in Local Authorities and no doubt again, would be carried out by cheaper staff.

Yes all of this will be painful for existing public servants. The human cost would be massive. However, unless we realise that it's in the entire nations interest to spend as little as possible on running the country and focusing most of the best people on the private sector where they can create wealth for this country in export-led enterprises we're never going to dig our way out of this mess. By all means we need to keep a few smart people in the Public Sector, particularly in places like the Department of Finance (I'd actually go so far as to say we should be ear-marking promising candidates for these roles from Leaving Cert results and sponsoring their educations in Economics and Finance areas to Masters level on condition they spend the first 5 - 10 years of their career in the DOF).

sarumite · 06-12-2010 12:02PM

theghost wrote: »

Are you sure you mean the public service and not the civil service?

How would you feel if the public service - i.e. the public hospitals, the Gardai, the schools staffed by teachers paid by the government, and the fire and ambulance service were privatised? In other words, you have to pay for your childrens' education from the start of primary school to whichever level of education you wish your children to obtain. You have to pay for a fire service to come out and put out the fire that is destroying your house, pay to have any injured family members taken by ambulance to hospital and pay for all hospital treatment incurred by those family members?

That doesn't necessarily have to be what is meant by privitisation. You can tender contracts to run certain services.....and have the government/tax payer pick up the tab.

spank_inferno · 06-12-2010 12:13PM

theghost wrote: »

How would you feel if the public service - i.e. the public hospitals, the Gardai, the schools staffed by teachers paid by the government, and the fire and ambulance service were privatised? In other words, you have to pay for your childrens' education from the start of primary school to whichever level of education you wish your children to obtain. You have to pay for a fire service to come out and put out the fire that is destroying your house, pay to have any injured family members taken by ambulance to hospital and pay for all hospital treatment incurred by those family members?

We already pay for most of that, and in principle I have no problem if it was all done so.

if one day you unfortunately need to call on the Fire Brigade, you will the following week see the cost that already exists for using this service.

20Cent · 06-12-2010 12:22PM

The private sector is there to make profit thats the only concern. This does not necessarily mean it will provide the best service just to one that makes most money for it. Thats fine in most situations but there are some in which it is not.

Why would a for profit company run bus routes that are unprofitable, collect rubbish from ghost estates, connect rural homes to electricity or broadband when it is not profitable for them to do so.
Do we really want O2 customers to have fast tracked access to passports in special deals. There are security issues about passports and drivers licenses. In the US I read about a house that burnt down because the owner had not paid a sub to the local fire brigade. We really want that?

The UK had a very good train system until it got chopped up and privatised. What would there be to stop a private ESB milking customers. Can't pay tough, a pensioner tough, made unemployed tough your cut off.

Gumbo · 06-12-2010 12:30PM

Sleepy wrote: »

Processing of Drivers License Applications, Passports, Student Grant Applications etc. could all be handled more efficiently in the private sector. Admin staff in PS are paid *vastly* more than their private sector equivalents and thats *before* you factor in their pension entitlements, job-sharing and other perks which cause inefficiency.

is this done in any other country?
issuing of official documents by the private sctor?

curious.

Spudmonkey · 06-12-2010 12:31PM

20Cent wrote: »

The private sector is there to make profit thats the only concern. This does not necessarily mean it will provide the best service just to one that makes most money for it. Thats fine in most situations but there are some in which it is not.

Why would a for profit company run bus routes that are unprofitable, collect rubbish from ghost estates, connect rural homes to electricity or broadband when it is not profitable for them to do so.
Do we really want O2 customers to have fast tracked access to passports in special deals. There are security issues about passports and drivers licenses. In the US I read about a house that burnt down because the owner had not paid a sub to the local fire brigade. We really want that?

The UK had a very good train system until it got chopped up and privatised. What would there be to stop a private ESB milking customers. Can't pay tough, a pensioner tough, made unemployed tough your cut off.

Either that or de-unionize the public sector and ensure that we get better value for money. Ensure that they don't have the authority over my ability to leave the country, refuse to collect my rubbish or deliver me to out-of-the way places. I'd almost prefer no service to a shoddy one. At least my pocket isn't being riffled then.

20Cent · 06-12-2010 12:36PM

Spudmonkey wrote: »

Either that or de-unionize the public and ensure that we get better value for money. Ensure that they don't have the authority over my ability to leave the country, refuse to collect my rubbish or deliver me to out-of-the way places. I'd almost prefer no service to a shoddy one. At least my pocket isn't being riffled then.

Don't see how you could de unionise. Ban collective bargaining? Pretty extreme and probably illegal. Stand up to unions, have politicians who will do it. Its the Govs decision at the end of the day.

sarumite · 06-12-2010 12:43PM

kceire wrote: »

is this done in any other country?
issuing of official documents by the private sctor?

curious.

Technically they wouldn't be issuing...simply running the service that issues the documents. IT would still be government issued.

Spudmonkey · 06-12-2010 12:43PM

Aren't the guards forbidden to engage in industrial action?? Striking at least

sarumite · 06-12-2010 12:45PM

Spudmonkey wrote: »

Aren't the guards forbidden to engage in industrial action??

That doesn't mean they can't have the "blue flu" though :pac:

Sleepy · 06-12-2010 12:45PM

kceire wrote: »

is this done in any other country?
issuing of official documents by the private sctor?

curious.

Honeestly, I don't know. I see no good reason why it couldn't be done though. Private sector firms deal with Public Data every day and security is maintained via non-disclosure agreements, staff security clearances etc.

I think virtually all but the most libertarian of us can agree that certain areas such as law enforcement, education etc. are undesirable to privatise. Privatisation does not have to mean shipping out every aspect of a PS body though. For example, at present TD's are not permitted to change the time on their clocks when daylight savings changes occur as to do so would spark a demarcation issue with the OPW.

There's no good reason why the OPW should be need more than a handful of administration staff to handle the maintenance work for public sector buildings with private sector contractors bidding to provide the work at the lowest cost to the exchequer.

I'm sure similar arguments could be made for cleaning contracts for hospitals within the HSE, Electrical work within Local Authority buildings, Network Administration within various Departments of Government, Website development and hosting for all public sector web presences. The sheer scale of these contracts when packaged together would enable companies to bid extremely competitively for them.

Sleepy · 06-12-2010 12:49PM

20Cent wrote: »

Don't see how you could de unionise. Ban collective bargaining? Pretty extreme and probably illegal. Stand up to unions, have politicians who will do it. Its the Govs decision at the end of the day.

Is collective bargaining enshrined in our constitution? I doubt it tbh.

Capping a union official's salary to the median of their members' salary might be a quicker way to do it though! Another could be a life-time ban from holding any public position either representative or directorial for anyone who has been on the payroll of a union.

Welease · 06-12-2010 01:05PM

20Cent wrote: »

The private sector is there to make profit thats the only concern. This does not necessarily mean it will provide the best service just to one that makes most money for it. Thats fine in most situations but there are some in which it is not.

Why would a for profit company run bus routes that are unprofitable, collect rubbish from ghost estates, connect rural homes to electricity or broadband when it is not profitable for them to do so.
Do we really want O2 customers to have fast tracked access to passports in special deals. There are security issues about passports and drivers licenses. In the US I read about a house that burnt down because the owner had not paid a sub to the local fire brigade. We really want that?

The UK had a very good train system until it got chopped up and privatised. What would there be to stop a private ESB milking customers. Can't pay tough, a pensioner tough, made unemployed tough your cut off.

You (and others) are confusing privatising services with outsourcing the work to the private sector.. They are completely different propositions...

True.. a private sector company may not want to privatise a loss making route (unless they could convert it).. but they might be willing to be paid by the PS/CoCo to perform those duties..

And those duties could (not will!) be done cheaper by a lean competitive company who's expertise is in that area of business.

Paulzx · 06-12-2010 01:55PM

spank_inferno wrote: »

if one day you unfortunately need to call on the Fire Brigade, you will the following week see the cost that already exists for using this service.

Differing charges exist across each Co Council. Some don't charge anything.

However, anywhere that charges do exist they do not in any way cover the cost of providing the service. If the actual base cost was charged the bill would be astronomical.

If you wished to privatise the Fire Service it will obviously be run as a for profit service by a private company. The charges that would need to be levied to gain a profit would not be affordable to the public.

Certain services need to be provided by the state as there is simply a requirement for them irrespective of the cost.

Welease · 06-12-2010 03:36PM

Paulzx wrote: »

Differing charges exist across each Co Council. Some don't charge anything.

However, anywhere that charges do exist they do not in any way cover the cost of providing the service. If the actual base cost was charged the bill would be astronomical.

If you wished to privatise the Fire Service it will obviously be run as a for profit service by a private company. The charges that would need to be levied to gain a profit would not be affordable to the public.

Certain services need to be provided by the state as there is simply a requirement for them irrespective of the cost.

Again, not necessarily true..

Services do have to be provided.. BUT the state does not have to directly provide the service itself.. The state can (if it is deemed cost effective and desirable) outsource ANY service to a private company if it so wished.

If it costs the state X million to provide a service (any service) and a private company could provide the same or better level of service for lower cost.. why shouldn't the state look to outsource that service? The private company doesn't have to charge the end customer directly, it is under contract to provide that service to the county and bills the state directly.

RobbieTheRobber · 06-12-2010 03:48PM

Welease wrote: »

Again, not necessarily true..

Services do have to be provided.. BUT the state does not have to directly provide the service itself.. The state can (if it is deemed cost effective and desirable) outsource ANY service to a private company if it so wished.

If it costs the state X million to provide a service (any service) and a private company could provide the same or better level of service for lower cost.. why shouldn't the state look to outsource that service? The private company doesn't have to charge the end customer directly, it is under contract to provide that service to the county and bills the state directly.

So lets assume that military and police forces need to be maintained as state services.
How about education, is this an area you feel can be outsourced?

doc_17 · 06-12-2010 03:49PM

To answer the OPs question.....I think the state should outsource the banking sector. And with it the losses that are crippling us.

Welease · 06-12-2010 03:55PM

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

So lets assume that military and police forces need to be maintained as state services.
How about education, is this an area you feel can be outsourced?

I'm not in a position to deem whether it's viable or not.. making a snap judgement on here without any figures would be rediculous.. I am responding to the suggestion that other posters are making, that state run services could not be outsourced.. They can, and indeed they are.. Since 2001 our search and rescue services have been moved out the remit of the Air Corps and are handled by CHC (http://www.chcsar.com/) for example.

Regarding Education.. there are plenty of private educational establishments around the world that seem to excel.. Whether it's financially viable or desirable, I have no idea.

galway2007 · 06-12-2010 04:12PM

Welease wrote: »

I'm not in a position to deem whether it's viable or not.. making a snap judgement on here without any figures would be rediculous.. I am responding to the suggestion that other posters are making, that state run services could not be outsourced.. They can, and indeed they are.. Since 2001 our search and rescue services have been moved out the remit of the Air Corps and are handled by CHC (http://www.chcsar.com/) for example.

Regarding Education.. there are plenty of private educational establishments around the world that seem to excel.. Whether it's financially viable or desirable, I have no idea.

Just like our private school here who get a top up of 100 million of tax payers money

RobbieTheRobber · 06-12-2010 04:17PM

Welease wrote: »

I'm not in a position to deem whether it's viable or not.. making a snap judgement on here without any figures would be rediculous.. I am responding to the suggestion that other posters are making, that state run services could not be outsourced.. They can, and indeed they are.. Since 2001 our search and rescue services have been moved out the remit of the Air Corps and are handled by CHC (http://www.chcsar.com/) for example.

Regarding Education.. there are plenty of private educational establishments around the world that seem to excel.. Whether it's financially viable or desirable, I have no idea.

I didnt ask if it was viable, i was seeking your opinion on what would eb good sections of the PS to outsource, I am not going to plan from what you say and hold you financically responsible.

But I will leave it as an open question to all on this thread as to what they feel would be suitable for outsourcing.
AS i stated i feel both military and police services are very unlikely candidates.
I raised education as a potential but am open to toher suggestions.

galway2007 · 06-12-2010 04:28PM

kceire wrote: »

the cost for these items will then shoot up as the private sector company we need to make a profit on the operation.

Yes it is called Greed and most of there employees suffer from it

Welease · 06-12-2010 06:21PM

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

I didnt ask if it was viable, i was seeking your opinion on what would eb good sections of the PS to outsource, I am not going to plan from what you say and hold you financically responsible.

How can anyone know if its a "good" section to outsource if they don't have any visibility into the current costs to the state, the costs out outsourcing, and the cost of moving to an outsourced model?

Everything can be outsourced, whether is makes sense to do so needs to be looked at on an individual basis.

I "would" like to see a more decentralised system of services potentially using Post Offices like in the UK. Having to drive to a dedicated motor tax office miles away in Kildare once a year is frankly rediculous.

westtip · 06-12-2010 06:22PM

theghost wrote: »

Are you sure you mean the public service and not the civil service?

How would you feel if the public service - i.e. the public hospitals, the Gardai, the schools staffed by teachers paid by the government, and the fire and ambulance service were privatised? In other words, you have to pay for your childrens' education from the start of primary school to whichever level of education you wish your children to obtain. You have to pay for a fire service to come out and put out the fire that is destroying your house, pay to have any injured family members taken by ambulance to hospital and pay for all hospital treatment incurred by those family members?

You have picked up the wrong inference in what I originally posted, my argument is we could look for certain areas of the public sector that could indeed be outsourced to private providers - this is far different than privatisation of services. I would not want the services you mentioned to be privatised - in fact I strongly object to the subvention of teachers salaries in the private education sector by the state - if a teacher chooses to teach in a fee paying school I don't actually see why the state should subsidise this sector by paying anything towards these teachers salaries - similarly I do not believe public hospitals should be used for private patients and publically paid consultants, nurses etc should not be doing private nixers in public hospital facilities.

RobbieTheRobber · 06-12-2010 06:26PM

Welease wrote: »

How can anyone know if its a "good" section to outsource if they don't have any visibility into the current costs to the state, the costs out outsourcing, and the cost of moving to an outsourced model?

Everything can be outsourced, whether is makes sense to do so needs to be looked at on an individual basis.

I "would" like to see a more decentralised system of services potentially using Post Offices like in the UK. Having to drive to a dedicated motor tax office miles away in Kildare once a year is frankly rediculous.

The title of this thread is "Pucliic Sector Functions that could be done by private sector "

Now stop me here if Im making mad assumptions But I would assume from that title that the discussion was about outsourcing ps functions, would you say that is incorrect?

Obviously we are not going to outsource things that are not viable, also if we do not have the info required to discuss this, then eh whats the point in a topic on a discussion forum about it?

westtip wrote: »

You have picked up the wrong inference in what I originally posted, my argument is we could look for certain areas of the public sector that could indeed be outsourced to private providers - this is far different than privatisation of services. I would not want the services you mentioned to be privatised - in fact I strongly object to the subvention of teachers salaries in the private education sector by the state - if a teacher chooses to teach in a fee paying school I don't actually see why the state should subsidise this sector by paying anything towards these teachers salaries - similarly I do not believe public hospitals should be used for private patients and publically paid consultants, nurses etc should not be doing private nixers in public hospital facilities.

Im shocked this is finally an issue i can agree with you on!

Bigus · 06-12-2010 06:37PM

Nct is a good example of a private company doing an efficient job.

Current test cost is €50 much the same as a few years ago.

If a quango was runnning this the cost would probably be €95 now.

Also controls seem to be better when a private company is being watched /audited as against a government/ county council with no outside audits.

Tax man must think they are good too because the revenue are getting applus to collect vrt now also.

I just hope the revenue are not still paying rent on the old vrt offices or worse still are the old vrt staff properly deployed now ?

Welease · 06-12-2010 06:40PM

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

The title of this thread is "Pucliic Sector Functions that could be done by private sector "

Now stop me here if Im making mad assumptions But I would assume from that title that the discussion was about outsourcing ps functions, would you say that is incorrect?

Obviously we are not going to outsource things that are not viable, also if we do not have the info required to discuss this, then eh whats the point in a topic on a discussion forum about it?

Well.. everything "could" be outsourced.. There is no skill or service within the PS that is unique to the PS and cannot be taken on by other organisations... If their employer changed tomorrow (i.e. outsourced and rehired by a private contractor) then those people employed to do the job today, could and would be able to do the job tomorrow. You "could" outsource the military tomorrow (with some legislation changes I'd imagine) if you wished..

As to whether a service "should" be outsourced.. then there needs to be an understanding of the costs involved and the non financial benefits of doing so.

Regarding the thread, you'll need to ask the OP why they posted it

.. I was merely responding to the incorrect suggestion from others that a) services could not be outsourced and b) that outsourcing is immediately more expensive because a profit has to be made (or the costs for fire brigades for example would be born by the customer directly). Neither of those statement are in fact true.

cyclopath2001 · 06-12-2010 06:44PM

Bigus wrote: »

Also controls seem to be better when a private company is being watched /audited as against a government/ county council with no outside audits.

Like Fás outsourcing training courses?

Bigus · 06-12-2010 06:47PM

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Like Fás outsourcing training courses?

You are getting confused with outsourcing FAS altogether with Fas outsourcing their responsibilities.

In Fas you had the worst of both worlds

galway2007 · 08-12-2010 04:58PM

Bank of Ireland is a great example of the private sector
2 day and still cant sort out there computer problem
Time to take them into the public sector

Pucliic Sector Functions that could be done by private sector

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