Is Irish a Dead Language?

AnneFrank · 08-12-2010 02:24PM

deise go deo wrote: »

There are plenty of people outside the gaelthacht with fluent or near fluent Irish,
There are business that use it.
It can be found in other cointries, Canada, USA and UK to be exact, There is an Irish language Society in Australia too.
Government documents are translated because the State recognises the right of Irish speakers to conduct their business with the state through their native language. That said, not every document is translated.
And as for the bit iv highlighted, Go down to your local Gaelscoil/Gaelthacht and actually see some of the people you are commenting on, You are being quite unfair.

the % is so small i dont think it's worth it for the few snobbish citizens who hold it dear,(not including native gaelthacht areas that speak it since birth)i'd say 90% of the country has f all irish and i think the money used for translations could be spent on homeless and struggling familys,and instead of learning irish i think there should be a more usable subject thought.Just my 2cents your obviously entitled to disagree

Cú Giobach · 08-12-2010 02:26PM

AnneFrank wrote: »

the % is so small i dont think it's worth it for the few snobbish citizens who hold it dear,

Oh the naivety. (and snobbery) :rolleyes:

AnneFrank · 08-12-2010 02:32PM

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Oh the naivety. (and snobbery) :rolleyes:

funny how you speak in english,and all the other defenders of the language for that matter.point proven

deise go deo · 08-12-2010 02:34PM

AnneFrank wrote: »

funny how you speak in english,and all the other defenders of the language for that matter.point proven

Who is the snob? Irish speakers just want to use their own language when dealing with the state, You are the one who ridicules them for their choice.

Bill2673 · 08-12-2010 02:42PM

I've just been on the Luas.

Each announcement in English was followed by the Irish translation. Next stop, Georges Dock. An Staisiun Eile, Duga Seoirse....or some such. All the way along.

And I was thinking, has there ever been a single passenger on the Luas who has been able to understand the Irish but couldn't understand the English. Has the translation ever once served a practical purpose. I would say there hasn't been a single passenger that has needed it. There is absolutely no doubt that a Chinese translation or Latvian or Polish or Russian translation would offer more practical value, in terms of helping people understand where they are going.

Perhaps not relevant to the question posed, i.e. this doesn't tell you that Irish is or isn't a dead language. But its an example of the charade that the population are asked to go along with.

AnneFrank · 08-12-2010 02:49PM

Bill2673 wrote: »

I've just been on the Luas.

Each announcement in English was followed by the Irish translation. Next stop, Georges Dock. An Staisiun Eile, Duga Seoirse....or some such. All the way along.

And I was thinking, has there ever been a single passenger on the Luas who has been able to understand the Irish but couldn't understand the English. Has the translation ever once served a practical purpose. I would say there hasn't been a single passenger that has needed it. There is absolutely no doubt that a Chinese translation or Latvian or Polish or Russian translation would offer more practical value, in terms of helping people understand where they are going.

Perhaps not relevant to the question posed, i.e. this doesn't tell you that Irish is or isn't a dead language. But its an example of the charade that the population are asked to go along with.

great post Bill

Krusader · 08-12-2010 02:52PM

Bill2673 wrote: »

I've just been on the Luas.

Each announcement in English was followed by the Irish translation. Next stop, Georges Dock. An Staisiun Eile, Duga Seoirse....or some such. All the way along.

And I was thinking, has there ever been a single passenger on the Luas who has been able to understand the Irish but couldn't understand the English. Has the translation ever once served a practical purpose. I would say there hasn't been a single passenger that has needed it. There is absolutely no doubt that a Chinese translation or Latvian or Polish or Russian translation would offer more practical value, in terms of helping people understand where they are going.

Perhaps not relevant to the question posed, i.e. this doesn't tell you that Irish is or isn't a dead language. But its an example of the charade that the population are asked to go along with.

Not really valid as most of the names are Anglicisations of Gaelic anyway

Kylemore - Coill mór - big wood

Cú Giobach · 08-12-2010 02:55PM

AnneFrank wrote: »

funny how you speak in english,and all the other defenders of the language for that matter.point proven

Unless you have met me how do you know what I speak?

I speak more than just Irish and English BTW.

From recently in this thread.

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Cosc ar Crosáidí.

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Comhrá faoi prátaí nó an feirm, ach gneas as Gaeilge, tut tut.

Go cúin;
Ár nAithair atá ar neamh........

If one does too much of this without providing a translation for our non Irish speaking contingent, infractions are handed out, because this is an English language forum.
I do not have either the time or inclination to post everything in two languages.
Your comment, because this is an English language forum, is quite amusing.

Bill2673 · 08-12-2010 02:57PM

Crosáidí wrote: »

Not really valid as most of the names are Anglicisations of Gaelic anyway

Kylemore - Coill mór - big wood

Whats not really valid?

The translation?

The point that the translation is a charade?

Station is an anglicisation? George is an anglicisation? Dock is an anglicisation?

Krusader · 08-12-2010 03:00PM

Bill2673 wrote: »

Whats not really valid?

The translation?

The point that the translation is a charade?

Station is an anglicisation? George is an anglicisation? Dock is an anglicisation?

If you wanted to put them in a different language the person speaking the other language would have to know the name in English to make sense of it. Think about it

How do you suppose we translate Tallaght into a slavic language

Bill2673 · 08-12-2010 03:07PM

Crosáidí wrote: »

If you wanted to put them in a different language the person speaking the other language would have to know the name in English to make sense of it. Think about it

How do you suppose we translate Tallaght into a slavic language

You don't seem to be disagreeing that the Irish translation is a charade, just that translating into a slavic language would serve no purpose.

Suppose you wanted to say that the train would not be stopping in Connolly Station but that it would be going direct to the Point Depot? Or that because of ice on the track, the train is only going to Bluebell. Places names aren't the only point of the announcement.

Krusader · 08-12-2010 03:15PM

Bill2673 wrote: »

You don't seem to be disagreeing that the Irish translation is a charade, just that translating into a slavic language would serve no purpose.

Suppose you wanted to say that the train would not be stopping in Connolly Station but that it would be going direct to the Point Depot? Or that because of ice on the track, the train is only going to Bluebell. Places names aren't the only point of the announcement.

If you are ever on the metro in Paris or the tube in London, you'll realise that this isn't done. And all announcements are done in French and English respectively. I wouldn't expect anything else either, we have two languages in Ireland and so both are catered for on buses and trams, just like i'm sure the same is done in Belguim and other countries that have 2 official languages.
Anyway most anouncements of delays and such are usually said by the driver and which will probably be in English

Bill2673 · 08-12-2010 03:17PM

Crosáidí wrote: »

If you are ever on the metro in Paris or the tube in London, you'll realise that this isn't done. And all announcements are done in French and English respectively. I wouldn't expect anything else either, we have two languages in Ireland and so both are catered for , just like i'm sure the same is done in Belguim and other countries that have 2 official languages

I really don't understand your point on any of this.

Krusader · 08-12-2010 03:20PM

Bill2673 wrote: »

I really don't understand your point on any of this.

Some people know placenames by their English name and some by their Irish name having both appeases both sets of people

Japer · 08-12-2010 03:23PM

Bill2673 wrote: »

I've just been on the Luas.

Each announcement in English was followed by the Irish translation. Next stop, Georges Dock. An Staisiun Eile, Duga Seoirse....or some such. All the way along.

And I was thinking, has there ever been a single passenger on the Luas who has been able to understand the Irish but couldn't understand the English. Has the translation ever once served a practical purpose. I would say there hasn't been a single passenger that has needed it. There is absolutely no doubt that a Chinese translation or Latvian or Polish or Russian translation would offer more practical value, in terms of helping people understand where they are going.

Perhaps not relevant to the question posed, i.e. this doesn't tell you that Irish is or isn't a dead language. But its an example of the charade that the population are asked to go along with.

The same with a government publication I saw. The booklet was twice the size it should have been, and tonnes of extra forest had to be cut down and transported, just so that a few Irish speakers could see something in irish. I am sure they would have read it in the english language anyway.
The irish language - an expensive and tiresome charade.

Krusader · 08-12-2010 03:26PM

Japer wrote: »

The same with a government publication I saw. The booklet was twice the size it should have been, and tonnes of extra forest had to be cut down and transported, just so that a few Irish speakers could see something in irish. I am sure they would have read it in the english language anyway.
The irish language - an expensive and tiresome charade.

To be honest there's more printing done in English than Irish, if you are such the ECO warrior and concerned about the environment you'd chastise that too.
What's wrong with .pdf and letting people print their own forms or reports they need in English or Irish

Japer · 08-12-2010 03:38PM

Crosáidí wrote: »

To be honest there's more printing done in English than Irish

thats because there is more demand for words in the english rather than irish .....look in to any newsagent + you will see what I mean.
Yet junk mail booklets etc that comes from the government / a semi-state department comes in two languages , doubling the paper + printing : one language that everyone will understand, and the other language nobody will read.

Krusader · 08-12-2010 03:41PM

Japer wrote: »

thats because there is more demand for words in the english rather than irish .....look in to any newsagent + you will see what I mean.
Yet junk mail booklets etc that comes from the government / a semi-state department comes in two languages , doubling the paper + printing : one language that everyone will understand, and the other language nobody will read.

We're talking 'bout government reports/forms not newspapers, publishing a report in .pdf would save printing costs in both languages
If they are junk mail booklets should they be printed at all then. And I read the Irish part, just because you don't, it doesn't mean no one does

Japer · 08-12-2010 04:00PM

Crosáidí wrote: »

. And I read the Irish part,

do you work in the Irish language industry, do you translate or teach or write Irish ?

Mongarra · 08-12-2010 04:02PM

I have a few Foras na Gaeilge signs around the office e.g. 'Oscailte' or 'Dúnta' on the door, 'Tá cúpla focal agam' on my desk, 'Fir' and 'Mná' on the leithreas doors. many callers comment on the signs in a favourable way but none will try the 'Cúpla focal'.

For years it has been my contention that many people have been reluctant to try their little bit because the language snobs' attitude appears to be 'Say it properly or not at all' and this is intimidating.

It may be that this or similar comments have appeared in this Thread earlier but I am only new to it so maybe repeating unnecessarily.

For the purists I wonder should the F na G sign for 'Open' not read 'Ar oscailt' (Open) rather than as it has, 'Oscailte' (Opened?). I would welcome comments on this latter point.

Bill2673 · 08-12-2010 04:03PM

So as to be on both sides of the fence, I'll quote from Stephen Fry, speaking yesterday at Colaiste Trinoide:

"It is obviously a privilege to speak one of the ancient languages of Europe."

Japer · 08-12-2010 04:07PM

Mongarra wrote: »

many callers comment on the signs in a favourable way

they are being polite / making conversation / probably trying to put you in a good mood + sell you some thing ( or some service ) while in your office

Mongarra wrote: »

but none will try the 'Cúpla focal'.

lol that says it all. Most people seem to hate irish from school, and think that anyone who uses it is would be ugly or weird.

Krusader · 08-12-2010 04:08PM

Japer wrote: »

do you work in the Irish language industry, do you translate or teach or write Irish ?

No neither, I'm at the moment unemployed but worked as a labourer for the last 6 years

Bill2673 · 08-12-2010 04:08PM

Japer wrote: »

Most people seem to hate irish from school, and think that anyone who uses it is would be ugly or weird.

Grow up

Krusader · 08-12-2010 04:10PM

Mongarra wrote: »

I have a few Foras na Gaeilge signs around the office e.g. 'Oscailte' or 'Dúnta' on the door, 'Tá cúpla focal agam' on my desk, 'Fir' and 'Mná' on the leithreas doors. many callers comment on the signs in a favourable way but none will try the 'Cúpla focal'.

For years it has been my contention that many people have been reluctant to try their little bit because the language snobs' attitude appears to be 'Say it properly or not at all' and this is intimidating.

It may be that this or similar comments have appeared in this Thread earlier but I am only new to it so maybe repeating unnecessarily.

For the purists I wonder should the F na G sign for 'Open' not read 'Ar oscailt' (Open) rather than as it has, 'Oscailte' (Opened?). I would welcome comments on this latter point.

Ar oscailt is definetly correct, I'm unsure if Oscailte can be used as an alternative

Krusader · 08-12-2010 04:11PM

Bill2673 wrote: »

So as to be on both sides of the fence, I'll quote from Stephen Fry, speaking yesterday at Colaiste Trinoide:

"It is obviously a privilege to speak one of the ancient languages of Europe."

Stephen Fry is to appear on Ros na Rún aswell

Japer · 08-12-2010 04:13PM

why else would most people not put irish language signs on / in their business. Mongarra can put "a few Foras na Gaeilge signs around his office " if he wants , its a free world. Most people in business would - probably wisely - find it best not give out those signals ! lol.

sandmanporto · 08-12-2010 04:14PM

scientific1982 wrote: »

No its not a dead language. Its actually growing in popularity thanks to gael scoils, more enlightened parents and the nationalist community in the north. There are Irish language classes being held in cities all over the world. Its a beautiful language that should be preserved and people who think otherwise are frankly ignorant.

i never knew they spoke irish in the north. I just wish irish sounded nicer. It doesnt sound nice when spoken. Sometimes it sounds like the person has a phlegm buildup like grainne seoige and its annoying for the listener. Again its just my view and everybody thinks differently.

Krusader · 08-12-2010 04:19PM

sandmanporto wrote: »

i never knew they spoke irish in the north. I just wish irish sounded nicer. It doesnt sound nice when spoken. Sometimes it sounds like the person has a phlegm buildup like grainne seoige and its annoying for the listener. Again its just my view and everybody thinks differently.

There's a big explosion of Irish in NI at the moment, especially in Belfast and Derry. Most of the GAA clubs provide cheap lessons for people who are interested up there and there are a good few Gaeilscoileanna

deise go deo · 08-12-2010 04:22PM

Mongarra wrote: »

I have a few Foras na Gaeilge signs around the office e.g. 'Oscailte' or 'Dúnta' on the door, 'Tá cúpla focal agam' on my desk, 'Fir' and 'Mná' on the leithreas doors. many callers comment on the signs in a favourable way but none will try the 'Cúpla focal'.

Many people do not feel confident speaking Irish, The fear I have come across is that, If I try to use the Cúpla focal then they will think I have fluent Irish and will speak in Irish to me putting me in the awkward situation of having to admit I dont have fluent Irish.

So they will just avoid it altogether and use English. If you tried using Greetings in Irish, Fáilte, Dia Duit etc you may have more success.

For years it has been my contention that many people have been reluctant to try their little bit because the language snobs' attitude appears to be 'Say it properly or not at all' and this is intimidating.

You do get that but I think the perception is much more common than the reality,
Most Irish speakers I have met are delighted when someone makes the effort to use some Irish.

Is Fearr Gaeilge Briste ná Béarla cliste:)

Is Irish a Dead Language?

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