Is Irish a Dead Language?

Krusader · 08-12-2010 01:30AM

Tá mé ag ceapadh gur bean shalach nó seanfhear salach thú

bean shalach, le cúnamh Dé

Mike 1972 · 08-12-2010 02:06AM

Crosáidí wrote: »

That's fair enough, if people don't want to speak it, they don't have to, but speakers do have a right to certain services in their own language

No they dont.

Krusader · 08-12-2010 02:13AM

Oh yes they do, and it won't be long before it's in your courts up there aswell

deise go deo · 08-12-2010 02:34AM

Mike 1972 wrote: »

No they dont.

What do you mean? People do have the Right to use Irish when conducting their business with the state.

From the Official languages act 2003:

-The public has the right to receive replies in Irish from public bodies.
-A person has the Right to conduct their business before the Oireachtas through Irish.
-The public has the right to use Irish in any Court.

08-12-2010 02:35AM

LordSutch wrote: »

One would have thought that the language would have taken off after independence (1922), but here we are eight decades later with many people beginning to ask questions as to the relevancy of the Irish language in day to day life, which then begs the question "Does the Mandatory/Compulsive teaching of Irish still have a place in modern Ireland"? Does the massive cost justify the very poor overall results?

Irish is not dead, but its certainly not the spoken language of the the Irish people today (minority acknowledged).

If the state had really been serious about Irish being reinstated as the principle language of the state, they would have mandated that the government, civil service, banks etc would use Irish at all times after a certain date. I have seen a story somewhere that many native Irish speakers still have to switch to English to do anything official even today.

You simply cannot have a bilingual country if the civil service, banks etc only conduct their business in English.

CrazyRabbit · 08-12-2010 02:40AM

It's a dying language, not a dead one. It has its little resurgences every now and again, but I seriously doubt it will ever again be a widely spoken language or the primary language of Ireland.

IF we did want to breath new life into it, people would need to have a good reason to learn it....some advantage. There is no point learning anything that will have no use to you in your day-to-day life, and that is what is killing the language.

I pretty much gave up on learning Irish at age 14 as I saw no reason to put effort into it. Why take time away from studying Maths/Science/English etc...things that have a real-world benefit?

By contrast, in recent years I've realised that having a 2nd European language could be quite beneficial in terms of gaining/maintaining employment & open up new possible careers. So I started to teach myself (with help from Rosetta Stone application and people I work with).

What good, practical reason could we give people to encourage them to learn Irish? I honestly can't think of any, but am open to suggestions.

deise go deo · 08-12-2010 02:50AM

CrazyRabbit wrote: »

It's a dying language, not a dead one. It has its little resurgences every now and again, but I seriously doubt it will ever again be a widely spoken language or the primary language of Ireland.

IF we did want to breath new life into it, people would need to have a good reason to learn it....some advantage. There is no point learning anything that will have no use to you in your day-to-day life, and that is what is killing the language.

I pretty much gave up on learning Irish at age 14 as I saw no reason to put effort into it. Why take time away from studying Maths/Science/English etc...things that have a real-world benefit?

By contrast, in recent years I've realised that having a 2nd European language could be quite beneficial in terms of gaining/maintaining employment & open up new possible careers. So I started to teach myself (with help from Rosetta Stone application and people I work with).

What good, practical reason could we give people to encourage them to learn Irish? I honestly can't think of any, but am open to suggestions.

Practical reason? Jobs, plain and simple. There are quite a few jobs available for people with a good standard of Irish.

And I disagree about it dying, I don't think it is anymore, The expansion of the gaelscoil movement and the government finally doing something constructive in the provision of services to Irish speakers are both helping to halt its decline, If the Gaelscoil movement was actually supported by the Government and the Irish curriculum in schools was reformed then I my opinion we would see a steady resurgence of Irish, The old bitterness about 'Peig' and 'beating the language into us' is fading away.

NTMK · 08-12-2010 03:00AM

CrazyRabbit wrote: »

It's a dying language, not a dead one. It has its little resurgences every now and again, but I seriously doubt it will ever again be a widely spoken language or the primary language of Ireland.

IF we did want to breath new life into it, people would need to have a good reason to learn it....some advantage. There is no point learning anything that will have no use to you in your day-to-day life, and that is what is killing the language.

I pretty much gave up on learning Irish at age 14 as I saw no reason to put effort into it. Why take time away from studying Maths/Science/English etc...things that have a real-world benefit?

By contrast, in recent years I've realised that having a 2nd European language could be quite beneficial in terms of gaining/maintaining employment & open up new possible careers. So I started to teach myself (with help from Rosetta Stone application and people I work with).

What good, practical reason could we give people to encourage them to learn Irish? I honestly can't think of any, but am open to suggestions.

I agree completely with this the language is dying because it has zero practical benefit and keeping it mandatory in schools is only keeping it on life support we might as well drop it from being mandatory and make learning a second EU language mandatory so our population hopefully becomes Bilingual like our EU counterparts

Like you I gave up on Irish at an early age and atm I can speak fluent German, basic Turkish (and I’m considering learning Spanish or Arabic to improve my career prospects) but not a single bit of Irish

so until Irish can help people it is dying and now amount of mandatory education (oral or written) is ever going to stop that

deise go deo · 08-12-2010 03:05AM

NTMK wrote: »

I agree completely with this the language is dying because it has zero practical benefit and keeping it mandatory in schools is only keeping it on life support we might as well drop it from being mandatory and make learning a second EU language mandatory so our population hopefully becomes Bilingual like our EU counterparts

Like you I gave up on Irish at an early age and atm I can speak fluent German, basic Turkish (and I’m considering learning Spanish or Arabic to improve my career prospects) but not a single bit of Irish

so until Irish can help people it is dying and now amount of mandatory education (oral or written) is ever going to stop that

Look up. I just answered that point, as I said there are quite a few jobs that need Irish.
More in fact than any other second language.

Maldjd23 · 08-12-2010 03:10AM

I would love Irish to not only survive but to thrive..Tragically it wont thou. I like most others spent many years in school "learning" irish...If 5 classes a week for 14 years cant teach me the language; what can?...I studied French from 4th to 6th year and became fluent...Why not the same with Irish??...Is it a case teachers don't or can't teach properly???

deise go deo · 08-12-2010 03:30AM

Maldjd23 wrote: »

I would love Irish to not only survive but to thrive..Tragically it wont thou. I like most others spent many years in school "learning" irish...If 5 classes a week for 14 years cant teach me the language; what can?...I studied French from 4th to 6th year and became fluent...Why not the same with Irish??...Is it a case teachers don't or can't teach properly???

Its a case of a very poor curriculum failing to give good results.
Irish in secondary school is a poor basis to judge the language,
It isent that bad really. If you wanted to learn Irish you could probably do so quite quickly, The Irish you did pick up in school is still there, and if your French is anything to go by then you don't seam to have trouble picking up a language.

NTMK · 08-12-2010 03:49AM

deise go deo wrote: »

Look up. I just answered that point, as I said there are quite a few jobs that need Irish.
More in fact than any other second language.

Maybe there is quite a few jobs that need Irish but having a second EU language is a massive advantage when looking for a job in mainland Europe and its beneficial to multinationals to have a bilingual workforce to communicate with customers and other plants

In my profession (scientist) for an internship I needed to be fluent in English, German and French.

Irish does not have the same advantages as learning a foreign language and it doesn’t have a day to day uses that makes it easier and more interesting to learn a language (since finishing the leaving I have spoke more Turkish than Irish and I haven’t been to turkey) I have no problems with the language but its uses are limited and that needs to change before it can turn around. I believe if Irish was not mandatory but learning a language was (Irish, German, French, etc) the language would be learned by people who want to learn it and those that don’t want to learn it won’t have it shoved down their throat

08-12-2010 04:13AM

Pace2008 wrote: »

This is the strongest argument I've seen from the pro-Gaelic side so far.

Which say it all, really.

Hmm, sense of humour failure right here. You need to lighten up.

Serious answer follows....

08-12-2010 04:19AM

I see that for many of our more vocal posters, there's a push to kill anything they see as irrational. I see it with the anti-religious snarks, and I see it here with the anti-Gaeilge snarks. I give the same answer to both camps...learn to live with it.

scientific1982 · 08-12-2010 05:21AM

No its not a dead language. Its actually growing in popularity thanks to gael scoils, more enlightened parents and the nationalist community in the north. There are Irish language classes being held in cities all over the world. Its a beautiful language that should be preserved and people who think otherwise are frankly ignorant.

Cú Giobach · 08-12-2010 09:55AM

There is a very interesting circular argument going on in all these Irish language threads ie; I won't/don't want to learn Irish because nobody uses it.
If people don't learn it nobody will use it and if nobody uses it nobody will learn it.
That is why Irish is dying. It actually takes effort to reverse such a trend.
The more people who realise that hatred/dislike for a language is actually quite irrational, the more of a chance that this trend could be reversed.
Also it is up to the people who do speak it to use it. Greeting people in Irish is a great thing to do, if the other person speaks Irish grand, if not the saxon tongue will have to suffice.

My Irish isn't the best but I greet people in Irish and was genuinely amazed at the number of people who reply as Gaeilge and even using the most basic school Irish could string a few sentences together.
(my favorite is, when addressed in Irish someone says "sorry I don't speak Irish" and then they respond to what I said, without me translating).
No Irish is not dead.

Japer · 08-12-2010 11:33AM

Paparazzo wrote: »

I spend a week in a gaeltach every year for the past 12 years and have yet to hear a local speak Irish there.

lol tell them you are an inspector for the grants and see their faces drop, and then they may struggle to string a few words together !

Its a farce, and it would be funny except for the fact so much money is wasted translating, printing things in to Irish, and trying to drum it in to us at school. People have died on hospital trolleys and from cancer because irish language fanatics have had their dirty way.

Insect Overlord · 08-12-2010 11:36AM

Japer wrote: »

Its a farce, and it would be funny except for the fact so much money is wasted translating, printing things in to Irish, and trying to drum it in to us at school. People have died on hospital trolleys and from cancer because irish language fanatics have had their dirty way.

Do you honestly believe the mismanagement of the health service is due to the Irish language?

That's mad, Ted.

Krusader · 08-12-2010 11:42AM

Japer wrote: »

lol tell them you are an inspector for the grants and see their faces drop, and then they may struggle to string a few words together !

Its a farce, and it would be funny except for the fact so much money is wasted translating, printing things in to Irish, and trying to drum it in to us at school. People have died on hospital trolleys and from cancer because irish language fanatics have had their dirty way.

Well done on that idiotic comment, here's a cookie now go back to bed, adults discussing here

population · 08-12-2010 11:46AM

My teachers in school were unable to teach it. Therefore I do not have much Irish. It is a shame though as I would like to try learn my own language again sometime in the future.

Japer · 08-12-2010 11:49AM

Insect Overlord wrote: »

Do you honestly believe the mismanagement of the health service is due to the Irish language?

The point was the Irish language has cost this country billions, when you add up the cost of trying to drum it in to people, the extra cost of printing / duplicating everything, the cost of translators etc.
Some people have died in this country because of waiting times, inadequate cancer care etc.

Krusader · 08-12-2010 11:51AM

population wrote: »

My teachers in school were unable to teach it. Therefore I do not have much Irish. It is a shame though as I would like to try learn my own language again sometime in the future.

Alot of teachers are good teachers that have their hands tied due to the curriculum, I didn't like doing poems and shakespeare in English, why would I want to do it in a language I don't know
New curriculum is needed and primary school overhaul (too many teachers in there just for the lifestyle)

Krusader · 08-12-2010 11:54AM

Japer wrote: »

The point was the Irish language has cost this country billions, when you add up the cost of trying to drum it in to people, the extra cost of printing / duplicating everything, the cost of translators etc.
Some people have died in this country because of waiting times, inadequate cancer care etc.

Its not a valid point, thousands of people have died because my tax goes to RTÉ, if we didn't have to watch Fair City people would live.
Your argument is null and void

Run_to_da_hills · 08-12-2010 12:17PM

What I cannot understand, Hebrew was almost extinct until the state of Israel was formed in 1947. It is now their primary language and is thriving. Surely we could do better than that.

Hopefully if Sinn Fein get seats they will promote this language but not in the same manner that it was drilled into us throughout our school years.

It should be encouraged through marketing, advertising and daily communication particularly in this crisis when our national sovereignty is at stake.

Japer · 08-12-2010 12:23PM

Crosáidí wrote: »

Its not a valid point, thousands of people have died because my tax goes to RTÉ, if we didn't have to watch Fair City people would live.
Your argument is null and void

If there was no licence fee and the government was not giving money to RTE and Pat Kenny was not paid 600,000 a year or whatever, the country would still survive. People would watch BBC/ UTV/ SKY/ Channel 4 etc as they do now.

If the Irish government was not wasting hundreds of millions each year trying to teach Irish to those who do not need or want to learn it, translate Irish, duplicate all government publications and signs etc, people would still read and speak and do their business through the English language, same as now.

Maybe the government should divert some of its time and resources to those on hospital trolleys, waiting for cancer checks etc rather than on a few irish language fanatics ? If there was a demand for the Irish language you would hear it spoken, you would see irish language magazines and newspapers openly on sale in your local newsagent + shop etc.

sensibleken · 08-12-2010 12:31PM

Isnt there about 3 threads going on about this in the politics forum?

Is there any point hammering througfh this with the same people AGAIN?

Krusader · 08-12-2010 12:45PM

Japer wrote: »

If there was no licence fee and the government was not giving money to RTE and Pat Kenny was not paid 600,000 a year or whatever, the country would still survive. People would watch BBC/ UTV/ SKY/ Channel 4 etc as they do now.

If the Irish government was not wasting hundreds of millions each year trying to teach Irish to those who do not need or want to learn it, translate Irish, duplicate all government publications and signs etc, people would still read and speak and do their business through the English language, same as now.

Maybe the government should divert some of its time and resources to those on hospital trolleys, waiting for cancer checks etc rather than on a few irish language fanatics ? If there was a demand for the Irish language you would hear it spoken, you would see irish language magazines and newspapers openly on sale in your local newsagent + shop etc.

Ok then, if the government didn't spend millions on sport, we would have better hospitals, does that appease you better.
At the end of the day, the Irish language doesn't cause misdiagnosis or bed shortages, but you know that

Buy the Indo today you'll get Foinse an Irish language paper inside and buy Gaelscéal every Friday. There is loads of eMags aswell and thousands of books and novels in Irish

Krusader · 08-12-2010 12:46PM

sensibleken wrote: »

Isnt there about 3 threads going on about this in the politics forum?

Is there any point hammering througfh this with the same people AGAIN?

No there isn't, i don't know why i bother, really.
ignorance is bliss and all that carry on

deise go deo · 08-12-2010 02:14PM

AnneFrank wrote: »

the only people that speak it live in gaeltacht areas,it's not used in any business or any other countries so as far as i am concerned it's dead,yes highly educated solicitors and td's will speak it too,but the average joe in ireland.....no,I have no problem with people learning it i actually enjoy the cupla focail i have but learning it should be CHOICE,also translating legal documents for the sake of it is MENTAL,if it's requested by some Td or snobbish intellectual to prove they have perfect irish then do it,but dont spend millions translating everything when a very very very small % want to read it in irish,i'd prefer my kids to learn a language that might actually help their future,if they want to learn irish themselves id pay for a course

There are plenty of people outside the gaelthacht with fluent or near fluent Irish,
There are business that use it.
It can be found in other cointries, Canada, USA and UK to be exact, There is an Irish language Society in Australia too.
Government documents are translated because the State recognises the right of Irish speakers to conduct their business with the state through their native language. That said, not every document is translated.
And as for the bit iv highlighted, Go down to your local Gaelscoil/Gaelthacht and actually see some of the people you are commenting on, You are being quite unfair.

Sonnenblumen · 08-12-2010 02:18PM

orourkeda wrote: »

I said the LANGUAGE is dead.

I didnt say irish speakers are zombies

That's a pity because I would have thought the new 'Failte go Zombieland' signs welcoming Tourists would have helped some folk in West Ireland.

Is Irish a Dead Language?

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