CV Advice Please

Devia · 07-12-2010 07:10PM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

I understand your hypothetical, but that's all it is. I've never had to decide between candidates based on the quality of their CV writing. Their work experience and qualifications were always sufficient metrics. A CV only needs to be good enough to convey this information.

I don't know what kind of recruitment you're involved in but the reality is that a lot of larger companies these days are taking in high volumes of equally qualified applications, many of whom will not get scheduled for an interview. So although I agree that CV isn't everything, I think your advice that it doesn't matter at all a bit misleading in those respects.

Dan_Solo · 07-12-2010 10:43PM

Devia wrote: »

So although I agree that CV isn't everything, I think your advice that it doesn't matter at all a bit misleading in those respects.

My advice that formatting and font sizes have a billion to one odds of being the deciding factor aren't misleading though. Unless it's obvious the applicant can't speak enough English to get by, it's simply a matter of qualifications and experience. A cover letter is for showing enthusiasm and that you've done your homework.

Eoin · 07-12-2010 10:45PM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

My advice that formatting and font sizes have a billion to one odds of being the deciding factor aren't misleading though

Are we talking about formatting and font-sizes, or spelling and grammar? Because it's the latter two that I have been saying shouldn't be optional.

Dan_Solo · 07-12-2010 10:55PM

eoin wrote: »

Are we talking about formatting and font-sizes, or spelling and grammar? Because it's the latter two that I have been saying shouldn't be optional.

A little, but even those not so much. Even Professors with 35 years of academic and industry experience often have cack use of written English, but it's still abundantly clear they know what they're at.

tenchi-fan · 08-12-2010 01:06AM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

A little, but even those not so much. Even Professors with 35 years of academic and industry experience often have cack use of written English, but it's still abundantly clear they know what they're at.

That might be the case where someone is already known to the recruiting manager and only needs to send in a cv as a formality.

But if the HR department receives 100 cvs for an advertised job (say, callcentre worker, accountant, office admin) they will bin cvs with spelling mistakes and poor grammar -mainly because attention to detail and good communication skills are usually prerequisites of the job. They may skim through 6 page long cvs but there's a good chance they will miss key facts among all the clutter and they will think the applicant has poor presentation skills.

Dan_Solo · 08-12-2010 01:42AM

tenchi-fan wrote: »

That might be the case where someone is already known to the recruiting manager and only needs to send in a cv as a formality.

But if the HR department receives 100 cvs for an advertised job (say, callcentre worker, accountant, office admin) they will bin cvs with spelling mistakes and poor grammar -mainly because attention to detail and good communication skills are usually prerequisites of the job. They may skim through 6 page long cvs but there's a good chance they will miss key facts among all the clutter and they will think the applicant has poor presentation skills.

Well if they're binning CVs with spelling mistakes from the best applicants ahead of gombeens with perfect English the company won't be around for long anyway.

Eoin · 08-12-2010 01:56AM

Just spell check and have someone proof read the CV, and negate the risk. It's really that simple.

tenchi-fan · 08-12-2010 01:57AM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Well if they're binning CVs with spelling mistakes from the best applicants ahead of gombeens with perfect English the company won't be around for long anyway.

Depending on the job, the best applicants may be the ones who have basic English skills.

woolymammoth · 08-12-2010 11:20AM

Dan, i agree with everything you've said. 100%.

And what you've said here is key;

Dan_Solo wrote: »

My advice that formatting and font sizes have a billion to one odds of being the deciding factor aren't misleading though.

You're right, it's not misleading. Formatting and fonts aren't ultimately the deciding factor. If the candidate is good enough and has all of the experience and qualifications needed, they will progress through to get the job.

But;

Dan_Solo wrote: »

A CV only needs to be good enough to convey this information.

Which is where i 100% agree with everyone else here. The CV is a selling exercise. and for 99% of us, we're not fortunate enough to have you perusing our CVs. HR depts and recruiters have, and will continue to 'filter out' anything that doesn't sell itself well.

It's a sad but accurate fact. however, it's distracting from the OPs original request for some help selling himself (herself?

)

Formatting to make it legible and clear are a good thing.
Overformatting to try and stand out is a bad thing.
Good grammar, punctuation, and spelling are very important.
Bad grammar, no punctuation, and incorrect spelling are, obviously, bad.
Well constructed and concise sentences are a good thing.
Overexplaining, waffly, long winded sentences are bad.
Using fancy words that doesn't fit with the context or your writing style are bad.
Structured layouts are good.
higgildy piggildy hard to read and find information is bad.

i could go on and on..

OP, feel free to pm me a copy of the CV (sans the personal info), I'll give you a sample of what I (not necessarily everyone else) would do.

Devia · 08-12-2010 01:35PM

Dan_Solo wrote:

My advice that formatting and font sizes have a billion to one odds of being the deciding factor aren't misleading though. Unless it's obvious the applicant can't speak enough English to get by, it's simply a matter of qualifications and experience.

Whether grammar or spelling matters to the individual/company on the other end is purely subjective though. For that reason I think its a good idea to put the best CV out there you possibly can. To tell someone otherwise is bad advice IMO.

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Well if they're binning CVs with spelling mistakes from the best applicants ahead of gombeens with perfect English the company won't be around for long anyway.

Bill Cullen has been around long enough I think:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5ZLxBSR9MM

I think the point is that companies base their decisions on a wide range of criteria, CV included. Anyone in recruitment knows that there are many incompetent fools sitting on jobs for years with so called "skills and experience" that couldn't do a job half as good as someone with limited experience. So basing your recruitment decisions solely on that is just as careless.

08-12-2010 02:33PM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Well if they're binning CVs with spelling mistakes from the best applicants ahead of gombeens with perfect English the company won't be around for long anyway.

If they have spelling mistakes on a CV, it can come across that they're not arsed putting in some basic effort and don't care that much about the job. A spell check isn't that difficult and should be an absolute minimum when they're sending out a CV.

Dan_Solo · 08-12-2010 03:54PM

Seems obvious from this thread that what most recruiters seem to be looking for are professional CV writers. I think I'll stick with the best qualified and experienced candidates myself when I'm sorting through a stack of CVs. Most HR people I've met have a "minimum requirement" list that they tick off when they go through a CV. They don't count the spelling and grammatical errors and shred it if it gets to five strikes.
Yes, do a spellcheck. Yes, format it as well as you can. If you're unemployed you should certainly have plenty of time on your hands to perfect a CV.
But no, don't assume you didn't get the job because somebody else spent €100 on a CV consultant.

Truley · 08-12-2010 04:03PM

Hey guys I notice alot of people say don't put references on the CV and to just write 'References available on request'. I always provide two references at the end of my CV. This is the format I use:

Name/Address/D.O.B./Phone Number/Email

Education Info - My Degree and other educational qualifications

Other Skills/Qualifications - ECDL, First Aid etc

Work Experience - Name and details of company, dates I worked and brief outline of the duties involved

Activities - Community Work, Sports Club, Voluntary Work and hobbies

Details of two references including name, address and contact number

I prefer to put my education and qualifications before work experience simply because I have a good degree as well as a few very impressive and sought after qualifications. My career history isn't as impressive, though in general I agree that work experience is what employers focus on.

woolymammoth · 08-12-2010 04:13PM

Truley wrote: »

Hey guys I notice alot of people say don't put references on the CV and to just write 'References available on request'. I always provide two references at the end of my CV.

Don't. it's a schoolboy error, that in my opinion harks back to when we all, in younger inexperienced times, would be keen to give away as much information as possible in the hope of impressing or securing a good impression, hhoping that we got that first job!!

however, if you have reliable references, now or ever, you should protect them. Not for you, but for them. Would you want someone passing on your details nilly willy!? i think not.. Control who and when you hand out private information. if it's wanted, they'll ask.

[edit] i should add, i don't even write they're available on request. It should be is presumed.

08-12-2010 04:18PM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Seems obvious from this thread that what most recruiters seem to be looking for are professional CV writers. I think I'll stick with the best qualified and experienced candidates myself when I'm sorting through a stack of CVs. Most HR people I've met have a "minimum requirement" list that they tick off when they go through a CV. They don't count the spelling and grammatical errors and shred it if it gets to five strikes.
Yes, do a spellcheck. Yes, format it as well as you can. If you're unemployed you should certainly have plenty of time on your hands to perfect a CV.
But no, don't assume you didn't get the job because somebody else spent €100 on a CV consultant.

If you think it takes 100 euro and a CV consultant to have no spelling errors, I'd be worried...

RootX · 08-12-2010 04:19PM

Don't think it's been posted here before but there's a european template regarding CVs. I've been using it since it became available and so far it has worked out ok

http://europass.cedefop.europa.eu/europass/home/hornav/Downloads.csp

Eoin · 08-12-2010 04:19PM

Truley wrote:

I always provide two references at the end of my CV.

The reasons I put "references available upon request" are:

1) I don't want them contacted without my permission (which means a job offer pending a reference check)
2) I don't want them caught off-guard
3) This might be quite specific to me, but there are relatively wide range of jobs I could apply for. Therefore my CV will be tailored to suit the job - and I'll want my referees to know this and what part of my experience they should talk up

sellerbarry · 08-12-2010 04:23PM

Hi all. Don't want to hijack the O/Ps thread but, How would I go about putting together a CV when I have only worked for two companies. One for 2 years and the other for nearly 20? They were both in the construction industry and there is no chance of getting work now in that field. I am currently on a course in computing in fas. Thing is, my CV seems a bit bland as I went straight to work, ie no college, further education except work related courses in construction. BTW thanks everyone who contributed to this thread. Very interesting read.
Cue: going to throw cv in bin.................;)

Truley · 08-12-2010 05:10PM

woolymammoth wrote: »

Don't. it's a schoolboy error, that in my opinion harks back to when we all, in younger inexperienced times, would be keen to give away as much information as possible in the hope of impressing or securing a good impression, hhoping that we got that first job!!

however, if you have reliable references, now or ever, you should protect them. Not for you, but for them. Would you want someone passing on your details nilly willy!? i think not.. Control who and when you hand out private information. if it's wanted, they'll ask.

[edit] i should add, i don't even write they're available on request. It should be is presumed.

Really? Wow. I'm surprised about that. I was always quite smug about the fact that I have really good references to hand. And assumed that employers would appreciate not having to hunt them down.

woolymammoth · 08-12-2010 05:13PM

sellerbarry wrote: »

How long would I go about putting together a CV when I have only worked for two companies. One for 2 years and the other for nearly 20? They were both in the construction industry and there is no chance of getting work now in that field. I am currently on a course in computing in fas. Thing is, my CV seems a bit bland as I went straight to work, ie no college, further education except work related courses in construction.

Don't get too caught up in the rigid symantics of CV length, formatting.. etc.

I'm still going to agree with everything Dan solo says, but, a CV is you selling yourself without you being present to sell yourself! And selling yourself is not that easy, which is why we get 3rd party opinions to take us down a notch, or to tell us where to beef ourselves up a little. It's very easy to change how someone thinks of you by your choice of words. All you have to do is read a book, newspaper, or listen to a speach someone else wrote to see what i mean. I think formatting is important, but i think it's important to format it in a way that it does not look too formatted and is extremely easy to read, skip through and find what you want. More important, though, are your words. you shouldn't waffle, but be clear and brief.

what i'm getting at really, I know i may not be explaining my self very well, is that your cv should not be rigid. It should reek of you (in a good way!). Don't be too concerned that you don't have a huge amount of xperience, or that you never went to college. You can use the same layout as someone with an hons degree in biomechanical art or whatever. Just list out what you do have. Be descriptive about what you do know. Outline what you are doing. The reader will get a clear image of you then.

Truley wrote: »

assumed that employers would appreciate not having to hunt them down.

It's hardly a hunt for them to simply ask you to provide a document you already have prepared to send them.

sellerbarry · 08-12-2010 05:28PM

Thanks wooly. Much appreciated.;)

Dan_Solo · 08-12-2010 06:23PM

bluewolf wrote: »

If you think it takes 100 euro and a CV consultant to have no spelling errors, I'd be worried...

Er, which is why it's just as well I didn't say that I suppose. Did anybody?

Dan_Solo · 08-12-2010 06:26PM

eoin wrote: »

3) This might be quite specific to me, but there are relatively wide range of jobs I could apply for. Therefore my CV will be tailored to suit the job - and I'll want my referees to know this and what part of my experience they should talk up

I've always used the same approach but came to the opposite conclusion: include referees who are part of the CV tailoring. A bit of name dropping can't hurt if it's likely your prospective employers will have heard of them. If referees would be upset by getting requests for information to bolster your job prospects, I wouldn't trust them to write me a good reference in any case!

Eoin · 08-12-2010 07:01PM

It's not about them getting upset about taking a call; I just want to be in control of who calls them, and when. There's no need for them to be called unless a job offer has been made; or at the very least, an interview taken place.

kiwipower · 09-12-2010 05:36PM

Some interesting advice here.
I would also like to Hi-Jack the OPs post here and ask a few questions relating to cold calling with a CV.

I am thinking of sending my CV to a couple of prospective employers in NZ, chosen by their geographical location to see what bites I can get. Just wondering if anyone has advice on how to write a cover letter for cold calling?

Also as I tend to move around a fair bit, (3 Countries, 13 Employers in ten years, one employer I worked for twice!) I have a CV with nearly two pages of employment history, where I have listed where I worked and what duties I carried out. Any ideas on how the likes of this can be condensed?

Also wondering where to talk about career aspirations, should this be in the CV or the Cover Letter? As I am looking for an employer who can utilize my present skill set and provide me with training and support to further my skills area.

Cheers

woolymammoth · 09-12-2010 05:48PM

kiwipower wrote: »

Also wondering where to talk about career aspirations, should this be in the CV or the Cover Letter?

as far as i'm concerned, a CV is a document for showing off your working histroy, academc background, and skill set. nothing more. Covering letters are a difficult write, and not something i can give sound advice on. just try not to waffle.

kiwipower · 10-12-2010 10:18AM

Thanks for you imput Wooly.
I agree with all your points.
I think it will be a simple cover letter, stating

That I am looking for work in their area, When I would expect to be available for work
What sub areas I already am skilled to work in
Then what sort of skills I would like to develop while working with them

Cheers
KP

Devia · 10-12-2010 03:34PM

Careful when talking about what you'd like. They'll be far more concerned about what you can do for them rather than yourself. In simple terms the letter should convince them that they need you for your skills,

Risteard · 13-12-2010 09:55PM

Hi all, I didn't want to start a new thread so apologies if I should have.

I've sent out a few CVs to places but I never really get any call backs, specifically I handed out a few in the run up to Christmas, so I was wondering if anybody could help me improve the CV.

Obviously one issue I have is a lack of experience working having only had one summer job a few years ago.

Devia · 13-12-2010 11:01PM

Risteard wrote: »

Hi all, I didn't want to start a new thread so apologies if I should have.

I've sent out a few CVs to places but I never really get any call backs, specifically I handed out a few in the run up to Christmas, so I was wondering if anybody could help me improve the CV.

Obviously one issue I have is a lack of experience working having only had one summer job a few years ago.

I don't think its your lack of experience that's the problem, for me its more about your failure to elaborate on it. Have a good think about your past work experiences and write down anything you did that might make the recruiter consider you a more useful candidate. Mention any computer skills you've picked up, any dealings with customers, any examples of teamwork, communication, organisation skills... ect. All this is missing from your CV.

Try be a bit more detailed. You mention organising plans... what kind of plans? What did you do in the post office? what was your actual role in these jobs? If you were some sort of an admin assistant then say so.

No need for specific leaving cert results IMO, just put how many points you got. Also say what degree you're doing (B.A. Business studies) and your expected result as it might be the kind of thing they look for.

In terms of formatting - just keep it simple. I posted a basic format on the first page of this thread which I'd recommend. Keep your font on the smaller side (11), 20 is far too big.

Overall the most important thing is to dig out and highlight skills/experience relative to the job you're applying for and get a good cover letter out to compliment it (see advice posted earlier in thread). Hopefully then you should start getting some interest.

CV Advice Please

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