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Wikileaks merge (Assange loses extradition appeal)

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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,916 ✭✭✭✭orourkeda


    Something unsettling about it that I havent yet worked out


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,360 ✭✭✭Wompa1


    A good exercise in free speech or irresponsible in times of war?

    These are the two arguments I hear most about it.

    It's leaking information that the guy knew was confidential so it's not free speech as much as stealing the U.S governments IP. In my opinion.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,967 ✭✭✭✭mikemac


    Theft of confidential information, the source should go to jail


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    It not perfect but its perhaps the last large enough voice that is showing things as they REALLY are!

    As the internet is becoming more censored, blocked and filtered, its loss will be more felt in years to come as such freedoms are currently dying.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,009 ✭✭✭✭Run_to_da_hills


    Taking the piss.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,351 ✭✭✭Orando Broom


    It's the thinking man's TMZ. It's idle prattle with no filter.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    A good exercise in free speech or irresponsible in times of war?

    These are the two arguments I hear most about it.

    Theres a thread on this already........


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 6,820 ✭✭✭Archeron


    I think its a good name for a new range of incontinence products.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 44 death wish


    A good exercise in free speech or irresponsible in times of war?

    These are the two arguments I hear most about it.

    how do we know the sources on wikileaks are reliable? i think its ridiculous that this sort of crap makes it onto the news


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,883 ✭✭✭smokedeels


    A good exercise in free speech or irresponsible in times of war?

    These are the two arguments I hear most about it.

    Both "wars" are irresponsible and I'm happy if wikileaks manage to undermine and derail them.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    death wish wrote: »
    how do we know the sources on wikileaks are reliable?

    Well theres a guy facing an effective life term for leaking to them, an hysterical reaction from the states and a massive effort to shut them down....If it was shite, why would they bother?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,799 ✭✭✭MyPeopleDrankTheSoup


    Taking the piss.

    wow, when even you disagree with wikileaks, you know it's bad!

    i think it's disgraceful but it's very entertaining


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 44 death wish


    Nodin wrote: »
    Well theres a guy facing an effective life term for leaking to them, an hysterical reaction from the states and a massive effort to shut them down....If it was shite, why would they bother?

    that could be american propaganda for all we know. in all fairness


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 700 ✭✭✭nommm


    This story becomes more convoluted everytime I read about it. In any other court case, the allegations would be dismissed because the prosecution has changed their story so much. The man has been refused bail and refused the right to see what charges have been made against him. This will be remembered as the day any notion of Democracy was thrown out the window. Absolutely sickened by this. As someone said on twitter: ''If Assange was in China doing the same thing, the West would have called him a dissident and given him a Nobel prize"

    It scares me that so few people care about this.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,532 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    Wompa1 wrote: »
    It's leaking information that the guy knew was confidential so it's not free speech as much as stealing the U.S governments IP. In my opinion.

    You cannot "steal" "IP". If something was stolen the US government wouldn't have it any more.

    This is a simple breach of copyright.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    The british judge in the case today, has demanded that he be shown any evidence (and probably will assess the quality of it) before he agrees to take the case any further.

    The write-up this evening from the Times:
    WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange was today remanded in custody after being arrested by officers from Scotland Yard’s extradition unit.

    Mr Assange appeared at City of Westminster Magistrates’ Court this afternoon before District Judge Howard Riddle, who denied him bail on the grounds that there was a risk that he would fail to surrender.

    He was remanded in custody despite offers from Jemima Khan, the sister of Tory MP Zac Goldsmith, film director Ken Loach and journalist John Pilger to act as guarantors. They offered £20,000 each.

    Speaking on the court steps after the hearing, Ms Khan said: “I’m not here to make any kind of judgement on Julian Assange as an individual. I don’t know him and I’ve never met him.

    “I’m here because I believe this is about the principle of the universal right to freedom of information, and our right to be told the truth.”

    Mr Pilger said Mr Assange’s remand was “unjust”, adding: “He has served the cause of justice and democracy for many, many people, but he’s also done an extremely good job of journalism.”

    Mr Assange will appear again before the same court on December 14, and his lawyer, Mark Stephens, also appeared on the court steps to confirm that he would make another bail application.

    “We have seen today Mr Assange remanded in custody. That was unfortunate, but WikiLeaks will continue: Wikileaks is many thousands of journalists reporting around the world,” he said.

    “We are in the rather exotic position of not having seen any of the evidence that Julian Assange is accused of. Under those circumstances it is very difficult to make a bail application. We have heard the judge today saying that he wishes to see the evidence himself.

    “This is going to go viral. Many people will come forward to stand surety.”

    He continued: “I am sure that the British judicial system is robust enough not to be interfered with by politicians. Our judges are impartial and fair, our prosecutors are impartial and fair. I hope to be able to say the same about Swedish prosecutors.”

    The 39-year-old former computer hacker was arrested when he surrendered himself to a central London police station at 9.30am today, by appointment with his lawyers. He went to the station after officers had informed his legal team that a fresh international warrant had come through from Sweden, where he is wanted for questioning over rape allegations.

    Sweden issued its first warrant for Mr Assange’s arrest last month, but it was invalid because officials had failed to fill in the form correctly.

    Kristinn Hrafnsson, WikiLeaks’ spokesman, dismissed his colleague’s arrest as an attack on the freedom of the media. “This will not change our operation,” he said. WikiLeaks would continue to work from London and other locations, the group said.

    Mr Assange’s lawyer, Mark Stephens, said his client was keen to discover the exact nature of the allegations against him so he could clear his name.

    “It’s about time we got to the end of the day and we got some truth, justice and rule of law,” he told Newsnight. “Julian Assange has been the one in hot pursuit to vindicate himself, to clear his good name.

    “He has been trying to meet her (the Swedish prosecutor) to find out what the allegations are he has to face and also the evidence against him, which he still hasn’t seen.

    “He’s not been charged with anything. “We are in the process of making arrangements to meet with the police by consent in order to facilitate the taking of that question and answer that is needed.”

    A Metroplitan Police spokesman said: “Officers from the Metropolitan Police Extradition Unit have this morning arrested Julian Assange on behalf of the Swedish authorities on suspicion of rape.

    “Julian Assange, 39, was arrested on a European Arrest Warrant by appointment at a London police station at 9.30am.

    “He is accused by the Swedish authorities of one count of unlawful coercion, two counts of sexual molestation and one count of rape, all alleged to have been committed in August 2010.”

    Mr Stephens has already said that Mr Assange intends to fight extradition, on the grounds that he could then be handed on to the US, where senior politicians have called for his execution.

    Mr Assange has written a defence of his methods and aims for The Australian newspaper. He begins with the words: “In 1958, a young Rupert Murdoch, then owner and editor of Adelaide’s The News, wrote: `In the race between secrecy and truth, it seems inevitable that truth will always win.’’’

    WikiLeaks, he said, was continuing in that tradition of “fearlessly publishing facts that need to be made public.”

    Quoting a US Supreme Court judgement that said “only a free and unrestrained press can effectively expose deception in government”, Mr Assange continued: “The swirling storm around WikiLeaks today reinforces the need to defend the right of all media to reveal the truth.”

    Pressure continued to mount upon Mr Assange and his organisation when Visa today suspended all payments to WikiLeaks.

    “Visa Europe has taken action to suspend Visa payment acceptance on WikiLeaks’ website pending further investigation into the nature of its business and whether it contravenes Visa operating rules,” the company said.

    PostFinance, the financial arm of the Swiss post office, closed the former computer hacker’s account yesterday. “The Australian citizen provided false information regarding his place of residence during the account opening process,” the bank said. “Assange entered Geneva as his domicile. Upon inspection, this information was found to be incorrect.

    “Assange cannot provide proof of residence in Switzerland and thus does not meet the criteria for a customer relationship with PostFinance.”

    WikiLeaks had been using the account’s details for donations to its cause, but dismissed the account closure as a “technicality”. The accounts frozen contained Mr Assange’s defence fund and personal assets worth €31,000 (£26,000), WikiLeaks said.

    Alex Josty, of the bank, said there would be “no criminal consequences” for misleading the authorities. “That’s his money, he will get his money back,” he added.

    The move is the latest in a game of cat and mouse being played out over the internet as organisations bow to political pressure to sever their links with WikiLeaks, which is releasing some 250,000 secret US diplomatic cables.

    Last week Amazon pulled WikiLeaks from its servers, forcing the whistle-blowers to move to a Swiss domain name, wikileaks.ch.

    On Saturday, Paypal, the online payment site owned by eBay, froze WikiLeaks’ account, saying it was being used for “illegal activity”. WikiLeaks said that Paypal’s decision had cost it €60,000 in donations.

    In France, Eric Besson, the French Industry Minister, demanded that internet regulators removed the site from French servers.

    Yesterday in the House of Commons, Home Secretary Theresa May said that all government departments had been asked by national security adviser Sir Peter Ricketts to review their computer security.

    The Government also condemned one of WikiLeaks’ latest publications, a list of sites around the world of facilities including communications infrastructure, drug manufacturing sites and arms factories which the US considered vital to its national security. Some of these were in the UK.

    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/uk/article2835820.ece


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,395 ✭✭✭Paparazzo


    Are all the journalists that printed wikileak stories being arrested to? After all, they're giving away the secrets too.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,895 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    Sam Vimes wrote: »
    And you wouldn't consider it a possibility that when two women you had consensual sex with are now claiming that it was not consensual, leaving you in a position where it's your word against theirs, that justice has already been "hindered"?

    This is certainly an issue. It is, however, also one which is hardly uncommon in the court systems. How many times has the defense to a rape (or related) charge been 'it was consensual'? How many times, in such circumstances, has there been a third-party witness to the sexual event? Answers are "Frequently," and "almost never".

    I'm fairly sure that the worlds court systems have come to a reasonable process for sorting out that sort of question. It is normal for an accused to say 'she's lying'. It is normal to consider the possibility that she actually is. It is also normal to consider the possibility that people with egos may even honestly believe that they weren't commiting a crime. "Hey, who wouldn't want to have sex with the world-famous Julian Assange?" Even if there is external pressure to review a case, that doesn't mean to say that the case in question is without merit. The Swiss post office account is a perfect example. It's more than likely that if Assange wasn't in the news right now, and Government Target #1, nobody would have checked to see if his Swiss address was valid. That does not take away from the fact, however, that if he placed an invalid address on the application, that he is guilty of the violation, not the Swiss Post Office. The merits of the case have nothing to do with any pressure that may exist to look at the case.
    Do you think it's normal to reopen such a case, which is already suspect?

    External reviews are not unheard of. People are pointing out, correctly, that a 'higher power' overruled a local official. It is possible that that higher power may have some bias. HOWEVER, it is also to be noted that that local official also overruled an earlier decision by a junior: There was initially a charge levelled, the local official rescinded it, the higher power reinstated it. It is thus also possible that the local official who rescinded it happens to be a wikileaks supporter and is biased in favour of Assange.

    The good news is that Sweden is generally considered to be one of the most neutral countries in the world, so if there's any chance of justice being served, Sweden's as good a place as any to see it happen.
    If it was stuff that shouldn't have been public domain, then half a million people should not have had access to it

    Difference between theory and practice. There are so many documents which would require compartmentalisation and classification that it would be a herculean task to do it. You'd have armies of people whose sole job it would be to read every single document, and then assign access to that document to various different groups, and hope that you got all the groups that needed it. It -could- be done, but it's generally easier to either default the information to 'access authorised' or 'access denied'. The problem with the 'access denied' default was demonstrated in September 2001 when the people who needed to know the information weren't given it, due to security concerns.
    If its of no real value, why the hysteria by the US over it....?

    Because it kills the system. As the Indo reported yesterday, the diplomatic corps is looking at a massive shakeup. Other nations aren't talking to them, and career diplomats are being re-assigned from countries where they have caused offense because they made the cardinal sin of reporting the truth to their governments.
    Both "wars" are irresponsible and I'm happy if wikileaks manage to undermine and derail them.

    How much of the current salvo of releases are related to the current operations in Afghanistan and Iraq?

    NTM


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,182 ✭✭✭ronano


    ugh


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,536 ✭✭✭Mark200


    Paparazzo wrote: »
    Are all the journalists that printed wikileak stories being arrested to? After all, they're giving away the secrets too.

    Julian Assange's arrest has nothing to do with wikileaks. Officially.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,379 ✭✭✭Sticky_Fingers


    He's a rapist you know

    Don't trust him, he rapes women, children and stuffed animals

    I heard he's a violent sex offender

    Are the wife and kids safe around this guy?

    If I read Wikileaks maybe I'll turn into a rapist too:eek:

    RAPE, it's a very loaded word. Has anyone seen the actual accusations made against Assange, it seems (from newspaper reports, not vouching for their accuracy) that this is a case of a pair of bunny boilers getting in a huff because Assange dipped his wick in both of them without wearing protection.
    From where I stand (based on the reports) he didn't rape anyone, there was no coercion or force used, the women in question consented and they only got in a huff when they found out they were both sleeping with the same man.
    Some may look down upon his promiscuousness and his sleeping around but there is no criminal case to answer for, this is a total stitch up by the Swedish prosecutor and the case will be thrown out by any half competent judge. The damage to his name is done though, the accusations of rape will hang around him forever.

    Sources:
    http://rixstep.com/1/20100914,00.shtml

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1307137/Supporters-dismissed-rape-accusations-WikiLeaks-founder-Julian-Assange--women-involved-tell-different-story.html


    Form the Daily mail (linked above):
    According to a police source: ‘They had a discussion and decided it would be OK to share the living space, then went out together for dinner.

    'When they got back they had sexual relations, but there was a problem with the condom - it had split.


    'She seemed to think that he had done this deliberately but he insisted that it was an accident.’
    Whatever her views about the incident, she appeared relaxed and untroubled at the seminar the next day where Assange met Woman B, another pretty blonde, also in her 20s, but younger than Woman A.



    What he did not tell her was that the party was being hosted by the woman he had slept with two nights before and whose bed he would probably be sleeping in that night.

    By the time she had arrived home, 46 miles outside Stockholm, and charged her mobile phone, there was a message from Assange asking her to call.

    He was still at the party.

    The next day Woman B tried to call him but his phone was turned off. She eventually spoke to him on the Monday when he agreed to meet her in the evening and suggested they spend the night at her flat.

    She wanted to go to a hotel, but he said he would like to see her home.

    Again she bought his £10 train ticket because he had no cash and said he didn’t want to use his credit card in case his movement was being tracked.

    He spent most of the 45-minute journey surfing the internet on his laptop, reading stories about himself and twittering or texting on his mobile phone.

    ‘He paid more attention to the computer than to me,’ she said bitterly.
    It was dark by the time they arrived in her suburb and the atmosphere between them had cooled.

    ‘The passion and attraction seemed to have disappeared,’ she said.
    Most of what then followed has been blacked out in her statement, except for: ‘It felt boring and like an everyday thing.’
    One source close to the investigation said the woman had insisted he wear a condom, but the following morning he made love to her without one.
    This was the basis for the rape charge. But after the event she seemed unruffled enough to go out to buy food for his breakfast.

    This is the important bit
    The drama took a bizarre and ultimately sensational turn after she called the office of Woman A, whom she had briefly met at the seminar.
    The two women talked and realised to their horror and anger that they had both been victims of his charm.
    The issue of unprotected sex left a fear of disease. It is believed that they both asked him to take a test for STDs and he refused.

    Woman B was especially anxious about the possibility of HIV and pregnancy.
    And it was in this febrile state that the women, who barely knew each other, walked into a police station and began to tell their stories.
    Woman A said afterwards that she had not wanted to press charges but had gone to support the younger woman, who wanted police advice on how to get Assange to take a medical test.
    In any event, the police woman at the reception and two male officers, one from the sex crimes unit, believed there was enough evidence to call the female duty prosecutor, who issued the warrants.
    If anybody thinks this is rape then they need their head examined.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,575 ✭✭✭✭FlutterinBantam


    He's a rapist you know

    Don't trust him, he rapes women, children and stuffed animals

    I heard he's a violent sex offender

    Are the wife and kids safe around this guy?

    If I read Wikileaks maybe I'll turn into a rapist too:eek:

    RAPE, it's a very loaded word. Has anyone seen the actual accusations made against Assange, it seems (from newspaper reports, not vouching for their accuracy) that this is a case of a pair of bunny boilers getting in a huff because Assange dipped his wick in both of them without wearing protection.
    From where I stand (based on the reports) he didn't rape anyone, there was no coercion or force used, the women in question consented and they only got in a huff when they found out they were both sleeping with the same man.
    Some may look down upon his promiscuousness and his sleeping around but there is no criminal case to answer for, this is a total stitch up by the Swedish prosecutor and the case will be thrown out by any half competent judge. The damage to his name is done though, the accusations of rape will hang around him forever.

    Sources:
    http://rixstep.com/1/20100914,00.shtml

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1307137/Supporters-dismissed-rape-accusations-WikiLeaks-founder-Julian-Assange--women-involved-tell-different-story.html


    Form the Daily mail (linked above):







    This is the important bit

    If anybody thinks this is rape then they need their head examined.

    I think we have a vested interest here:rolleyes:


  • Posts: 3,251 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Assuange had an excellent oppertunity to create an organisation that could protect the weak and defenceless against reprisal from forces that would shoot them (I'm thinking Burma, China, Russia, anywhere without press freedom) Instead he decided "let's f*ck up the United States" adn left those who are in danger of dying to their fate. Also, those who would regulate or shut down the internet now have a flag they can rally around and use to forward their closuing aims.

    They will justify shutting down freedoms of the internet with REMEMBER ASSUANGE!!!!!!!

    Gogarty put it best,

    F*CK YOU ASSUANGE, F*CK YOU!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,379 ✭✭✭Sticky_Fingers


    I think we have a vested interest here:rolleyes:
    No, if he raped them then he should be punished. This however is not rape, if the newspapers reports are accurate do you think what he did was rape. I know I'm asking a lot from you to look at the case impartially and without prejudice but give it a go;)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,395 ✭✭✭Paparazzo


    Mark200 wrote: »
    Julian Assange's arrest has nothing to do with wikileaks. Officially.

    Ah right, it was the rape allegations. This is what happens when you just read a headline and none of the story


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Assuange had an excellent oppertunity to create an organisation that could protect the weak and defenceless against reprisal from forces that would shoot them (I'm thinking Burma, China, Russia, anywhere without press freedom) Instead he decided "let's f*ck up the United States" adn left those who are in danger of dying to their fate. Also, those who would regulate or shut down the internet now have a flag they can rally around and use to forward their closuing aims.

    They will justify shutting down freedoms of the internet with REMEMBER ASSUANGE!!!!!!!

    Gogarty put it best,

    F*CK YOU ASSUANGE, F*CK YOU!

    Yea, stuff you ASSUANGE!!!

    As for Assange - rock on and keep going!


  • Posts: 3,251 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Biggins wrote: »
    Yea, stuff you ASSUANGE!!!

    As for Assange - rock on and keep going!

    Dohhhhh! Cheers for that. :rolleyes:

    Still, he had a fantastic idea, but ruined it with his anti-US crusade, and made the web a less free place as a result of his actions. That and he's a really, really really arrogant pr*ck.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,485 ✭✭✭Thrill


    U.S. to Host World Press Freedom Day in 2011

    http://www.boingboing.net/2010/12/07/us-to-host-world-pre.html
    http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2010/12/152465.htm
    The United States is pleased to announce that it will host UNESCO's World Press Freedom Day event in 2011 ... The United States places technology and innovation at the forefront of its diplomatic and development efforts. New media has empowered citizens around the world to report on their circumstances, express opinions on world events, and exchange information in environments sometimes hostile to such exercises of individuals' right to freedom of expression.

    At the same time, we are concerned about the determination of some governments to censor and silence individuals, and to restrict the free flow of information.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,633 ✭✭✭SamHarris


    A number of things for the conspiracy theorists: they say it is a US plot to discredit him, but this is not probable, if you think about it for a second. Wikileaks authority comes not from Julian Assange as some sort of Walter Cronkite, but from the release of documents. If someone were to say "I dont believe him, he is a rapist" it is irrelevant, as he is merely a conduit (not even important, really, given the disseminated nature of Wikileaks), a simple cost-benefit analysis shows how facile the conspiracy theory is.

    I also seriously doubt the US gov. at the moment cares what the public think of wikileaks itself, it's that the information is available to rival/friendly governments thats the problem for them, not that a bunch of people see him as a paragon of free speech. It's sheer huberous really, that people always assume THEY must be the target of a conspiracy theory the concocted in their own heads.

    Another fallacy in the theory is that he is being extradited to Sweden, as though the UK is some sort of haven for him, that if the US government managed to build a case against him (they wont) if he was in the Sweden he would be extradited to the US, but the UK would protect him.

    I don't think he is guilty of a serious crime either but this idea that he should be exempt from being INTERVIEWED by police based on nothing more than that he is disliked by the US government disgusts me. Really, people should be ashamed.


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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,895 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    No, if he raped them then he should be punished. This however is not rape, if the newspapers reports are accurate do you think what he did was rape. I know I'm asking a lot from you to look at the case impartially and without prejudice but give it a go;)

    It ultimately doesn't matter what the word is, the acts either ran afoul of Swedish law or they didn't. I expect that's what the Swedish legal system is going to focus on, rather than whether or not it's called 'rape' on an Irish Internet board.

    NTM


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