Wrote a historical Irish Novel. But nobody wants it... but it's not bad...

Biggins · 07-12-2010 12:34AM

Donal Og O Baelach wrote: »

I wrote a historical Irish novel (4 yrs work), set in 1879, with long flashbacks to the famine. In fairness it is a very large novel (190,000wds).
Took over a year to get an agent. Long story here, no Irish agents could be interested, (there are only about 8) but some of the responses were classic. UK agents - very professional, and eventually settled with a nice chap in London.
He sent it to 3 publishers - one liked it a lot - gave 3 pages of notes and asked for a re-write. I did a re-write (3 months). Re-submitted, and waited...and waited...and waited...
Today, 3 mnths later - got a rejection from the publisher. They said they hadn't time to read it all, but...no - oh I could moan all f~~cking DAY - but... I'll only moan for a half hour here anyway.

What I really want to say about this is - F**k, F**k, F**k, F**k F**k, F**k, F**kF**k F**k, F**k F**k, F**k F**k, F**k F**k, F**k
F**k, F**k F**k, F**k... etc.

Sorry for the rant - Bollox,bollox, bollox. x 1000.
I was just on itunes liking for appropriate music - thought"Best of Nick Cave" might do the trick but.. appears not.
Any suggestions?

Taaaaaankns. ( slides hand into pocket and takes fraudulent insuracne claim)

Have you though about going the Amazon Kindle route for self publishing?

See: https://dtp.amazon.com/mn/signin

Costs you nothing more.

Johro · 07-12-2010 12:34AM

Donal Og O Baelach wrote: »

English Publisher said - "Make it more Irish", I buckled down - called Michae l- Meechaaaael, and stuck in extra Oirish phrases "ta me go maith a chairde".
And, I tipped me hat, and di me best.
Also, i cut this and that.

The only thing I can really complain about is that the publisher sent me 4 pages of notes to cerrect - i corected them, and then, another lady - the fecking editor!! - said, "Eh, why did he change this" after the other lady telling me to.

I think - the only thing for me to say as I bow out, is,

Ah B'lloxcxxxxxx.

'Make it more Irish'? FFS.
Yeah after reading that I'd get p1ssed too.
Personally, I think Michael in Irish just sounds like 'me hole'.

Ali Babba · 07-12-2010 12:35AM

Just change the dates to 2010-2014 and you'll have written what's in store for us all after the budget..........

Millicent · 07-12-2010 12:36AM

Biggins wrote: »

Have you though about going the Amazon Kindle route for self publishing?

GAH -- NO!!! Seriously, no disrespect, Biggins but if his book is good enough for an agent to take on, it's almost certainly good enough to be published. DO NOT SELF-PUBLISH until you check out that website I gave you Donal. Books can take a year of serious querying to sell and sometimes even more. Get specialised advice from people who know the subject.

DublinWriter · 07-12-2010 12:39AM

Donal Og O Baelach wrote: »

But seriously, it's a good book about out history.

Seriously, post an excerpt, a short one.

Trent crushed the rotten, diseased potato in his manly hand, started up at the sky and roared "I WILL AVENGE THEE". He hoisted his shotgun over his shoulder, jaw set in firm resolve. Then he made for The Big House...

Setun · 07-12-2010 12:41AM

Millicent wrote: »

Self-publishing is only a route to go down if you sincerely believe you cannot sell to a publisher. There are also a lot of self-publishing scams out there so it's an avenue that needs to be thoroughly researched before you do. It is very, very rare that a self-pub sells in the quantities that a traditionally published book.

Is it really a much more treacherous route for writers than it is for musicians and film makers?

Banjaxed82 · 07-12-2010 12:45AM

Have you had a really cut-throat editor involved in your novel?

Sounds like you've put a lot of work into the historical aspect of things, but it all boils down to story and character in the end. You confident these aspects are on a par with the historical/factual details of the novel?

Millicent · 07-12-2010 12:45AM

Daddio wrote: »

Is it really a much more treacherous route for writers than it is for musicians and film makers?

There are some books that will never be commercially viable, same as there are some songs/documentaries/films that will never sell. The difference with independent films is that they often get a bit of a cult following and word-of-mouth sales can propel it. I've never heard of that with self-publishing. Those books tend to get lost in the mire and authors often struggle to break even on the costs of vanity publishing. It requires a massive amount of work, self promotion etc. and a lot of self-published work can be ridiculously expensive at the point of retail to cover the costs involved.

I'm just saying if he believes in his book, selling it short after a bit of a knock back is shortsighted.

Biggins · 07-12-2010 12:45AM

Millicent wrote: »

GAH -- NO!!! Seriously, no disrespect, Biggins but if his book is good enough for an agent to take on, it's almost certainly good enough to be published. DO NOT SELF-PUBLISH until you check out that website I gave you Donal. Books can take a year of serious querying to sell and sometimes even more. Get specialised advice from people who know the subject.

True to some extent but then if even one book is self published and it sold to some extent, he would be able to show to an agent that there is a certain percentage of buyers for it (or more - he would still hold the paperback printing rights) and additionally, it would start the ball rolling of getting his name out there in reputation.

Don't be too quick to knock the Kindle route in particular.
There are many, many books out there that are exceptionally good and have made some serious money for authors - besides increasing their profile.
Its now a massive growing market. I have bought a good number of books myself and you also get to download samplers of each book to see if its up your avenue.

Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater too quick. Because of E-reading, self publishing has gone a different route than what had pre-existed before!

Johro · 07-12-2010 12:49AM

I got a friend who had the same problem, a publisher raved about the initial draft, then sent editing notes etc., then when they received the edited version they were much less enthusiastic and finally rejected it. Soul destroying. She did get it out through another publisher though in the end.
Yeah I'd check out the website before I'd do anything. After I sobered up.;)

Millicent · 07-12-2010 12:51AM

Biggins wrote: »

True to some extent but then if even one book is self published and it sold to some extent, he would be able to show to an agent that there is a certain percentage of buyers for it (or more - he would still hold the paperback printing rights) and additionally, it would start the ball rolling of getting his name out there in reputation.

Don't be too quick to knock the Kindle route in particular.
There are many, many books out there that are exceptionally good and have made some serious money for authors - besides increasing their profile.
Its now a massive growing market. I have bought a good number of books myself and you also get to download samplers of each book to see if its up your avenue.

Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater too quick. Because of E-reading, self publishing has gone a different route than what had pre-existed before!

Seriously, an agent will not touch an already published work. He will have voided first rights to it and 99% of the publishing industry will not touch it with a bargepole. I understand your point about e-publishing (I was an editor for an e-pub house for a while) but self-publishing is not something to be taken lightly. Resales to other publishers are exceptionally uncommon after an initial print run, no matter who printed it first.

Ali Babba · 07-12-2010 12:51AM

I think it's bad timing tbh OP, there's so much doom and gloom around at the moment that people don't really need anymore.

mikemac · 07-12-2010 12:58AM

OP, if you ever do get this published and it's a succuss and it's a long way off then look into getting an audiobook done.

I and several I know gets audiobooks. A professional actor/narrator can do your book justice. Liam Neeson has worked on a book for Irish history even.

There are subscription sites like audible.com where people subscribe and get books every month. We pay a monthly fee. Or you can buy them off itunes. They cost more then the book, not exactly cheap!

So get it published and in addition, look into getting an audiobook

Nulty · 07-12-2010 12:59AM

Nulty wrote: »

A book of 190,000 words that is - to quote the author - "not bad".

If you don't believe in it then no one else will. "Not bad" leaves room for improvement though

ejmaztec wrote: »

I suppose the trick is to get them in the most sellable order.

You mean like move the decimal point further left like this:

19,000.0?

or

1,900.00?

It might not even be that bad....maybe its 60% Appendices

Biggins · 07-12-2010 01:00AM

Millicent wrote: »

Seriously, an agent will not touch an already published work. He will have voided first rights to it and 99% of the publishing industry will not touch it with a bargepole. I understand your point about e-publishing (I was an editor for an e-pub house for a while) but self-publishing is not something to be taken lightly. Resales to other publishers are exceptionally uncommon after an initial print run, no matter who printed it first.

Again, I take your point.
At the end of the day, it might not be the best route for himself, but at least its food for thought additionally.
And again I have to mention that in the last year alone, publishing for the Kindle - especially after K3 was released, has rocketed dramatically and that avenue of self publishing is vastly different from what was known as "self-publishing" before, which indeed was a waste in reality.

...At least his options now might be further improving. At least he's informed.

mikemac · 07-12-2010 01:02AM

Ali Babba wrote: »

Just change the dates to 2010-2014 and you'll have written what's in store for us all after the budget..........

In 2007 Irish Economics editor released an book The Best is yet to Come

To be fair, it's a title doesn't do it justice, some of his chapters are on the ball.
Terrible title though

Millicent · 07-12-2010 01:05AM

Biggins wrote: »

Again, I take your point.
At the end of the day, it might not be the best route for himself, but at least its food for thought additionally.
And again I have to mention that in the last year alone, publishing for the Kindle - especially after K3 was released, has rocketed dramatically and that avenue of self publishing is vastly different from what was known as "self-publishing" before, which indeed was a waste in reality.

...At least his options now might be further improving. At least he's informed.

Oh the Kindle is a fantastic avenue for an awful lot of books so I'm sorry if it sounded like I was dismissing that route. Just very wary of vanity press scams associated with self-publishing and worry for anyone that might get scammed by such horrible outfits.

Kindle is a good option but just telling him not to give up hope too soon if he can go the traditional route.

Cavehill Red · 07-12-2010 01:07AM

190,000 is just too long.
Publishers and agents look for about 120,000 max from a first time author.
You have to bear in mind, it's their money on the line, typesetting, printing, publishing, distributing and marketing it. And there is no shortage of people trying to get published.
I'd suggest you speak with your agent where to go with it next, and discuss with them editing it down by about a third. In the meantime, start on the next one.
You wouldn't be the first person to get a book deal with their second or third novel, only to find that the publisher then publishes the rejected first novel later.

Donal Og O Baelach · 07-12-2010 01:08AM

Daddio wrote: »

Is it really a much more treacherous route for writers than it is for musicians and film makers?

It's changing very quickly. Self publishing is like a post on boards.ie - it might be briliiaint - but some see and some don't.

FarmerGreen · 07-12-2010 01:08AM

Biggins wrote: »

Have you though about going the Amazon Kindle route for self publishing?

See: https://dtp.amazon.com/mn/signin

Costs you nothing more.

Well Biggins, I've had a quick read of the book and I can tell you its
' The DOgs O'Baellox' ........

Donal Og O Baelach · 07-12-2010 01:11AM

Banjaxed82 wrote: »

Have you had a really cut-throat editor involved in your novel?

Sounds like you've put a lot of work into the historical aspect of things, but it all boils down to story and character in the end. You confident these aspects are on a par with the historical/factual details of the novel?

I think so.

mikemac · 07-12-2010 01:15AM

Sorry if it was asked before, but do you want to post up a chapter here? Or a few paragraphs?

Well not here but in the creative writing forum? Sounds a good topic for a book

One of my favourite books as a child was Under the Hawthorn Tree by Marita Conlon McKenna.
I'm sure you know of it from your research.

Very sad actually for a child to read, three children traveling across Ireland during the Great Famine

Donal Og O Baelach · 07-12-2010 01:26AM

Cavehill Red wrote: »

190,000 is just too long.
Publishers and agents look for about 120,000 max from a first time author.
You have to bear in mind, it's their money on the line, typesetting, printing, publishing, distributing and marketing it. And there is no shortage of people trying to get published.
I'd suggest you speak with your agent where to go with it next, and discuss with them editing it down by about a third. In the meantime, start on the next one.
You wouldn't be the first person to get a book deal with their second or third novel, only to find that the publisher then publishes the rejected first novel later.

I expected them to say CUT, but hey didn't; I even had a split to 2 novels ready. It's a weasely tricky thing this novel writing business..

Biggins · 07-12-2010 01:30AM

Millicent wrote: »

Oh the Kindle is a fantastic avenue for an awful lot of books so I'm sorry if it sounded like I was dismissing that route. Just very wary of vanity press scams associated with self-publishing and worry for anyone that might get scammed by such horrible outfits.

Kindle is a good option but just telling him not to give up hope too soon if he can go the traditional route.

Yea, I would never recommend the old vanity self publishing route.
Stay away from it like its a plague of the worst kind.

If, just if someone decided to go down the Amazon/other websites (there are many now) E-reader route, there are ways to self promote via the net and other methods.
(see here for example)

One book for example that has sold well, is this one:
http://www.secretofthesands.com/index.html

It has proved to be a very successful book and many including I, am awaiting the sequel.
That said, like every other type of book out there similar maybe, it is the exception to the rule in that where one is successful, there are many more that don't rise to such success.

I hope the writer has better luck the traditional route.
It disheartening to see your hardwork, time and knowledge going to waste and/or dismissed so easily.

4zn76tysfajdxp · 07-12-2010 01:36AM

Biggins wrote: »

It has proved to be a very successful book and many including I, am awaiting the squeal..

Saucy.

Donal Og O Baelach · 07-12-2010 01:39AM

feelingstressed wrote: »

Sorry if it was asked before, but do you want to post up a chapter here? Or a few paragraphs?

Well not here but in the creative writing forum? Sounds a good topic for a book

One of my favourite books as a child was Under the Hawthorn Tree by Marita Conlon McKenna.
I'm sure you know of it from your research.

Very sad actually for a child to read, three children traveling across Ireland during the Great Famine

Ok. Chapter One is in the creative writer forum now. 1879, the year of a near return to the famine and the apparition at Knock.

Biggins · 07-12-2010 01:44AM

Mathew Gifted Thesis wrote: »

Saucy.

DOH!!!

My spelling corrected.

Cavehill Red · 07-12-2010 01:45AM

Donal Og O Baelach wrote: »

I expected them to say CUT, but hey didn't; I even had a split to 2 novels ready. It's a weasely tricky thing this novel writing business..

Get your agent to ask for feedback from the publisher. It might be that it's too long, or it might be that they don't see a market currently. It might be the writing style. Get your agent to seek full feedback from the editor as to why they're passing at this time. That will better inform you.

Dionysus · 07-12-2010 02:29AM

Dónal,

I'm only half-way through this thread but it's clear there's a huge number of bitter people responding to you here. You're being unnecessarily gracious by 'thanking' them, considering they are largely ignorant, obnoxious yokes more interested in putting you down in front of an audience than encouraging you with constructive criticism. Ná bí buartha mar gheall orthu.

I've a huge meas for what you're doing. 1879 seems like a very good year to locate it in. It should have huge potential what with the Famine in Mayo in 1878, the rise of the Land League and secret societies and the post-An Gorta Mór conflicts and controversy over land-robbing.

I strongly suspect that your material is of a very high standard (surmising you've a deep understanding of Ireland at this time). Perhaps you could do with your work being reviewed by many more people, strictly for its writing style? Writing history is a quite different endeavour to writing historical fiction. As with most novels, huge attention to detail, and an ability to facilitate insight from those details, along with a fluid, page-turning style, could be your saving grace.

Your 190,000 words could be serialised into a four-part novel that is, for example, thematically based: post-Famine conflicts over land; the rise of the land league and secret societies; emigration/the 'American Wake'/'Letter from America'; the reorganisation of post An Gorta Mór society (to name four such themes)

Go n-éirí an t-ádh leat.

Millicent · 07-12-2010 02:32AM

Dionysus wrote: »

Your 190,000 words could be serialised into a four-part novel that is, for example, thematically based: post-Famine conflicts over land; the rise of the land league and secret societies; emigration/the 'American Wake'/'Letter from America'; the reorganisation of post An Gorta Mór society (to name four such themes)

A note on this -- if you decide to go that way, make sure each part stands alone. It's not the best idea to try to sell a serial novel to a publisher. Make sure, for the first one at least, that it can stand on its own with maybe enough of a cliffhanger at the end that a publisher wouldn't baulk at a sequel.

Wrote a historical Irish Novel. But nobody wants it... but it's not bad...

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