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Anglo Irish passwords

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  • 28-11-2010 8:41am
    #1
    Qualitymark
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,824 ✭✭✭


    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2010/1110/1224283024474.html

    (From November 10):
    FORMER ANGLO Irish Bank staff who have failed to give the bank passwords for protected documents have delayed a two-year inquiry by the Director of Corporate Enforcement, the High Court heard yesterday.

    Why has this story sunk under? Has it been forgotten because the passwords would reveal exactly who - in the Government, in the civil service, among the great and good - is involved in Anglo Irish?

    The bank is now owned by the State, and so those holding the passwords are refusing to reveal them to their own employers. If the Government wanted the passwords it should certainly be possible to get them from its own employees. If the Government wanted them. If.


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    #2
    robbyvibes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 90 ✭✭robbyvibes


    If it were true the Gardai couldn't recover the passwords, details of the files in question should be released to the public.

    What type of files require passwords? (word document, zip archives, spreadsheet or something else?)

    You cannot assess the technical requirements for recovery when we know absolutely nothing about the type of files or even the software used to protect them, so far, everything i've seen has been speculative.

    Legislation is already in place which requires those being questioned as part of an investigation to provide passwords to files.. so why aren't the people being questioned prosecuted for with holding that information?

    Clearly, the government are as usual, lying to protect themselves.


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    #3
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    robbyvibes wrote: »
    ... Clearly, the government are as usual, lying to protect themselves.

    It's not clear to me. Please join up the dots so that I might understand the basis of your allegation.


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    #4
    maxwell smart
    Registered Users Posts: 1,939 ✭✭✭maxwell smart


    Every system has a backdoor. They need to go to the guys that designed it and get access. I've never come across a system that does not have such a failsafe in a large organisation primarily because people forget their passwords and also for cases where guys get fired or go to a competitor.

    Something a bit fishy OR they just havn't thought of this simple idea!


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    #5
    kippy
    Registered Users Posts: 18,472 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    maxwell smart wrote: »
    Every system has a backdoor. They need to go to the guys that designed it and get access. I've never come across a system that does not have such a failsafe in a large organisation primarily because people forget their passwords and also for cases where guys get fired or go to a competitor.

    Something a bit fishy OR they just havn't thought of this simple idea!

    It depends on the "system".
    It is unlikely software such as truecrypt would have a "Backdoor" as it is not controlled by the organisation in question.


    Sorry, just pointing out the potential technical side of it.

    From a real standpoint we have laws that provide for punishment should people not provide passwords however we also have past history of letting people off who say they have "forgotten" various pieces of important information. (See B. Ahern - Mahon (and other) tribunals.)


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    #6
    Bob_Latchford
    Registered Users Posts: 399 ✭✭Bob_Latchford


    The might also be saying "password" as its easier than "encrypted" for general public.

    Still a sorry state of affairs. If the laws exist to prosecute, then use them


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    #7
    Qualitymark
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,824 ✭✭✭Qualitymark


    I know that some of the people posting on Boards work for (or have worked for) companies that recover lost software from hard drives inaccessible for one reason or another. Have they any comment?


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    #8
    Bob_Latchford
    Registered Users Posts: 399 ✭✭Bob_Latchford


    Good encryption is good encryption because it cant be broken.

    Arrest them prosecute and jail is easier than than a technical solution. imo


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    #9
    kippy
    Registered Users Posts: 18,472 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    Qualitymark wrote: »
    I know that some of the people posting on Boards work for (or have worked for) companies that recover lost software from hard drives inaccessible for one reason or another. Have they any comment?

    Thats a completely different kettle of fish to encryption.
    Recovering deleted or "lost" data is far easier than breaking advanced encryption algorithms.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Encryption
    http://news.techworld.com/security/3228701/fbi-hackers-fail-to-crack-truecrypt/

    Truecrypt is a free piece of software which is relatively easy to use.



    However as someone has posted we have no details of what these files are and how they are "password" protected but based on limited detail I suspect something outside the control of the IT department, such as truecrypt has been used.

    Again, our past history of prosecution in these cases is poor - I said that would come back to bite us at some stage (letting the bould aherne off with it)


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    #10
    ntlbell
    Registered Users Posts: 16,288 ✭✭✭✭ntlbell


    Qualitymark wrote: »
    I know that some of the people posting on Boards work for (or have worked for) companies that recover lost software from hard drives inaccessible for one reason or another. Have they any comment?

    It's impossible to give any reasonable comment from a technical point of view when there are little or no facts.

    This is not related to recovering "lost data" it's not "lost" as someone mentioned all ready it comes down to how the data was encrypted. I've been to a lot of talks from the cyber crime squad based on this I wouldn't hold out much hope :)


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    #11
    soundbyte
    Registered Users Posts: 445 ✭✭soundbyte


    My understanding is that they mean simple system login names and passes. The first to launch the windows type scenario which allows access to the bank intranet, email etc and the second level login is for accessing account details etc.


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    #12
    ntlbell
    Registered Users Posts: 16,288 ✭✭✭✭ntlbell


    soundbyte wrote: »
    My understanding is that they mean simple system login names and passes. The first to launch the windows type scenario which allows access to the bank intranet, email etc and the second level login is for accessing account details etc.

    If this was the case why can't any of the sys admins be made provide the details?


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    #13
    pah
    Registered Users Posts: 3,471 ✭✭✭pah


    ntlbell wrote: »
    It's impossible to give any reasonable comment from a technical point of view when there are little or no facts.

    This is not related to recovering "lost data" it's not "lost" as someone mentioned all ready it comes down to how the data was encrypted. I've been to a lot of talks from the cyber crime squad based on this I wouldn't hold out much hope :)

    Agreed, also a password might be required to unlock a Truecrypt volume but a key can also be used - anything from a file such as a photo or even mp3 can be a keyfile.

    I personally have a truecrypt volume on my memory stick and the keyfile to unlock the volume on another stick, ;)


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    #14
    soundbyte
    Registered Users Posts: 445 ✭✭soundbyte


    ntlbell wrote: »
    If this was the case why can't any of the sys admins be made provide the details?

    Exactly. Even a lackey from Siemens can do it.


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    #15
    kippy
    Registered Users Posts: 18,472 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    Its fairly obvious that it is not a straightforward Anglo IT system password.
    If it was then this country really is a joke.


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    #16
    robbyvibes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 90 ✭✭robbyvibes


    P. Breathnach wrote: »
    It's not clear to me. Please join up the dots so that I might understand the basis of your allegation.

    The basis was outlined in the post.

    I would recommend reading my post before promoting the silly notion "it's very difficult" having no knowledge of the pertinent technical details.

    IF you have the technical details, please share them and we can generate relevant statistics on how much time it would take to recover a password.

    To briefly make my point, someone posted before that there are 70 quadrillion possible combinations for 56-bit DES which is correct although DES is so old now, it's unlikely to be used..but let's use it for example.

    worst case scenario, using a home PC with 10 million keys a second.
    Min password length = 1
    Max password length = 7
    Alphabet length = 255
    Number of computers/processors = 1
    Total combinations: 70,386,233,652,806,655

    ETA: 223 years, 70 days, 13 hours, 9 minutes, 25 seconds

    However, in our case, the user is using his keyboard, consisting of ~94 alpha-numeric characters and symbols.
    Min password length = 1
    Max password length = 7
    Alphabet length = 94
    Number of computers/processors = 1
    Total combinations: 65,545,047,154,954

    ETA: 0 years, 75 days, 20 hours, 41 minutes, 44 seconds

    those are just using a home pc..what if we used a super computer with 15,000 CPU in it?
    Min password length = 1
    Max password length = 7
    Alphabet length = 94
    Number of computers/processors = 15,000
    Total combinations: 65,545,047,154,954

    ETA: 0 years, 0 days, 0 hours, 7 minutes, 16 seconds

    The above are just examples of what's possible.

    Unless we know about the encryption used to protect the files, there's no way of knowing how long it would take to recover a key for an encrypted file.


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    #17
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    robbyvibes wrote: »
    The basis was outlined in the post.

    I would recommend reading my post before promoting the silly notion "it's very difficult" having no knowledge of the pertinent technical details....

    And I would recommend reading my post, because you did not deal with the specific point I raised.


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    #18
    robbyvibes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 90 ✭✭robbyvibes


    P. Breathnach wrote: »
    And I would recommend reading my post, because you did not deal with the specific point I raised.

    It was a bit vague, maybe you could join the dots and clarify for me? :rolleyes:

    Given the track record of FF and this useless, absolutely worthless government, forgive me for my reluctance to believe anything they say anymore.

    The big fiction here is that FF are telling Irish people the truth about Anglo.

    Maybe you believe them even after everything that's happened?
    Forgive me for assuming you're part of the same useless system.

    I don't believe a word they say.


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    #19
    kippy
    Registered Users Posts: 18,472 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    P. Breathnach wrote: »
    And I would recommend reading my post, because you did not deal with the specific point I raised.

    I suppose P, the issue you have is you cannot allow someone to make the link between this and a potential government coverup. Thats a fair thing to do.
    There probably isnt a government coverup and there probably is (as I have shown, and given the right circumstances) a reason why these files cannot be opened.

    However, people have every right to feel aggrieved that the state are not able to open these files and even moreso that those who set the passwords on these files will not disclose them.

    Then we have the issues around whether or not these people will get prosecuted for withholding information, perverting the course of justice (or whatever law we have for that) etc etc etc.

    What will happen here is what has happened for years in this country. A lack of wanting to enforce white collar crime laws.
    As I said, we let Bertie off with forgetting, every low life criminal and indeed white collar criminal can expect to get the same treatment for "forgetting".


    (I amnt backing up the dot joining your requested by the way, its a very tenious link at best)


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    #20
    robbyvibes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 90 ✭✭robbyvibes


    Not directed at anyone specifically but I'm not looking for anyone's approval on my own opinion.

    The technical details of the encrypted files have not been made public so it's impossible to unequivocally publish the length of time required to recover the passwords.

    I do not believe anything the government say anymore and I cannot fathom why anyone else would given the history of FF.

    If you want to support a corrupt government which has lied consistently to protect itself and are about to decimate your country with the help of IMF, that's entirely up to you.


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    #21
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    robbyvibes wrote: »
    ...
    Forgive me for assuming you're part of the same useless system....

    No, I will not.

    That is contemptible.


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    #22
    kippy
    Registered Users Posts: 18,472 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    robbyvibes wrote: »
    Not directed at anyone specifically but I'm not looking for anyone's approval on my own opinion.

    The technical details of the encrypted files have not been made public so it's impossible to unequivocally publish the length of time required to recover the passwords.

    I do not believe anything the government say anymore and I cannot fathom why anyone else would given the history of FF.

    If you want to support a corrupt government which has lied consistently to protect itself and are about to decimate your country with the help of IMF, that's entirely up to you.
    The point is, its not just the government who are saying the time required to "crack" the passwords is very high, there is on poster here who has spoken to the organisation who are looking at this and they have said the same thing..........

    What you should be annoyed about is the fact that white collar crime has not and does not look to be getting punished in this country, which is a totally seperate point to the length of time required to "break" this encryption.

    Yeah, we're all pissed at what has gone on and indeed the complicity of FF in it, however getting two issues muddied up is not going to help.


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    #23
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    kippy wrote: »
    I suppose P, the issue you have is you cannot allow someone to make the link between this and a potential government coverup....

    It's more that I dislike important issues becoming obscured by intemperate attitudinising.

    It is wrong that people who were employed in Anglo-Irish conceal files that belong to that bank, and which are required for the conduct of a Garda investigation. It is a fair bet that those withholding passwords have their own reasons for doing so, and I suspect that their reasons are ignoble.

    To go from that base to it being an instance of the government telling lies is a big leap. Unless it is shown to be a reasonable comment, it simply distorts an important issue.


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    #24
    kippy
    Registered Users Posts: 18,472 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    P. Breathnach wrote: »
    It's more that I dislike important issues becoming obscured by intemperate attitudinising.

    It is wrong that people who were employed in Anglo-Irish conceal files that belong to that bank, and which are required for the conduct of a Garda investigation. It is a fair bet that those withholding passwords have their own reasons for doing so, and I suspect that their reasons are ignoble.

    To go from that base to it being an instance of the government telling lies is a big leap. Unless it is shown to be a reasonable comment, it simply distorts an important issue.
    I would agree.


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    #25
    Slick50
    Registered Users Posts: 1,062 ✭✭✭Slick50


    Why is "breaking the encryption" necessary? Why hasn't anybody been prosecuted for with holding information. Surely these files are being accessed on a daily basis, as Anglo is currently a going concern, so they can't even claim to have "forgotten" them.

    The full force of the law was brought to bare on a few citizens up in mayo, who had the audacity to show contempt for the law, and jailed indefinitely for their cheek.

    Who is heading up this "investigation", and why hasn't he been fired for gross incompetence, or at best inaction.

    If there was any political will to resolve this issue, you could bet your house and shirt on it, it would be complete by now. So that begs the question, why hasn't it.


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    #26
    sunshinediver
    Closed Accounts Posts: 170 ✭✭sunshinediver


    Slick50 wrote: »
    Why is "breaking the encryption" necessary? Why hasn't anybody been prosecuted for with holding information. Surely these files are being accessed on a daily basis, as Anglo is currently a going concern, so they can't even claim to have "forgotten" them.

    The full force of the law was brought to bare on a few citizens up in mayo, who had the audacity to show contempt for the law, and jailed indefinitely for their cheek.

    Who is heading up this "investigation", and why hasn't he been fired for gross incompetence, or at best inaction.

    If there was any political will to resolve this issue, you could bet your house and shirt on it, it would be complete by now. So that begs the question, why hasn't it.

    I'm glad someone else sees this. The technical discussion of a computers ability to crack the passwords is really only a side issue. At the moment the political will doesn't exist to investigate these files. You can be certain that whatever is in them neither Anglo or the government want people to know. The fact this story is receiving little media attention (much of which surprisingly is still pro government) further highlights this point.

    A full investigation into Anglo will more than likely implicate many of our government members, this is worth bearing in mind when asking questions about why this investigation is taking so long.


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    #27
    kippy
    Registered Users Posts: 18,472 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    sunshinediver wrote: »
    I'm glad someone else sees this. The technical discussion of a computers ability to crack the passwords is really only a side issue. At the moment the political will doesn't exist to investigate these files. You can be certain that whatever is in them neither Anglo or the government want people to know. The fact this story is receiving little media attention (much of which surprisingly is still pro government) further highlights this point.

    A full investigation into Anglo will more than likely implicate many of our government members, this is worth bearing in mind when asking questions about why this investigation is taking so long.

    I have to be honest here and ask what the fudge would happen if what was in these files was something the government did not want us to know?

    As I said before, we dont exactly punish wrong doing by certain sectors of our society.


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    #28
    Dorcha
    Closed Accounts Posts: 138 ✭✭Dorcha


    ntlbell wrote: »
    It's impossible to give any reasonable comment from a technical point of view when there are little or no facts.

    This is not related to recovering "lost data" it's not "lost" as someone mentioned all ready it comes down to how the data was encrypted. I've been to a lot of talks from the cyber crime squad based on this I wouldn't hold out much hope :)

    I understand from the reports that the files are being decrypted using trial and error, but this is obviously taking much longer than if they had the passwords.


    The whole thing is a farce. Those people are holding on to something that is not their property (the passwords). Why haven't they been taken to court and made to produce them, or else be jailed?


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    #29
    ntlbell
    Registered Users Posts: 16,288 ✭✭✭✭ntlbell


    Dorcha wrote: »
    I understand from the reports that the files are being decrypted using trial and error, but this is obviously taking much longer than if they had the passwords.


    The whole thing is a farce. Those people are holding on to something that is not their property (the passwords). Why haven't they been taken to court and made to produce them, or else be jailed?

    It's very difficult to bring someone to court based on something they've "forgotten"

    Trying to prove they haven't forgotten would be nigh impossible


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    #30
    Bob_Latchford
    Registered Users Posts: 399 ✭✭Bob_Latchford


    ntlbell wrote: »
    It's very difficult to bring someone to court based on something they've "forgotten"

    Trying to prove they haven't forgotten would be nigh impossible

    Its in public interest that they are arrested charged and prosecuted. Get 11 jurors up in court to decide. Get whoever it is in court, get whatever these files are disclosed in open.

    If they are found not guilty due to lack of evidence fair enough.


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    #31
    ntlbell
    Registered Users Posts: 16,288 ✭✭✭✭ntlbell


    Bob_Latchford wrote: »
    Its in public interest that they are arrested charged and prosecuted. Get 11 jurors up in court to decide. Get whoever it is in court, get whatever these files are disclosed in open.

    If they are found not guilty due to lack of evidence fair enough.

    arrest them for what? we have no idea who these people are, what the files are what's in them and even if they've done anything wrong.

    Don't get me wrong here, I want to see this thing wrapped up as quickly as possible and if people comitted crimes to be punished.

    What is the charge ?

    I would prefer they took their time gathered the correct evidence and prosecuted rather than doing anything rash and people getting off because of our recklesness.

    It's not as straight forward as you seem to be making out


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