Cén fáth a raibh Gaeilge bhaintear as an ardán Dunlaoghaire? [Read edit in 1st post]

mackerski · 18-08-2010 9:07pm

So far nobody seems to have mentioned Dublin Bus online and bus stop timetables. The route descriptions on these timetables have no English at all, which is inexcusable in a city where most people can't speak Irish.

Victor · 18-08-2010 9:35pm

mackerski wrote: »

So far nobody seems to have mentioned Dublin Bus online and bus stop timetables. The route descriptions on these timetables have no English at all, which is inexcusable in a city where most people can't speak Irish.

They do have English. Then they have the full list of fare stages in English.

Breezer · 19-08-2010 3:12pm

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

if you are doing 120 past a road sign, the last thing you want is to be trying to figure the Irish from the English, if you don't speak either too well.

Hold on, there are likely to be several places listed on a sign. If you know to watch out for "Galway" I don't see how also having "Gaillimh" on the sign is any more confusing than also having "Castlebar" and "Sligo" on it. You're still going to look for "Galway" and it doesn't matter whether or not you speak the language well enough to pronounce it or use it in a grammatically correct sentence. If you can't manage that at 120km/h (the same limit as exists in Belgium and Switzerland) then you shouldn't be driving on a motorway.

Now, a different colour for the Irish would help, provided it was used consistently and was equally legible. There was a thread either here or in Motors a few months ago with mock-ups of signs using yellow for Irish and white for English, in the same 'Transport' font used in the UK. No all-caps, no italics, just consistent use of one colour per language. Most people agreed it would work extremely well, even at 120km/h.

IE has nearly gotten this right, as it happens. Unfortunately, as has been pointed out, the orange used for Irish is illegible at night, and the languages are on the wrong side of each other. The only time I've ever seen a tourist confused about Irish on signs was actually an English woman on the DART. Her problem? She kept reading the Irish on the signs, and not noticing the English, because she had spent time in Wales, and had trained herself to simply ignore the Welsh, which is always placed above the English (as Irish usually is here).

The languages used shouldn't cause any problem. People can learn a system. Like everything else on Irish roads, rail or whatever, it's the inconsistent application of that system that causes problems.

devnull · 19-08-2010 3:16pm

Victor wrote: »

They do have English. Then they have the full list of fare stages in English.

In a lot of cases on a lot of timetables the stop info at the top circle is different from that at the bottom circle, it is not a translation.

In addition the older style timetables which 90% of the stops in the city have apart from the city centre, include only Irish.

foggy_lad · 19-08-2010 6:16pm

I just noticed today that the main platform in Carlow station does not have bilingual signs while the other waterford bound platform has both Irish and English along the yellow line.

That username is already in use. · 19-08-2010 6:53pm

Breezer wrote: »

There was a thread either here or in Motors a few months ago with mock-ups of signs using yellow for Irish and white for English, in the same 'Transport' font used in the UK. No all-caps, no italics, just consistent use of one colour per language. Most people agreed it would work extremely well, even at 120km/h.

Garrett Reil did some research on traffic signage. Very interesting read. link.

..and "signs showing the effects of ‘halation’ ":

Breezer wrote: »

IE has nearly gotten this right, as it happens. Unfortunately, as has been pointed out, the orange used for Irish is illegible at night, and the languages are on the wrong side of each other.

IÉ have been completely lost over the past 3 years in relation to signage and the regulations.

At first, they rolled out these signs (2006/7 ?):

a. Irish should come first
b. Irish is barely legible under sodium lighting.

(really, they could not have picked a worse colour)

And for some strange reason, at Pearse Station, they erected these signs:

..and then ripped them all down shortly after and replaced them with these:

..which are still in breach of the regulations because:

a. wrong spelling in Irish (missing fada)
b. Irish is not as prominent as English (italics).

Then, it seems that IÉ swapped the language order around in 2009 to comply with the regulations. Examples:

Which are still in breach of the regulations because of the sodium lighting issue.

Regarding the sodium lighting issue, I have not had any answer from IÉ, however, it would appear that they are aware of it and are no longer using orange text on new signage. Also, from ACT:

An Coimisin&#233 wrote: »

The question you have raised of the effect of artificial lighting on the relative visibility of the Irish text in orange in comparison with the darker coloured text in English on signs erected by Iarnród Éireann, does appear to be worthy of consideration, given the evidence of the photograph you drew our attention to.

Finally, it seems that IÉ have eventually started to follow the regulations correctly for new signage errected in 2010. The new Clongriffin DART station for example:

But not quite. The station entrance signage does not follow the regulations:

AGAIN:
a. wrong spelling in Irish (should be Stáisiún Chluain Ghrífín)
b. Irish is not as prominent as English (italics).

Whatever about the italics, the spelling errors are inexcusable. This sign should be replaced immediately.

Has anyone seen any other new signage erected by IÉ this year that does follow the regulations?

Stonewolf · 19-08-2010 7:48pm

Again, all of those signs are perfectly legible, they do not need to have money wasted replacing them.

That username is already in use. · 19-08-2010 9:00pm

Stonewolf wrote: »

they do not need to have money wasted replacing them.

You have misunderstood.

I am not suggesting that they all be replaced. The sodium lighting issue and the incorrect order of both languages is unfortunate, but nobody could expect IÉ to replace hundreds of signs because of that. It would indeed be a complete waste of money and resources.

I am, however, raising this issue for the attention of IÉ for future signage, and for people on this forum that are interested in public signage and the regulations applied to them.

Stonewolf wrote: »

Again, all of those signs are perfectly legible

The signs with incorrect Irish spellings are not "perfectly legible". These signs must be replaced as per the regulations, and I will see to it.

markpb · 19-08-2010 9:04pm

That username is already in use. wrote: »

The signs with incorrect Irish spellings are not "perfectly legible". These signs must be replaced as per the regulations, and I will see to it.

A missing fada is not going to stop someone knowing where they are. I might not agree with these regulations but even if I did, you're being excessively pedantic.

mackerski · 19-08-2010 9:07pm

That username is already in use. wrote: »

The signs with incorrect Irish spellings are not "perfectly legible". These signs must be replaced as per the regulations, and I will see to it.

Sure, good idea. We don't mind paying, do we lads? Eh, lads????

Cookie_Monster · 19-08-2010 9:11pm

That username is already in use. wrote: »

The signs with incorrect Irish spellings are not "perfectly legible". These signs must be replaced as per the regulations, and I will see to it.

are you going to pay for it too or is it just going to be more wasted tax money?

mackerski · 19-08-2010 9:39pm

markpb wrote: »

A missing fada is not going to stop someone knowing where they are. I might not agree with these regulations but even if I did, you're being excessively pedantic.

To be fair, he's not being all that pedantic. I stopped looking for errors after the first one, but it was a missing "i". If (big if) you're going to erect Irish signs, you should do it right the first time. And if it's too expensive to find somebody who knows how to spell in Irish then you may have your first clue of how valuable the sigs are in the first place.

That username is already in use. · 19-08-2010 9:48pm

markpb wrote: »

A missing fada is not going to stop someone knowing where they are. I might not agree with these regulations but even if I did, you're being excessively pedantic.

I agree with you about the missing fada, of course, and I would not see it as a reason to have any signage replaced.

However, it is just one example of the thousands of spelling errors and terrible Irish grammar seen on all signage, not only with IÉ, but all around the country.

I just find it inexcusable that new signage, be it by IÉ or others, is still not spell checked or confirmed by a fluent Irish speaker.

Glaring spelling errors and atrocious grammar are an issue for me and other Irish speakers.

I fully respect your opinions about the regulations, but you should also respect ours, and what we are asking for is hardly unreasonable.

New signage with spelling errors in Irish should be replaced. And by "replaced" I mean, patching the sign with the correct spelling. By doing this after the fact, government bodies with know to be careful before lashing up signs without checking the Irish.

In relation to the DCC wayfinding signage (and other DCC signage), I do believe they should be replaced as I now know that "somebody" in DCC was knowingly contravening the regulations, thinking nothing would be done about it. I will be doing something about it.

Judgement Day · 19-08-2010 9:56pm

Nice picture of the sign at Ballycullane - it's only a few years ago that there was no sign of any description at that station in any language.

Jehuty42 · 19-08-2010 9:58pm

That username is already in use. wrote: »

I just find it inexcusable that new signage, be it by IÉ or others, is still not spell checked or confirmed by a fluent Irish speaker.

As has been pointed out, the fact that fluent Irish speakers cannot be easily found speaks volumes about how many people will be reading the Irish translations on signs anyway.
I don't know how you can defend it when there is no one who speaks Irish who is not also fluent in English- signs to the public should try and be legible to the most common denominator, which is English-speakers. Lacking the Irish translation or having that translation in error has no effect on anyone's understanding of the sign- they are perfectly capable of reading the English.

But people like you insist on reading the Irish when you have no good reason to.

That username is already in use. · 19-08-2010 10:47pm

Jehuty42 wrote: »

But people like you insist on reading the Irish when you have no good reason to.

Hi Jehuty,

I recommend that you contact your local TD and request the removal of these particular regulations from the Official Languaes Act.

Until then, "people like me" will continue to exercise the rights afforded to them by the OLA.

Jehuty42 · 19-08-2010 10:53pm

That username is already in use. wrote: »

Hi Jehuty,

I recommend that you contact your local TD and request the removal of these particular regulations from the Official Languaes Act.

Until then, "people like me" will continue to exercise the rights afforded to them by the OLA.

I have done similar, to all my local TDs, stating that I would like to remove the constitutional recognition of Irish- in my eyes it is a historical language useful for scholarly research, but for better or for worse, it died out and has no modern relevance. But I am too jaded to expect anything to come of it, such is the state of democracy in this country.

Anyway, I know that I can't change your mind and you can't change mine, so we shall leave it there.

That username is already in use. · 19-08-2010 10:59pm

Jehuty42 wrote: »

I have done similar, to all my local TDs, stating that I would like to remove the constitutional recognition of Irish- in my eyes it is a historical language useful for scholarly research, but for better or for worse, it died out and has no modern relevance. But I am too jaded to expect anything to come of it, such is the state of democracy in this country..

This is a discussion about public transport signage and OLA regulations.

If you wish to voice your personal opinions about the Irish Language, please post it to the Irish language or Politics forum.

Thank you

19-08-2010 11:43pm

Jehuty42 wrote: »

As has been pointed out, the fact that fluent Irish speakers cannot be easily found speaks volumes about how many people will be reading the Irish translations on signs anyway.

I suppose one of the problems is the fact that placenames have been "lost & rediscovered" can sometimes have more than one spelling on them, there is a townland near here that had the spelling changed when they renewed the road signs recently.

mackerski · 19-08-2010 11:53pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I suppose one of the problems is the fact that placenames have been "lost & rediscovered" can sometimes have more than one spelling on them, there is a townland near here that had the spelling changed when they renewed the road signs recently.

They appear to have added 1km to the road too.

Stonewolf · 20-08-2010 2:20am

mackerski wrote: »

They appear to have added 1km to the road too.

and downgraded it from a national route

Breezer · 20-08-2010 2:22am

Deleted User wrote: »

I suppose one of the problems is the fact that placenames have been "lost & rediscovered" can sometimes have more than one spelling on them, there is a townland near here that had the spelling changed when they renewed the road signs recently.

Yep, this is pretty common. Close to me you have "Sandycove" translated correctly on one sign as "Cuas an Ghainimh," and within a 1km radius you also have "Cuas na Gainimhe," "Cuis an Ghainimh," "Sinn Le Gó" and "Sáinn Le Gó." Mind you, in Enniscrone they also manage to give various versions in English, including "Eniscrone" and "Iniscrone." Not to mention Dún Laoghaire and its various incarnations of "Dun Laoghaire" (I'm guilty of this one myself when writing in English), "Dun Laoire" and "Dunleary."

Is it really that hard? Seriously, how hard can it be?

mackerski · 20-08-2010 2:37am

Breezer wrote: »

Close to me you have "Sandycove" translated correctly on one sign as "Cuas an Ghainimh,"

Define correct - which came first, Sandycove or Cuas an Ghainimh?

That username is already in use. · 20-08-2010 3:39am

mackerski wrote: »

which came first, Sandycove or Cuas an Ghainimh?

http://www.logainm.ie/Image.aspx?PlaceID=1165967&Url=1165967_1.jpg

Study the cards. The Irish came first.

By the by, Dalkey comes from "Deilgøy"

Deilg = Irish for thorn(y)
øy = Old Norse for island

Deilgøy = Dalkey = Thorny Island.

mackerski · 20-08-2010 4:24am

That username is already in use. wrote: »

http://www.logainm.ie/Image.aspx?PlaceID=1165967&Url=1165967_1.jpg

Study the cards. The Irish came first.

Interesting cards, though I failed to find any date attributed to what is considered to be the correct form. Other than one in the 1960s. That said, some of that handwriting is even worse than mine. What date did I miss?

The reason I strongly suspected an English original name was partly down to where it is, but mostly because it seems to be a "proper" English description of the place rather than a corruption of an Irish form. None of which rules out a completely different Irish name, of course, predating the current English one.

foggy_lad · 20-08-2010 11:08am

Will an nás be reverted back to nás na ríogh? Several other irish placenames have been butchered like this with anglocised versions will they be changed back?

dubhthach · 20-08-2010 11:58am

Breezer wrote: »

Not to mention Dún Laoghaire and its various incarnations of "Dun Laoghaire" (I'm guilty of this one myself when writing in English), "Dun Laoire" and "Dunleary."

Is it really that hard? Seriously, how hard can it be?

Dún Laoire is technically correct after the spelling reform that came in with the new standard in the 50's. However the spelling of the town with the pre-standard version was enshrined in legislation, i would change it personally as it better reflection of the prn of the name. Related example the spelling of the surname Leary changed from:
Ó Laoghaire --> Ó Laoire

Run_to_da_hills · 20-08-2010 12:41pm

I noted new tiles on the main platform at Connelly this morning. will this be bilingual?

That username is already in use. · 26-11-2010 6:21pm

"Both colours are considered to be of equal prominence." - Dublin City Council

For anyone who is interested, an investigation by An Coimisinéir Teanga found that those involved with the wayfinding scheme in the Planning & Economic Development Department in the Dublin City Council were breaching the regulations by using colour to give English more prominence over Irish.

As all 683 signs have already been delivered, none will be replaced, but the DCC were strongly warned not to contravene the regulations again by using materials or colours to give English more prominence over Irish for future signage.

Ironically, had the DCC just followed the regulations in the first place and used the same colour for both languages, the consultancy and manufacturing costs would have been less.

I have the invoice to JCDecaux for manufacturing costs if anyone's interested:

683 re-vinyl finger panels
Strip old vinyl - heat existing vinyl and carefully remove by hand to prevent damage to paint.
Cut new vinyl text graphics (2 colours) and hand apply to both faces panel.
Wrap individual panels and pack in crate.
€38,248 (€56 ea.)

Collection/Delivery: €1,650

Grand total: €39,898

I don't have the invoices for the design and consultancy costs, but I imagine they would be in the region of €10,000.

And that is that.

Let that be a lesson to any government bodies that try to deliberately contravene the regulations.

markpb · 26-11-2010 6:44pm

That username is already in use. wrote: »

As all 683 signs have already been delivered, none will be replaced, but the DCC were strongly warned not to contravene the regulations again by using materials or colours to give English more prominence over Irish for future signage.

Let that be a lesson to any government bodies that try to deliberately contravene the regulations.

Eh, yeah, that was a terrible punishment - a finger wagging

Cén fáth a raibh Gaeilge bhaintear as an ardán Dunlaoghaire? [Read edit in 1st post]

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