we love heroin

FatherLen · 24-11-2010 04:33PM

karlog wrote: »

With are stupid laws this is no surprise.

what?

chin_grin · 24-11-2010 05:41PM

FatherLen wrote: »

what?

With. They're stupid laws.

CrazyRabbit · 24-11-2010 05:43PM

CrazyRabbit wrote: »

For Class A drugs;

Automatic life sentences for drug users unless they reveal their supplier and testify against them. If they do this, then the sentence should be reduced to treatment and weekly drug tests afterwards, with a prison sentence for re-using.

Automatic life sentences for suppliers, reduced to 5 years if they reveal their supplier and testify against them (if possible).

Death penalty for manufacturers/growers/importers.

For other illegal drugs, treatment and random testing. Re-using = significant fine. Re-using again = prison sentence.

That'll put a stop to it.

strobe wrote: »

[sarcasm]Genius! Are you like, some kind of science doctor?[/sacasm]

Augmerson wrote: »

Incredibly niave, won't work at all. I've been saying this for years. Longer, harsher sentences will not stop people from using, selling or distributing drugs. You could give people the death penalty for smoking a spliff, it wouldn't matter, people will still find a way to get out of their heads.

It's not about tougher sentences. If anything it would greatly reduce the number of people in prisons. It's about giving one hell of an incentive for drug users and suppliers to give up their sources and cooperate fully. The only way to remove these drugs is to cut off the source.

Pace2008 · 24-11-2010 05:47PM

CrazyRabbit wrote: »

For Class A drugs;

Automatic life sentences for drug users unless they reveal their supplier and testify against them. If they do this, then the sentence should be reduced to treatment and weekly drug tests afterwards, with a prison sentence for re-using.

Automatic life sentences for suppliers, reduced to 5 years if they reveal their supplier and testify against them (if possible).

Death penalty for manufacturers/growers/importers.

For other illegal drugs, treatment and random testing. Re-using = significant fine. Re-using again = prison sentence.

That'll put a stop to it.

Under your proposed system, I will receive life imprisonment if I do not condemn the golf course in which I picked my mushrooms to the same fate.

ScumLord · 24-11-2010 05:48PM

I don't think these storeys really take into account Ireland's size. These numbers may look worse than they actually are, lets say to set up a drug dealing system it takes 1000 people, to import, deal and use the drug in enough quantity to support a black market. That 1000 people is going to seem like a larger group in a small population. We're also a closer community of people in Ireland so it's easier for these things to spread.

CrazyRabbit · 24-11-2010 05:48PM

Augmerson wrote: »

Some states in the US have very harsh sentences for drug related offences and it is still no deterrent.

There's something like over 1 million people in jail in the US at the moment - now obviously not all of those people are in there for "drug crimes" but a huge number would be. Imagine if we imposed the same sentences here, our prison population would explode and even then you'd still be able to get Heroin in prison ffs.

It's very true that harsh sentences alone have little effect. That's pretty obvious. The US justice system is all about punishment and very little about rehabilitation or tackling the source of issues. It's a great example of what not to do.

For drugs, it's the importers/growers/manufacturers that need to be removed from society. Users are secondary (although they contribute a lot to other crimes).

CrazyRabbit · 24-11-2010 05:50PM

Pace2008 wrote: »

Under your proposed system, I will receive life imprisonment if I do not condemn the golf course in which I picked my mushrooms to the same fate.

Only if you sell to/supply others.

Pace2008 · 24-11-2010 05:52PM

CrazyRabbit wrote: »

Only if you sell to/supply others.

Do you honestly think someone who knocks out a few pills or shrooms deserves life for their sins?

Under our current system there is no distinction between mushrooms, MDMA and heroin.

24-11-2010 05:57PM

Life imprisonment for class A drug use?

Are you for real?

Seriously?

Something wrong up in the aul' noggin' there?

Ah go on, admit it, you're taking the piss, aren't you?

Irish 'Tough on Crime' and Mammies Association
Ruling your own body and mind since evolution's last great failure (whenever that was)

Pace2008 · 24-11-2010 06:04PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Life imprisonment for class A drug use?

Are you for real?

Seriously?

Something wrong up in the aul' noggin' there?

Ah go on, admit it, you're taking the piss, aren't you?

Irish 'Tough on Crime' and Mammies Association
Ruling your own body and mind since evolution's last great failure (whenever that was)

Man, if you could see the way marijuana cigarettes have ravaged my community you'd be singing a different tune.

jackiebaron · 24-11-2010 06:09PM

fonecrusher1 wrote: »

Yeah but in all fairness dubs put it in their tea. Heroin tea & cocaine cakes.

We sprinkle it on our Sugar Smacks

Fremen · 24-11-2010 06:21PM

CrazyRabbit wrote: »

It's not about tougher sentences. If anything it would greatly reduce the number of people in prisons. It's about giving one hell of an incentive for drug users and suppliers to give up their sources and cooperate fully. The only way to remove these drugs is to cut off the source.

You have to catch them first. We're not really very good at that, you know.

SuperInfinity · 24-11-2010 06:40PM

The people I hate aren't the dealers, aren't the users, aren't the police... the people I really hate are the people who feel they have been "enlightened" (mainly young people) and say that they should be legalized.... ANY of those drugs.

The people who say it should be legalized would be responsible for horrendous problems in the future and an unbelievable amount of pain and human suffering. Those people are a disgrace.

As far as I'm concerned, taking heroin, marajuana or any drugs like that will always be a crime to me. A crime against human kind, never mind what those fools who tell us they're our authority and know what's best say.

Sea Sharp · 24-11-2010 06:45PM

SuperInfinity wrote: »

As far as I'm concerned, taking heroin, marajuana or any drugs like that will always be a crime to me. A crime against human kind, never mind what those fools who tell us they're our authority and know what's best say.

Standard response:

Would you consider going down to the pub and drinking 5 or 6 pints to be a 'crime against human kind'?

CiaranC · 24-11-2010 06:54PM

SuperInfinity wrote: »

The people I hate aren't the dealers, aren't the users, aren't the police... the people I really hate are the people who feel they have been "enlightened" (mainly young people) and say that they should be legalized.... ANY of those drugs.

The people who say it should be legalized would be responsible for horrendous problems in the future and an unbelievable amount of pain and human suffering. Those people are a disgrace.

As far as I'm concerned, taking heroin, marajuana or any drugs like that will always be a crime to me. A crime against human kind, never mind what those fools who tell us they're our authority and know what's best say.

Haha, very good.

24-11-2010 06:55PM

Sea Sharp wrote: »

Standard response:

Would you consider going down to the pub and drinking 5 or 6 pints to be a 'crime against human kind'?

Any illegal drug use lines the pockets of very very dangerous, often murderous folk, can't be compared to having a few legal pints in your local, where in many cases the owner and staff may well be friends of yours who appreciate your custom.

SuperInfinity · 24-11-2010 06:57PM

Sea Sharp wrote: »

Standard response:

Would you consider going down to the pub and drinking 5 or 6 pints to be a 'crime against human kind'?

I don't drink, I dont like the taste or how I feel after it. I would consider it a crime against humankind if you put people in danger because of it, but alcohol is a bit like a food in some respects so taken in moderation I wouldn't say so.

Pace2008 · 24-11-2010 06:59PM

RoverJames wrote: »

Any illegal drug use lines the pockets of very very dangerous, often murderous folk, can't be compared to having a few legal pints in your local, where in many cases the owner and staff may well be friends of yours who appreciate your custom.

You're contributing to the industry that keeps our A&E good and lively every weekend night.

Don't even make me go on about coffee and bananas again.

homer simpson · 24-11-2010 07:01PM

Sea Sharp wrote: »

Standard response:

Would you consider going down to the pub and drinking 5 or 6 pints to be a 'crime against human kind'?

No its not but When you go for a few days without pints because your skint you just man (women) up and get on with it, whereas if you got for a few hours (nevermind a few days) without Heroin You'll more than likely Mug some poor random person or go robbing to get their fix, theres the difference!!!!!!!!!

Mweelrea · 24-11-2010 07:02PM

chin_grin wrote: »

What do you call an epileptic in a bush?

Russell.

What do you call an epileptic in a wheelchair ?

A transformer

Degsy · 24-11-2010 07:14PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Life imprisonment for class A drug use?

Are you for real?

Seriously?

Something wrong up in the aul' noggin' there?

Ah go on, admit it, you're taking the piss, aren't you?

Irish 'Tough on Crime' and Mammies Association
Ruling your own body and mind since evolution's last great failure (whenever that was)

Dont forget the Death Sentence for growing dope.

The method of execution? Lethal injection or Deaadddly Injection as it would soon come to be known.

Capt'n Midnight · 24-11-2010 07:14PM

Augmerson wrote: »

Some states in the US have very harsh sentences for drug related offences and it is still no deterrent.

There's something like over 1 million people in jail in the US at the moment - now obviously not all of those people are in there for "drug crimes" but a huge number would be. Imagine if we imposed the same sentences here, our prison population would explode and even then you'd still be able to get Heroin in prison ffs.

harsh sentences ?

In asia they use the death penalty and guess what ?
it don't work there

Lemsiper · 24-11-2010 08:20PM

CrazyRabbit wrote: »

For Class A drugs;

Automatic life sentences for drug users unless they reveal their supplier and testify against them. If they do this, then the sentence should be reduced to treatment and weekly drug tests afterwards, with a prison sentence for re-using.

Automatic life sentences for suppliers, reduced to 5 years if they reveal their supplier and testify against them (if possible).

Death penalty for manufacturers/growers/importers.

For other illegal drugs, treatment and random testing. Re-using = significant fine. Re-using again = prison sentence.

That'll put a stop to it.

Just so you're aware of the Class A/Schedule I drugs in Ireland. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misuse_of_Drugs_Act_%28Ireland%29#Schedule_1

24-11-2010 08:57PM

SuperInfinity wrote:

the people I really hate are the people who feel they have been "enlightened" (mainly young people) and say that they should be legalized.... ANY of those drugs.

It just so happens that some of us are enlightened. It's hardly my fault that so many are still living in the Christian Dark Ages. :pac:

Science is slowly uncovering more and more about certain illegal drugs, which until recently was very much a game of speculation for many substances.

SuperInfinity wrote:

I would consider it a crime against humankind if you put people in danger because of it, but alcohol is a bit like a food in some respects so taken in moderation I wouldn't say so.

You have just revealed your complete lack of knowledge of pharmacology and pharmacodynamics. Congratulations, because everyone here can now dismiss absolutely everything you say on the basis that you're willing to ignore objective evidence and embrace the Moral Mammy Mentality. Maybe if you write to Santa this year, you'll get what you want.

Problem?

strobe · 24-11-2010 09:07PM

CrazyRabbit wrote: »

It's not about tougher sentences. If anything it would greatly reduce the number of people in prisons. It's about giving one hell of an incentive for drug users and suppliers to give up their sources and cooperate fully. The only way to remove these drugs is to cut off the source.

Listen man, just take a second to think through what you are suggesting and what it could hope to accomplish.

CrazyRabbit wrote: »

For Class A drugs;

Automatic life sentences for drug users unless they reveal their supplier and testify against them. If they do this, then the sentence should be reduced to treatment and weekly drug tests afterwards, with a prison sentence for re-using.

Automatic life sentences for suppliers, reduced to 5 years if they reveal their supplier and testify against them (if possible).

Death penalty for manufacturers/growers/importers.

For other illegal drugs, treatment and random testing. Re-using = significant fine. Re-using again = prison sentence.

That'll put a stop to it.

So Johnny get's arrested walking down the street with an eight ounce of cocaine in his pocket. The Gardai say "here's the deal with the law now. You tell us who you got it off and testify against them and all you need do is go to drug treatment and get tested once a week. Don't do this and you get a life sentence."

So Johnny says, "No problem boss. It was Billy Murphy, he lives at 123 Fake Street, go arrest him and I'll testify when it get's to the court case"

So next thing the cops go raid Billy's house. They find nothing but they have Johnny's word. They interview Billy and he denies everything.

It comes to the court case and you have the word of Johnny vs the word of Billy and the Judge bursts his bollox laughing then tears into the Gardai and the DPP for wasting the courts time. Billy goes home to cook himself some dinner and Johnny signs into drug treatment and weekly drug tests. Johnny times his drug use to give clear tests and get's coked out of his mind as much as he always did.

Now was Billy even his supplier? Or did Billy just ride his bird this one time a couple of years ago? Really doesn't matter in the slightest.

Now you might be thinking. "Ahhh but if it was Billy that was his supplier, now the cops know and they can stick him under surveillance and catch him down the line." Well that is of no use to anyone. The local drug squads are professionals. As are the NDU. They identify the drug dealers in their area for a living. They already know who the main drug dealers in the area are. But our legal system works on the presumption that you are innocent untill proven guilty. It is not enough for them to know that someone is a drug dealer, they have to catch them dealing (or at least in possession of) drugs. Now of course some mid to minor level dealers skirt under the radar but very few of the mid level ones and the minor ones are barely even worth the investment.

So back to Johnny, say he messes up on timing his drug tests or he just get's greedy and lazy and fills himself up with drugs right up until the day of one of his tests. Well tests aren't 100%, there are hundreds of things that can cause false positives. Amoxicillin for cocaine. Ibuprofen, Naproxen, Ketoprofen, Promethazine, Pantoprazole Riboflavin, Vitamin B2, Kidney infection (Kidney disease, diabetes), Liver Disease etc etc etc for Cannabis.

Lawyer: "Reasonable doubt your honour"
Judge: "Hey DPP dickhead, are you fukking serious!?!? Bringing this sh1t in here after I basically threatened to smash your face in with my gavel after that whole ridiculous Billy/Johnny debacle last month!?!?!? I see you in my court room again and I'll de-ball you boi!"

=========================================================

.....and all that is before we even start talking about the cost in money (which in case you haven't noticed we have none of) and Garda manpower and resources, the cost in adding further more backlog to the courts with pointless fantasy attempts at getting prosecutions (but sure all those murder and rape and assault cases can wait 3 or 4 years to be heard, what's the harm?), the cost of running these many thousands of drug tests, and the cost to basic civil liberties in terms of imprisoning a drug addict because of one single slip up in their recovery.....

I could really go on here all day......

It is a horrible, impracticle, counter-productive, pointless, fantasy land idea.

But at least you are trying I guess.

SuperInfinity · 24-11-2010 09:10PM

Deleted User wrote: »

You have just revealed your complete lack of knowledge of pharmacology and pharmacodynamics. Congratulations, because everyone here can now dismiss absolutely everything you say on the basis that you're willing to ignore objective evidence and embrace the Moral Mammy Mentality. Maybe if you write to Santa this year, you'll get what you want.

Problem?

You dont speak for "everyone here" you deluded little man.

fwiw, I consider all pharmacology and pharmacodynamics to be close to pseudocscience, so I have no opinion on that nonsense. I hate all drugs, whether big daddy pharmaceutical man says they're okay or not.

It's you who are so naive and have a Moral Mammy mentality when these guys are only trying to extricate as much money from you as possible. These drugs irreversibly destroy you and your brain whether you like it or not, and they hurt other people as well.

Capt'n Midnight · 24-11-2010 09:17PM

Lemsiper wrote: »

Just so you're aware of the Class A/Schedule I drugs in Ireland. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misuse_of_Drugs_Act_%28Ireland%29#Schedule_1

How many people received the 'mandatory' 10 year sentence ?

strobe · 24-11-2010 09:21PM

SuperInfinity wrote: »

You dont speak for "everyone here" you deluded little man.

fwiw, I consider all pharmacology and pharmacodynamics to be close to pseudocscience, so I have no opinion on that nonsense. I hate all drugs, whether big daddy pharmaceutical man says they're okay or not.

It's you who are so naive and have a Moral Mammy mentality when these guys are only trying to extricate as much money from you as possible. These drugs irreversibly destroy you and your brain whether you like it or not, and they hurt other people as well.

What now?

CrazyRabbit · 25-11-2010 06:10AM

Pace2008 wrote: »

Do you honestly think someone who knocks out a few pills or shrooms deserves life for their sins?

Under our current system there is no distinction between mushrooms, MDMA and heroin.

Deleted User wrote: »

Life imprisonment for class A drug use?

Are you for real?

Seriously?

Something wrong up in the aul' noggin' there?

Ah go on, admit it, you're taking the piss, aren't you?

Irish 'Tough on Crime' and Mammies Association
Ruling your own body and mind since evolution's last great failure (whenever that was)

I'm waiting on your suggestions. It's clear we have to do something radically different.

Lemsiper wrote: »

Just so you're aware of the Class A/Schedule I drugs in Ireland. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misuse_of_Drugs_Act_%28Ireland%29#Schedule_1

I never mentioned the current system for drug classification or its faults.

CrazyRabbit · 25-11-2010 06:20AM

strobe wrote: »

Listen man, just take a second to think through what you are suggesting and what it could hope to accomplish.

So Johnny get's arrested walking down the street with an eight ounce of cocaine in his pocket. The Gardai say "here's the deal with the law now. You tell us who you got it off and testify against them and all you need do is go to drug treatment and get tested once a week. Don't do this and you get a life sentence."

So Johnny says, "No problem boss. It was Billy Murphy, he lives at 123 Fake Street, go arrest him and I'll testify when it get's to the court case"

So next thing the cops go raid Billy's house. They find nothing but they have Johnny's word. They interview Billy and he denies everything.

It comes to the court case and you have the word of Johnny vs the word of Billy and the Judge bursts his bollox laughing then tears into the Gardai and the DPP for wasting the courts time. Billy goes home to cook himself some dinner and Johnny signs into drug treatment and weekly drug tests. Johnny times his drug use to give clear tests and get's coked out of his mind as much as he always did.

Now was Billy even his supplier? Or did Billy just ride his bird this one time a couple of years ago? Really doesn't matter in the slightest.

Now you might be thinking. "Ahhh but if it was Billy that was his supplier, now the cops know and they can stick him under surveillance and catch him down the line." Well that is of no use to anyone. The local drug squads are professionals. As are the NDU. They identify the drug dealers in their area for a living. They already know who the main drug dealers in the area are. But our legal system works on the presumption that you are innocent untill proven guilty. It is not enough for them to know that someone is a drug dealer, they have to catch them dealing (or at least in possession of) drugs. Now of course some mid to minor level dealers skirt under the radar but very few of the mid level ones and the minor ones are barely even worth the investment.

So back to Johnny, say he messes up on timing his drug tests or he just get's greedy and lazy and fills himself up with drugs right up until the day of one of his tests. Well tests aren't 100%, there are hundreds of things that can cause false positives. Amoxicillin for cocaine. Ibuprofen, Naproxen, Ketoprofen, Promethazine, Pantoprazole Riboflavin, Vitamin B2, Kidney infection (Kidney disease, diabetes), Liver Disease etc etc etc for Cannabis.

Lawyer: "Reasonable doubt your honour"
Judge: "Hey DPP dickhead, are you fukking serious!?!? Bringing this sh1t in here after I basically threatened to smash your face in with my gavel after that whole ridiculous Billy/Johnny debacle last month!?!?!? I see you in my court room again and I'll de-ball you boi!"

=========================================================

.....and all that is before we even start talking about the cost in money (which in case you haven't noticed we have none of) and Garda manpower and resources, the cost in adding further more backlog to the courts with pointless fantasy attempts at getting prosecutions (but sure all those murder and rape and assault cases can wait 3 or 4 years to be heard, what's the harm?), the cost of running these many thousands of drug tests, and the cost to basic civil liberties in terms of imprisoning a drug addict because of one single slip up in their recovery.....

I could really go on here all day......

It is a horrible, impracticle, counter-productive, pointless, fantasy land idea.

But at least you are trying I guess.

Wow...I feel I should thank you just for actually writing all that.

Of course more is needed that just a junkies testimony. It would need to be backed up with hard evidence. Junkie claims Billy is the supplier. Billy is put under surveillance as Johnny is sent to buy more drugs from him. Or a search warrant is obtained for his house....etc.

The idea here is to turn the users on their suppliers. Every supplier then knows that their 'customers' will turn on them in a heartbeat and testify against them.

My original post was quite brief. I'd no intention of covering every aspect of a law change. It was just a quick summary of a general approach that I feel should be taken. The current system of giving junkies a slap on the wrist, putting them into revolving-door prisons and letting suppliers/importers practically act with impunity just isn't working. It never has...anywhere.

we love heroin

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