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"Would an EU bailout be all that bad?" - the DEFINITIVE thread

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Comments

  • #32
    Amhran Nua
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,124 ✭✭✭Amhran Nua


    keithclancy wrote: »
    Yes and there isn't enough to meet Government spending, can't you see that other European countries would see this as unfair ?
    If expenditure was at 2004 levels, we'd be breaking even right now, or close to, and we're cutting expenditure to that level. I don't recall the CT rate being any higher then. Also, I don't really care what they think is unfair, let them cut their own corporate tax rate. I'm not getting the confusion here - if the CT rate is raised, nobody will be seeing any of their money back this side of the twenty second century.
    galway2007 wrote: »
    He said as it stands the Irish are robbing the tax base in the uk and other countries by allowing companies to set up there head quarters here and we could not expect countries to bail us out while we are robbing there tax base.
    I'd expect them to say no less. ;)
    galway2007 wrote: »
    You have to be honest what he said is true and we can kiss our 12.5 rate goodbye.
    No, its not true, competition is not theft. If the UK or any other country wants to compete with Ireland they can just drop their own corporate tax rate, and the UK is living in cloud cuckoo land if they think they can dictate Irish tax law.


  • #33
    keithclancy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,157 ✭✭✭keithclancy


    Amhran Nua wrote: »
    If expenditure was at 2004 levels, we'd be breaking even right now, or close to, and we're cutting expenditure to that level. I don't recall the CT rate being any higher then. Also, I don't really care what they think is unfair, let them cut their own corporate tax rate. I'm not getting the confusion here - if the CT rate is raised, nobody will be seeing any of their money back this side of the twenty second century.

    Expenditure is not at 2004 levels though is it ?
    Where is the money supposed to come from ? Do you expect other members of the EU to pay for Irelands problems that are self generated?
    I'd expect them to say no less. ;)

    No, its not true, competition is not theft. If the UK or any other country wants to compete with Ireland they can just drop their own corporate tax rate, and the UK is living in cloud cuckoo land if they think they can dictate Irish tax law.

    As one of the larger contributors to the Union they have a say as opposed to Ireland which is just a mountain of debt at the moment.

    Unfortunately I do not think Ireland will have much of a choice.


  • #34
    jimmycrackcorm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,353 ✭✭✭✭jimmycrackcorm


    keithclancy wrote: »
    As one of the larger contributors to the Union they have a say as opposed to Ireland which is just a mountain of debt at the moment.

    Unfortunately I do not think Ireland will have much of a choice.


    images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSKS_fPWJTl_5VF-DIgl7HtQmkAjMz1eyZ58rOrDO-7LFfVE3Ei


    Veto says no.


  • #35
    Amhran Nua
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,124 ✭✭✭Amhran Nua


    keithclancy wrote: »
    Expenditure is not at 2004 levels though is it ?
    Er, how about the €15 billion in cuts coming down the pipe?
    keithclancy wrote: »
    Where is the money supposed to come from ? Do you expect other members of the EU to pay for Irelands problems that are self generated?
    Apparently we don't need other members of the EU to pay for Irelands problems at the moment. I'd support this by the way the guards, nurses, teachers and so on aren't getting IOUs in lieu of paycheques.
    keithclancy wrote: »
    As one of the larger contributors to the Union they have a say as opposed to Ireland which is just a mountain of debt at the moment.
    On the contrary, having been unable to achieve the fiscal goals required to join the euro, I'd say the UK is considerably less committed to the EU than Ireland.
    keithclancy wrote: »
    Unfortunately I do not think Ireland will have much of a choice.
    Thats an opinion alright.


  • #36
    keithclancy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,157 ✭✭✭keithclancy


    Apparently we don't need other members of the EU to pay for Irelands problems at the moment. I'd support this by the way the guards, nurses, teachers and so on aren't getting IOUs in lieu of paycheques.

    Most of that money has been borrowed.

    If you look at the figures:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:EU_net_budget_2007-2013_per_capita.png

    Taken from:
    http://www.openeurope.org.uk/research/budget07.pdf

    The United Kingdom is a net contributor
    Ireland is a net recipient.


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  • #37
    keithclancy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,157 ✭✭✭keithclancy


    jimmycrackcorm wrote: »
    images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSKS_fPWJTl_5VF-DIgl7HtQmkAjMz1eyZ58rOrDO-7LFfVE3Ei


    Veto says no.


    Not talking about a veto, politically they have a say.
    Look what happened when Angela Merkel spoke about the bonds last week.


  • #38
    Amhran Nua
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,124 ✭✭✭Amhran Nua


    keithclancy wrote: »
    The United Kingdom is a net contributor
    Ireland is a net recipient.
    One thing I do note is that Ireland is on the verge of becoming a net contributor. How long do you think it will take for that to happen if the corporation tax rate is adjusted upwards? Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face.

    At the end of the day, the books will have to be balanced, but its apparent that undercutting and driving out FDI from Ireland will not only make that much more difficult, but will in fact increase the overall burden on the EU. There's really no argument here. Once the books are balanced, and they will be, borrowing requirements drop drastically.


  • #39
    keithclancy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,157 ✭✭✭keithclancy


    Amhran Nua wrote: »
    One thing I do note is that Ireland is on the verge of becoming a net contributor. How long do you think it will take for that to happen if the corporation tax rate is adjusted upwards? Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face.

    At the end of the day, the books will have to be balanced, but its apparent that undercutting and driving out FDI from Ireland will not only make that much more difficult, but will in fact increase the overall burden on the EU. There's really no argument here. Once the books are balanced, and they will be, borrowing requirements drop drastically.

    I'll put it this way, If the Netherlands has a Corporation tax rate of 25.5% and Ireland raised its rate to 20%, why would they up sticks and move to the Netherlands, or anywhere else for that matter ?

    Ireland needs to invest in its infrastructure and have long term incentives for companies to stay in the country, at the moment Ireland is being used as a Tax Bridge into the Union. In the IT Industry for example, most of the work is done abroad and then sold through Ireland to avoid high corporation tax.

    Microsoft - Development happens in Israel, sold via Ireland into the EU

    Apple - Devlopment Happens in the US, Products are Maufactured in Taiwan.

    Google - Majority of work is done in Switzerland, profits funneled through Ireland

    Dell - Money pushed through Ireland, Manufacturing moved to Lodz, Poland.

    My point is they do not need the Jobs in Ireland, they just need to move the money through Ireland to have a low Corporate tax rate for sales in the EU.

    Whats attractive to companies, depending on their industry is Good Transport and Infrastructure, a skilled workforce and a good quality of life for employees and employers, with an honest government running the show.

    Tax Breaks (and to a lesser extent Grants) add a SHORT term benefit, in the long term they only cripple the country as there is no money to invest in the infrastructure that keeps business there.

    I mean, by your argument, Germany should be a desolate wasteland with everyone unemployed, but its not.

    Long term development is the Key, Ireland is pretty young in economic terms and as a result grew too fast with borrowed money.


  • #40
    kippy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,350 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    RichardAnd wrote: »
    Exactly, it's the politics of Europe that will really hurt, more so than the necessary economic adjustments. We have to remember, during the boom we bragged to europe about out economic miracle so if now, we have to go to them for help you can be sure that they will take the opportunity to knock us down a few pegs.

    You see, europe isn't a family, if it were the french and germans would punish us in a way that a parent might punish a child. We'll be upset for a bit but after a while, we'll learn from it and be better off. No, the EU is a wild collection of radically different nations/people who have spend most of the last 1000 years at war for various reasons. The only change is that we now do our fighting over a table rather than a battle field but the end result is the same; we're all out for get what's best for ourselves.

    This may seem cynical but I do believe that the EU will not last for long as it currently stands. No state in Europe really gives a crap about anyone else so in short, Ireland is the only person watching Ireland's back. Sadly we're busy fighting with each other.

    You've obviously forgotten the fact that we have never been net contributors to the EU in our time as members and we wont be either for the foreseeable.
    If they didnt give a crap about anyone I doubt that would be the case to be honest.


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