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Winter 2010-2011 outlook

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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,033 ✭✭✭redsteveireland


    Thanks for that M.T
    bookies are giving odds of 5/1 for a white Christmas! sounds like easy money to me:D


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,674 ✭✭✭Rougies


    I'm more annoyed at the thought of bad weather fouling up my Barcelona Marathon training tbh, plus I hate the fact that this country just cannot handle bad weather at all.

    Awwwww, it can be a tough life sometimes :rolleyes:

    I hope you take some solace in the fact that we'll enjoy the "bad" weather here in the weather forum.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,523 ✭✭✭jambofc


    fantastic winter forecast M.T really has made my day,bring it on as missed most of the snow last winter im sooooooo hungry for a whiteout at some stage :D


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,134 ✭✭✭✭maquiladora


    Question for MT. In your forecast you mention a possible extreme or near extreme winter event. What historical examples that you know of would compare with what you'd classify as extreme? I've heard the winter of 1916/17 being brought up on other forums, is that realistic?


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,352 ✭✭✭✭M.T. Cranium


    Well, do you have any historical records for Ireland for that winter, because I have the CET values for the UK and that winter was one of the colder ones in the long warm spell of the early 20th century (going by memory here, there was no winter month below 0.0 in the CET from about 1895 to 1940, and the winters of 1917 and 1929 were two of the colder ones in that stretch with many mild winters.) Given where we're at in long-term recovery from a very mild stretch of winters that might be the sort of benchmark.

    However, we're not going to be too surprised if this winter manages to produce some even more noteworthy cold than last winter or 1917 for that matter, of course much depends on how the cold overlaps calendar months because last winter, I believe, the CET came pretty close to a 30-day freezing period mid-December to mid-January but the January CET value was 1.4 C, and our new IMT index read 1.9 was it? Something like that.

    I think for the sort of pattern we're predicting, the monthly temperatures that we've mentioned in both Ireland and the UK are fairly conservative staying at or above 2.0 C, which is quite cold but not record cold. You just really don't want to go to the absolute extreme in a forecast for a climate like this, where snow cover is needed to force the values down much below 3.0 from what I've seen in recent years.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,134 ✭✭✭✭maquiladora


    Well, do you have any historical records for Ireland for that winter

    I found this on an old boards thread, you might find it helpful :

    http://i51.tinypic.com/5vyjcy.png


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,512 ✭✭✭Speak Now


    I found this on an old boards thread, you might find it helpful :

    http://i51.tinypic.com/5vyjcy.png

    I notice this is page 70, is it from a old book?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,667 ✭✭✭WolfeIRE


    another outlook confirming a cold winter
    http://globalcoolingnewiceageuk.blogspot.com/

    "I am therefore still currently forecasting that the UK and Northern Europe will experience at the very least a winter similar to the last, or as I expect much worse with heavy snowfall
    ..."

    Don't know who the poster is or whether he has had success in the past


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,134 ✭✭✭✭maquiladora


    I notice this is page 70, is it from a old book?

    Looks like a scan from a book alright. Someone posted it a while back in an old thread about past winters.


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 15,695 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tabnabs


    The latest temperature outlook for the period December to February according to the Norwegian Meteorological Institute

    desember_februar3.jpg


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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,512 ✭✭✭Speak Now


    Dyflin wrote: »
    The latest temperature outlook for the period December to February according to the Norwegian Meteorological Institute

    How does that read? Is it temps v average i.e 0.5 above average for ireland :confused:


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,656 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    Pangea wrote: »
    rtqk2g.jpg

    ah yes the famous picture of your reaction upon opening the door of your house last winter. :pac:
    for those of you wondering, this is what he saw:

    index.php?app=core&module=attach&section=attach&attach_rel_module=post&attach_id=105327


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,186 ✭✭✭Kippure


    WolfeIRE wrote: »
    another outlook confirming a cold winter
    http://globalcoolingnewiceageuk.blogspot.com/

    "I am therefore still currently forecasting that the UK and Northern Europe will experience at the very least a winter similar to the last, or as I expect much worse with heavy snowfall
    ..."

    Don't know who the poster is or whether he has had success in the past

    His or her name is weather geek i think. They done a good forecast last year to.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,248 ✭✭✭kstand


    This is my first post on this site. Been reading the weather section here for a while and find it really informative, excellent analysis and comment.
    Regarding this thread, I read Weather Geeks blogs and find what he has to say very interesting, especially regarding the reduction in the Gulf Stream. I saw a documentary a few years ago where someone put across a hypothesis that if enough fresh water got into the North Atlantic, it could shut down the Gulf Stream entirley which could in turn lead to an ice age in northern Europe.
    Going to keep a close eye on what this guy has to say. I live in London with my fiance and child and we're due to go back to Ireland the week before Christmas. Spending afew days in Monaghan first then down to Clare on the 26th until New Year. Last year we stayed in London as we had a baby but heard that roads were impassable etc at home throughout Christmas and the New Year. Might scupper the plans we have but will have to wait and see.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,352 ✭✭✭✭M.T. Cranium


    Thanks very much for the links to historical snowfalls. I had a look at the weather maps on the wetterzentrale archives. Here's the map for the January 1917 snowstorm:

    http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/archive/slp/1917/Rslp19170125.gif

    You can see it's a classic frontal boundary event with the 10-12 C Atlantic air not that far away, probably similar to the 1 Jan 1979 snowstorm.

    The storm mentioned for 1 April 1917 (you can check it out) looks more like a northerly flow that developed a strong polar low moving southwest from Norway to the Irish Sea. That must have given a long-fetch gale force N-NE wind bringing heavy snow to many parts, then augmented by synoptic scale snowfall as the low deepened.

    The windstorm in Feb 1903 appeared to be similar to the Christmas 1997 event in that it was a rapidly developing wave heading northeast across Ireland.

    I was already aware of the very low pressure in Dec 1886 that you can find (8th) close to Belfast with a freakish number of isobars.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,530 ✭✭✭TheInquisitor


    Joe B on the next 10 days

    http://www.accuweather.com/video/677466324001/hey-europe-the-arctic-hound-is-getting-ready-to-howl.asp?channel=vbbastaj

    On uk/Ire page Update today
    HELLO, EUROPE... NO CHANGE IN WINTER IDEAS ON THE THREAT OF BRUTAL COLD ALPS INTO SOUTHERN RUSSIA.

    By the way, you can follow me on Twitter (I am @BigJoeBastardi). I occasionally tweet there on Europe when I don't have time for monster posts. In fact, I tweeted today.

    I see nothing to back away on the idea that the core of the worst of the winter is in southern Europe into southern Russia this year. Most of the "continent" is cold and it's Ireland, northern and central Great Britain and Scandinavia that has the shot at warmer than normal. It will be a tussle in Brussels, but once south to Vienna and Berne, it's the cold that will turn people into non-believers (if they have not had enough already) that may be warm, warm, warm is not the way to go. I also think the winter is cold from Italy to Turkey. The threat of cold is no bull in Istanbul.

    Having my way with words here.

    In fact, I am so impressed that I think my relatives all the way to Bari, Italy, are going to see it snow this year.

    For my amigos in Madrid... look out, a cold Spanish winter is on the way. In Greece and Cyprus, colder than normal. In fact, from about the 50th latitude south, this looks nasty, but centered between 40 and 45.

    If you like winter cold... you'll love what's coming.

    Ciao for now.


  • Registered Users Posts: 836 ✭✭✭derekon



    I am still trying to reconcile Joe B's theory that the coming winter will be warmer than normal for Ireland with MTs winter forecast from yesterday which lets be honest, was excellent for all snow lovers in Ireland that post on these boards. :D

    Why is Joe seeing one thing and MT seeing another? Different models being used ?


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,352 ✭✭✭✭M.T. Cranium


    I think the difference in outlook is based on somewhat different assessments of how the Atlantic circulation will respond to roughly the same forecast concept for North America (Joe B & myself, that is).

    He apparently thinks that the warm anomaly to be expected over the southeast U.S. will fire a constant barrage of storms towards Iceland and keep the European high over the southern half of the continent. I think he's saying that the high may be far enough north to give a buffer to the storm track so that you might expect a mild or near normal temperature regime with dry conditions much of the time. Further south they get into an easterly flow of anomalous cold from Siberia through the Ukraine into the Med.

    We just don't see this evolution being plausible (we being myself and Fred at net-weather) and we see early signs of a very active arctic outflow into Scandinavia reinforcing blocking near Iceland, a key component of most severe winters in Ireland and the UK historically.

    Of course nature is more complex than just one stagnant set-up pattern and the reality is that the forecast has to anticipate a range of circulation types, it's rather unusual to get a winter like 1962-63 when blocking remains in place almost all the time, or a zonal non-stop express like 2006-07.

    We're saying to expect northerly and easterly flow types to occupy more of the menu than normal. For a "normal" distribution of various types, a winter like 2007-08 might serve as an illustration, a bit of everything that averages out not too far from normal. These tend to be forgettable winters but can have their own major events. I'm not sure what the winter of 1838-39 was like overall but obviously that one storm event dominated the memories of that winter for many years afterwards, whatever happened in February 1839 was soon forgotten.

    Anyway, I think there probably is a standard "La Nina climatology" at play in some forecasts and it really doesn't affect my outlook that much because I sense there is such a range of possible outcomes in the La Nina family that it's like trying to predict one brother's future from another brother's career, if you see what I'm getting at.


  • Registered Users Posts: 836 ✭✭✭derekon


    I think the difference in outlook is based on somewhat different assessments of how the Atlantic circulation will respond to roughly the same forecast concept for North America (Joe B & myself, that is).

    He apparently thinks that the warm anomaly to be expected over the southeast U.S. will fire a constant barrage of storms towards Iceland and keep the European high over the southern half of the continent. I think he's saying that the high may be far enough north to give a buffer to the storm track so that you might expect a mild or near normal temperature regime with dry conditions much of the time. Further south they get into an easterly flow of anomalous cold from Siberia through the Ukraine into the Med.

    We just don't see this evolution being plausible (we being myself and Fred at net-weather) and we see early signs of a very active arctic outflow into Scandinavia reinforcing blocking near Iceland, a key component of most severe winters in Ireland and the UK historically.

    Of course nature is more complex than just one stagnant set-up pattern and the reality is that the forecast has to anticipate a range of circulation types, it's rather unusual to get a winter like 1962-63 when blocking remains in place almost all the time, or a zonal non-stop express like 2006-07.

    We're saying to expect northerly and easterly flow types to occupy more of the menu than normal. For a "normal" distribution of various types, a winter like 2007-08 might serve as an illustration, a bit of everything that averages out not too far from normal. These tend to be forgettable winters but can have their own major events. I'm not sure what the winter of 1838-39 was like overall but obviously that one storm event dominated the memories of that winter for many years afterwards, whatever happened in February 1839 was soon forgotten.

    Anyway, I think there probably is a standard "La Nina climatology" at play in some forecasts and it really doesn't affect my outlook that much because I sense there is such a range of possible outcomes in the La Nina family that it's like trying to predict one brother's future from another brother's career, if you see what I'm getting at.

    Thanks for the clarification MT. Given your forecasts are largely accurate, I am quite excited about the upcoming winter here in Ireland.

    That said I do accept your assertion that it won't mean ice & snow every day on the Emerald Isle :D

    However, both your post, the one from "Blast from the Past" and other experts on weather forums gives me some confidence that Ireland is likely to receive above average snowfall this winter. Bring it on ! :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 35 cammo 30


    maybe im wrong and i hope i am....i was on joe bastardi s blog today and was only updated today. he is saying ireland and england are to have warm weather for winter......i do hope he is wrong..

    if this winter is like last winter or worse (clod and lots of snow) i will be a happy chappy...im sick of everyone else getting all the snow...snow gods drop loads a snow over drogheda this winter. plzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz


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  • Registered Users Posts: 836 ✭✭✭derekon


    cammo 30 wrote: »
    maybe im wrong and i hope i am....i was on joe bastardi s blog today and was only updated today. he is saying ireland and england are to have warm weather for winter......i do hope he is wrong..

    if this winter is like last winter or worse (clod and lots of snow) i will be a happy chappy...im sick of everyone else getting all the snow...snow gods drop loads a snow over drogheda this winter. plzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

    Hi Cammo,

    I made the exact same piont about joe b's blog today. However please see reply from MT Cranium just before your post. MT is more confident than Joe of a colder winter for Ireland :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,667 ✭✭✭WolfeIRE


    I am going with MTC on this one in terms of above average snowfall. As MT said there will be considerably milder interludes which will have an effect on the average winter temp, hence Joe's assertion of a warmer than average winter.

    going back to something i said in middle of october (link below and text pasted below). I am even more convinced that this will be the case. Models are not budging on such a set up.
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=68629864&postcount=571

    "while normal temps (for the time of year) will kick in from monday until the end of the first week of november (according to model outputs) it must be said that the signs are good for the coming winter.

    keep an eye on the following

    http://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/gefs...de=1&runpara=0

    http://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/ecmw...pe=0&archive=0


    track how the warmer upper atmosphere temps are skirting around ireland. this trend has been ongoing since the middle of september, with the exception of brief milder interlude 10 days ago. The prospect of normal or slightly below winter temps, broken up by brief milder spells, bodes well for the coming winter as such a scenario would deliver more snowfall i.e. entrenched cold meeting atlantic fronts.


    I know Su said that the seas around greenland and scandanavia are warmer than they were last year, thus reducing the severity of any northerly or northeasterlies on ireland. However, should the current set up continue my guess is that we will see the heaviest snow this winter affect the western half of the island as atlantic fronts come up against colder air entrenched over ireland (similar to march 2010).


    the nao has shifted the influence of the jet stream further south as far as my woefully untrained eye can see and this bodes well.


    This is my observation for what it is worth. I guess it's my prediction for the coming winter
    "


    Another post a few days later - http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=68706680&postcount=637 -

    "As MT said in his daily forecast cold air over greenland will try unsuccessfully to push down over ireland in between soem fast moving lows pushing their way over ireland from the west and south west. This battle, though being controlled at the moment by the atlantic, presents us with the prospect of some very wintry weather should it continue into late november and december.

    The long range models show the cold air from greenland making more inroads as we enter mid November. Between now and then the Atlantic looks like staying in control of our weather.


    The cold pool of air's difficulty in reaching us may be assisted by the warmer than normal seas around greenland, scanadanvia and the artic in general, - as Su pointed out last week"

    Basically, there will be some heavy dumpings of snow if the models continue to corroborate such a setup.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,352 ✭✭✭✭M.T. Cranium


    As we're seeing today, I think any milder interludes this winter could easily become very stormy. I've just posted this on our net-weather thread so will cross-post it here, it's from my research on event timing and would point to the sort of timetable for energetic low pressure events near Ireland over the winter. Ireland is close to one of nine timing lines in our research model, and so these peak energy situations normally translate to stronger low pressure being nearby, the further north they get, the further west they will be at event time because the timing lines tend to run NW-SE rather than N-S.

    This is the information just added to the Net-weather thread ...

    Just wanted to add some timing for energy peaks in the research model -- these are dates we'll be watching for the strongest storm development, starting with today:

    JC+SO ... 16 NOV, 13 DEC, 9 JAN, 6 FEB

    Full moon 21 NOV, 20-21 DEC, 18-19 JAN, 17 FEB
    N Max 25 NOV, 20-21 DEC, 16 JAN, 12-13 FEB

    weaker "R" events about four days later than N Max

    SC+JO ... 1-2 DEC, 29 DEC, 26-27 JAN, 23 FEB

    new moon 5 DEC, 3 JAN, 2 FEB, 3 MAR
    S Max ... 7 DEC, 2 JAN, 30 JAN, 26-27 FEB

    another cycle of weaker "R" events four days later than S Max

    Just note how this works in general, the main pulse of events at mid-winter is every 7-8 days with a weaker event thrown into the cycle in the longer gaps. The related full/N and new/S sets of events get further separated each month until by spring these are up to seven days apart. So the complex timing of the system has a monthly rhythm that tends to repeat but with one set of events separating out from the rest.

    What makes this winter's timetable very interesting is that the SC/JO and JC/SO sets are well aligned and superimposed and also have a third energy peak that would form an independent moderate energy set on its own, so as seen with today's example, these disturbances may be very strong throughout the winter season. As the full/N and new/S events are usually the strongest of the set, this is more or less doubling up the chances for strong storms to develop all winter. I like the chances therefore for stormy tendencies to be increased over background, and so the question becomes, what kind of storms? For that we went to the background flow or circulation forecasts from another part (independent to some extent) of the model. As this was pointing more to cold than mild (with mild most likely later January) we think a lot (not all) of these storm events will be tracking south either through or south of the UK.

    Willing to speculate that this will all combine to create a very energetic winter circulation over Europe and if cold plays a dominant role, then it would be a really unlucky outcome for there NOT to be significant snowfall with all of that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,187 ✭✭✭✭IvySlayer


    Time to confirm what I've been hinting at here and in the daily forecast thread.

    My long-range seasonal outlook calls for colder than normal temperatures for most of the winter months, and higher than normal snowall amounts.

    Expect periods of very cold weather to develop late November and through much of December as blocking high pressure becomes well established over the Baltic regions. While the Atlantic will occasionally push back and bring milder, wet conditions, the frequency of east winds and cold combined with a storm track close to the south coast of Ireland and into the southern half of the U.K. should make for frequent snowfalls in many parts of Ireland and the U.K. Predicting temperatures to average 1.5 to 2.0 C below normal in December and some stretches possibly sub-freezing, with snowfall likely before Christmas making for a white Christmas for many.

    The January outlook calls for this cold to deepen for part of the month before a brief reversal indicated by some of the research index values. Therefore the month may feature some major winter storms mid-month as this pattern reversal begins. Despite the milder end, the month is likely to continue to average below normal by about the same amount as December, 1-2 C and possibly more.

    February was less conclusive from the research index values but unless the January reversal is highly energetic, could see the blocking redeveloping and leading to a colder than normal February as well.

    Given the strength of cold in the outlook and the dependence of mean winter temperatures on snow cover near the lower end of the spectrum, one cannot rule out a sort of near-extreme or even extreme outcome, since mean monthly temperatures below 2.0 tend to promote continuous snow cover and therefore a fairly easy slide down to sub-freezing values from the same air masses as are present for 2-3 C.

    In other words, I'm predicting a cold winter with lots of snow, that could become an epic winter. Stay tuned.

    One other detail to note, the storm frequency from my research should be on a fairly well-modulated 3.5-day cycle with stronger events every seven days or so (this is not exact so it won't work out to the same day every week). The stronger events are likely to produce their share of slow-moving but deep "Channel" or French lows promoting a strong east wind and outbreaks of snow. One of the better scenarios I foresee for snowfall comes with the December full moon and "northern max" event of 21 December. This is bound to produce an intense storm over western Europe and I am giving something like 2-1 odds for this to be a cold weather storm event with at least some snow or sleet in the mix for Ireland, whereas if the pattern happens to be stuck on mild then, look for a very mild and windy sort of event followed by much colder weather.

    In general, through the mid-winter period, the stormy episodes will fall at full and new moons, and approximately mid-way between them with a second set of high-energy peaks. This pattern will continue into late winter but with the secondary energy peaks decoupling from the primary (full/new) this gives a more frequent distribution of storms that, if coupled with a cold pattern in February, could lead to a steady parade of disturbances around the southern flanks of blocking high pressure to the north and northeast.

    Anyone interested in a more detailed forecast could find one later today on Net-weather posted by my research associate and friend, Blast from the Past as he is known to the weather forum world. That will be UK-centric but after all, the winter patterns are bound to be quite similar, and the general theme appears to be cold winning out over mild again this winter.

    Looks like this pattern could be setting up gradually later this month, and I would not be surprised if there is some snow even in late November.

    I fcuking love you.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,565 ✭✭✭Pangea


    ah yes the famous picture of your reaction upon opening the door of your house last winter. :pac:
    for those of you wondering, this is what he saw:
    Indeed yes :D


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,565 ✭✭✭Pangea


    Just watched The Snowman, now thats what I call dedication. :pac:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 87 ✭✭Iorras55


    Based on nothing more than a paraniod hunch, I think this coming winter will be dry, mild and dull with frequent ridging lodging to our south.

    Deep Easterly where? Hardly deep easterly Ireland! Got any more recent paranoid hunches after the last couple of weeks of gales and plastering rain?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,693 ✭✭✭Redsunset


    Hi M.T, im just wondering what percentage of confidence you have in this background flow being cold. As you say we could be in for some stormy episodes this winter,however if that cold does not materialise and storm track differs then its the atlantic muck. Also im a bit confused when you say bout sc+jo and jc+so matching up well.there's roughly 2 weeks between them or is that what your pointing out. Sorry im not picking here just curious


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,565 ✭✭✭Pangea


    UK Outlook for Monday 22 Nov 2010 to Wednesday 1 Dec 2010:

    A generally unsettled and chilly start with clear or sunny spells, but also with showers, particularly in the east, where some longer spells of rain are also possible. Showers wintry over hills. It will soon turn colder into next week with showers turning increasingly wintry to lower levels with a risk of some significant accumulations of snow in northern and eastern parts. Temperatures below average for the time of year with an increasing risk of overnight frost and icy surfaces, especially where skies clear. Feeling cold in the often fresh and mainly northeasterly wind. The cold theme then continues through to the beginning of December, with northern and eastern parts most at risk from wintry weather.

    Updated: 1212 on Wed 17 Nov 2010


    UK Outlook for Thursday 2 Dec 2010 to Thursday 16 Dec 2010:

    It is expected to remain cold across much of the UK, with precipitation amounts around average, or slightly below, throughout the period. Northeasterly winds could bring wintry showers to northern and eastern areas at times. Amounts of sunshine should be above average away from northern and eastern coasts where it is likely to be cloudier. Temperatures are likely to be below average across the country, with frosty nights and the possibility of some wintry precipitation at times for most areas.

    http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/weather/uk/uk_forecast_weather.html


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 270 ✭✭Elmo5


    accuweather forecasting snow for Nov 28th and 29th.... in Celbridge.

    I know their longterm forecasts aren't the most dependable but still it made me smile :D
    http://www.accuweather.com/ukie/forecast3.asp?partner=accuweather&traveler=0&postalcode=celbridge&metric=1


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