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Catholic grip on education receives rap on knuckles

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  • #2
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,587 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    Already posted here but maybe warrants it's own thread.


  • #3
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,587 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    antiskeptic wrote: »
    One for the a(nti-)theist camp.
    Or just anyone who supports equality, maybe?


  • #4
    Galvasean
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    It's about darn time. For too long they have used this 'ethos' loophole to discriminate in a way no other asociation could get away with.


  • #5
    totoal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 162 ✭✭totoal


    Was she qualified to do the job?
    Does teaching Roman Catholic religious education not make up 10% of the job of a primary teacher in a Roman Catholic school?


  • #6
    keppler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 389 ✭✭keppler


    I wonder how much more of the tax payers money did the school board waste in its arrogance, with legal fees etc


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  • #7
    keppler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 389 ✭✭keppler


    totoal wrote: »
    Was she qualified to do the job?
    Does teaching Roman Catholic religious education not make up 10% of the job of a primary teacher in a Roman Catholic school?

    Well obviously the INTO thought that she was qualified otherwise they wouldnt have taken the case
    I wonder if she was qualified to teach the 9 times tables or long division,subtraction, fractions, barry and ann..............and on and on


  • #8
    antiskeptic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,555 ✭✭✭antiskeptic


    Dades wrote: »
    Or just anyone who supports equality, maybe?

    The atheist camp are more likely than most to focus on the state-funding part of the conundrum to justify the call for equality. Neutrals would probably see the difficulties that arise due to the half/half nature of things. There is the right of Catholicism (whose schools these are) to uphold a Catholic ethos in the way it sees fit .. to be considered too.

    It'd be interesting to see what would happen if Roman Catholicism kicked out state funding and funded their own schools.


  • #9
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    antiskeptic wrote: »
    There is the right of Catholicism (whose schools these are) to uphold a Catholic ethos in the way it sees fit .. to be considered too.

    No, there's not - not if the public is expected to pay for it.
    antiskeptic wrote:
    It'd be interesting to see what would happen if Roman Catholicism kicked out state funding and funded their own schools.

    Catholic education would be severely crippled in Ireland. Where are they going to get all that money from? They depend on sponging off taxpayer money to teach kids how to not think. Mass attendance is at an all-time low and I'd be shocked if the Vatican felt like giving any money away.

    I bet some prick of a bishop would say to his sheeple 'it's your duty to fund our schools now as well as our legal defence costs'. :pac::pac::pac::pac::pac:


  • #10
    Improbable
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,576 ✭✭✭Improbable


    totoal wrote: »
    Was she qualified to do the job?
    Does teaching Roman Catholic religious education not make up 10% of the job of a primary teacher in a Roman Catholic school?

    Given that they would have had to check her credentials before offering her the position, that would be a yes. They even told her that it wouldn't be a problem, showing that they knew about it.

    The issue that I have more of a problem with is that religious organisations have any influence at all on public education, let alone the amount of influence they do have.


  • #11
    antiskeptic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,555 ✭✭✭antiskeptic


    antiskeptic wrote:
    The atheist camp are more likely than most to focus on the state-funding part of the conundrum to justify the call for equality.
    Deleted User wrote: »
    No, there's not - not if the public is expected to pay for it.

    That didn't take long :)

    What about the fact that the Catholic church are also paying for it. The schools are theirs after all?


    Catholic education would be severely crippled in Ireland. Where are they going to get all that money from? They depend on sponging off taxpayer money to teach kids how to not think. Mass attendance is at an all-time low and I'd be shocked if the Vatican felt like giving any money away.


    The question wasn't so much concerned with the hows as with the what if's


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  • #12
    gbee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,388 ✭✭✭gbee


    My view would be like this: If I send my child to a Catholic School, I'd expect the Catholic ethos.

    However, as I don't believe in religion, it should not make a difference who taught my child, as long as they did not try to impose THEIR religion on my child.

    There are difficulties as parents may not have a choice in where their child goes, despite their own religion or lack thereof.


  • #13
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    antiskeptic wrote: »
    That didn't take long :)

    What about the fact that the Catholic church are also paying for it. The schools are theirs after all?

    Sure, just remove all public funding. Eventually, the church will realise it cannot sustain so many schools so they'll either give the schools to the public (as it should be) or make them fee-paying (good luck with that).
    antiskeptic wrote:
    The question wasn't so much concerned with the hows as with the what if's

    The 'what if' was summed up in the first sentence. I merely expanded on that.


  • #14
    Improbable
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,576 ✭✭✭Improbable


    gbee wrote: »
    My view would be like this: If I send my child to a Catholic School, I'd expect the Catholic ethos.

    However, as I don't believe in religion, it should not make a difference who taught my child, as long as they did not try to impose THEIR religion on my child.

    There are difficulties as parents may not have a choice in where their child goes, despite their own religion or lack thereof.

    If I sent my child to a catholic school, I'd wonder why a religious organisation is allowed to control 90% of the primary schools in the country. Actually, I lied, I wonder about that already and I don't have kids.

    Given that they do control 90% of the schools and that the part of the curriculum dealing with religion was set by the catholic church, I would see that as a massive effort to impose their religion on children.


  • #15
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Improbable wrote: »
    Given that they do control 90% of the schools and that the part of the curriculum dealing with religion was set by the catholic church, I would see that as a massive effort to impose their religion on children.

    Pretty much exactly what it is.


  • #16
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,587 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    antiskeptic wrote: »
    The atheist camp ...
    I don't know what that is - but it sounds waaay better than Jesus Camp.
    antiskeptic wrote: »
    What about the fact that the Catholic church are also paying for it. The schools are theirs after all?
    The church may own the property - but we pay the rent.


  • #17
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,834 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    Dades wrote: »
    I don't what that is - but it sounds waaay better than Jesus Camp.

    Atheist camp is loads of fun, but dont forget its BYOB (Bring Your Own Baby) :pac:.


  • #18
    eblistic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 162 ✭✭eblistic


    Improbable wrote: »
    the part of the curriculum dealing with religion was set by the catholic church.

    I've been lead to believe that a school with a Catholic "ethos" could, and would, allow that ethos to permeate all aspects of the school day (not just religious instruction). Is that not still the case?


  • #19
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,458 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    antiskeptic wrote: »
    What about the fact that the Catholic church are also paying for it. The schools are theirs after all?
    I can't comment country-wide, but certainly in the schools I'm aware of, the church "built" schools by funnelling cash it received from (a) a bequest for this specific purpose (b) a local collection it, or its parishioners, happened to organize or (c) State funds received for the purpose. In no case I'm aware of, did the church pay for a school from central funds (though I'm sure there must be some instances).

    The situation we have is equivalent to a conveyancing solicitor continuing to control a house for whose sale he once happened to do the paperwork.


  • #20
    antiskeptic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,555 ✭✭✭antiskeptic


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Sure, just remove all public funding. Eventually, the church will realise it cannot sustain so many schools so they'll either give the schools to the public (as it should be) or make them fee-paying (good luck with that).

    Since public funding comes from the public, it strikes me as fair that the funding be divvied up according to the wishes of the public (globally speaking).

    So say 40% of the public said they wanted their donation to fund Catholic schools, 10% to Protestant and 50% to secular you'd end up without fee-paying Catholic/Protestant/Secular schools and all able to run according to the ethos of the parents. Happy (and fair) days.

    The excess Catholic schools could be disposed of (or not) as the owners of those schools see fit.

    However, you would probably also find that the State cannot sustain a school system by itself and so might well have to consider the wishes of those agencies whose contribution it so badly needs. I mean, what sense in biting the hand that feeds?


  • #21
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    antiskeptic wrote: »
    It'd be interesting to see what would happen if Roman Catholicism kicked out state funding and funded their own schools.

    They would go bust within a week.


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  • #22
    eblistic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 162 ✭✭eblistic


    robindch wrote: »
    I can't comment country-wide, but certainly in the schools I'm aware of, the church "built" schools by funnelling cash it received from (a) a bequest for this specific purpose (b) a local collection it, or its parishioners, happened to organize or (c) State funds received for the purpose. In no case I'm aware of, did the church pay for a school from central funds (though I'm sure there must be some instances).

    The situation we have is equivalent to a conveyancing solicitor continuing to control a house for whose sale he once happened to do the paperwork.

    This has always baffled me when it came to the Church claiming ownership of all of the schools it has been the patron of. How much has the RC itself really contributed (as opposed to local communities and the State as you say)? I'd love to see some proper research in this area. How solid are their claims legally?


  • #23
    antiskeptic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,555 ✭✭✭antiskeptic


    Wicknight wrote: »
    They would go bust within a week.

    Which is about the aame time as it would take for the schools system to collapse. Which points to the fact that both sides need each other.

    So much for simplistic The State Shall Dictate solutions.


  • #24
    D4RK ONION
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,678 ✭✭✭D4RK ONION


    On the question of whether she was qualified to teach Religion, the answer is probably yes, everyone who does the B.Ed tends to do the Cert in RE (Catholicism tbh) so that they can teach in over 90% of the schools in the country. I had to do it, I'm sure she did too.

    As I said in the other thread, I think this is a good step towards a more secularist education system, but it's going to be a lot longer before we see the church handing any schools over, imo.


  • #25
    totoal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 162 ✭✭totoal


    D4RK ONION wrote: »
    On the question of whether she was qualified to teach Religion, the answer is probably yes, everyone who does the B.Ed tends to do the Cert in RE (Catholicism tbh) so that they can teach in over 90% of the schools in the country. I had to do it, I'm sure she did too.
    Article wrote:
    A TEACHER who lost the offer of a permanent post after she failed to furnish a Catholic religion certificate
    I take it she didn't have the cert unless it was lost,stolen,eaten by the dog...


  • #26
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,458 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    eblistic wrote: »
    How much has the RC itself really contributed (as opposed to local communities and the State as you say)?
    As above and to the best of my knowledge, the contribution has been minimal. Though you wouldn't have guessed that from what the church says about itself and its connections with the schools.
    eblistic wrote: »
    I'd love to see some proper research in this area.
    So would I.
    eblistic wrote: »
    How solid are their claims legally?
    Legally, I'd imagine that if you hand over your money to a registered charity, then they can do pretty much whatever they like with it.


  • #27
    Rabble Rabble
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,367 ✭✭✭Rabble Rabble


    robindch wrote: »
    As above and to the best of my knowledge, the contribution has been minimal. Though you wouldn't have guessed that from what the church says about itself and its connections with the schools.So would I.Legally, I'd imagine that if you hand over your money to a registered charity, then they can do pretty much whatever they like with it.

    They built the original schools and own the land. The interest of the 19th century State in State education was exactly zero. So they are owed for the land.


  • #28
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,458 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    antiskeptic wrote: »
    One for the a(nti-)theist camp.
    No need to make it personal -- the argument is against the institutional church and its prejudice towards non-members, its pretending it owns the schools and paid for them, its indoctrination of credulous children and so on.

    As we have to point out quite regularly, the argument is certainly not against rank-and-file religious people per se.


  • #29
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,458 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Rabble Rabble wrote: »
    They built the original schools and own the land. The interest of the 19th century State in State education was exactly zero. So they are owed for the land.
    From one school out in Dun Laoghaire:

    135177.JPG


  • #30
    strobe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,872 ✭✭✭strobe


    antiskeptic wrote: »

    What about the fact that the Catholic church are also paying for it. The schools are theirs after all?

    They are? I know in my primary school the tax payer (state) payed fully for the heating, electricity bills ect. They also payed fully for the teachers wages. They also payed the full cost of supplies. Any extras that the state wouldn't pay fully for, when we were building a computer room for example, the difference was made up by fund raising activities by the students and parents. Bake sales, sports day's, those thing where the kids walk around to all the houses in the estate knock on people doors and say "will ye sponsor me me, missus!?!". That's where every penny that came into the school came from and still does come from.

    Was my school the exception rather than the norm? In most other schools do the Vatican wire money over when they need to buy a couple of PC's for the computer room or a few footballs or boxes of chalk? Do they pay any of the teachers wages?


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  • #31
    Ghost Buster
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,172 ✭✭✭Ghost Buster


    Deleted User wrote: »
    No, there's not - not if the public is expected to pay for it.



    Catholic education would be severely crippled in Ireland. Where are they going to get all that money from? They depend on sponging off taxpayer money to teach kids how to not think. Mass attendance is at an all-time low and I'd be shocked if the Vatican felt like giving any money away.

    I bet some prick of a bishop would say to his sheeple 'it's your duty to fund our schools now as well as our legal defence costs'. :pac::pac::pac::pac::pac:

    Oh I dare say they have a few bob saved from the Magdeline laundries and in compensation they either arent paying to the kids they raped or that the tax payers are stumping up thanks to our lilly livered politicians:rolleyes:


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