Public Consultation-NEW Channels Proposed 'RTÉ Two HD Select', 'RTÉjr', 'RTÉ Plus'

Kensington · 15-11-2010 09:18PM

marclt wrote:

There is nothing new or imaginative in what is on offer here, so why consult on it? RTE Digital Aertel - the format already exists - who is to object? It could be done a lot better - look at the new Sky Text. But even if people suggest a better way, what is the likelihood of it being changed.

Well I imagine this is precisely what the consultation is for. Let them know what is and isn't working for you. You'd be surprised what does get taken on board.

rlogue wrote: »

This is all bull****. There was no consultation when Tara TV was switched off and replaced with nothing.

Would you be willing to pay a subscription to a Tara TV type service? Genuinely now, would you?

byte · 15-11-2010 09:19PM

The only issue I have with the proposed channels, is RTE Plus. Is there really a need for a timeshift of RTE1? Especially considering the lack of space to waste on timeshift channels on DTT.

If the channel was to launch, maybe have the better programmes from both RTE1 and 2.

rlogue · 15-11-2010 09:54PM

Kensington wrote: »

Well I imagine this is precisely what the consultation is for. Let them know what is and isn't working for you. You'd be surprised what does get taken on board.

Would you be willing to pay a subscription to a Tara TV type service? Genuinely now, would you?

I would be willing to pay the full Irish TV licence to get all the Irish terrestrials by satellite. Still cheaper than the cheapest Sky sub and the money would go directly to Irish broadcasters.

icdg · 15-11-2010 11:31PM

byte wrote: »

The only issue I have with the proposed channels, is RTE Plus. Is there really a need for a timeshift of RTE1? Especially considering the lack of space to waste on timeshift channels on DTT.

If the channel was to launch, maybe have the better programmes from both RTE1 and 2.

According to the document, the idea is that RTÉ Plus would only be RTÉ One+1 during "Phase 1" which would last for one year. It would then effectively become RTÉ Three and offer alternative sport programmes during weekend afternoons and broadcast some of the US programmes RTÉ currently broadcasts late at night during the evening peak. It appears RTÉ are STILL adverse to use the Red Button (why???) and intend to use a combination of RTÉ Plus and RTÉ News Now to broadcast what other broadcasters use the red button for.

Anyway, the long-term RTÉ Plus is a good idea, but I'm skeptical as to whether that development will happen. Note also that RTÉjr and RTÉ Plus are proposed to be effectively one channel with two LCNs (as for example, CBBC and BBC Three also effectively are) so one cannot broadcast while the other is on air.

Other bits and bobs in the document:
- No RTÉ Two SD on DTT. Apparently SD viewers will be able to view the HD content in SD???? Now someone explain to me why that isn't the case with the HD channels other broadcasters are offering???
-RTÉjr will basically repeat itself from 12noon until 7pm (when RTÉ Plus takes over its frequency). It won't broadcast at weekends initially.
-RTÉ planning to add 8am and 9am news summaries to RTÉ One (odd that they should use a DTT proposal to announce this).
-After May 2012, RTÉ Two will get some of its daytime hours back (after losing them in 1997 to the Den) and will schedule some lifestyle programmes and imports in this slot between 11am-2pm. Now if everyone will have access to RTÉjr by then, why don't they give RTÉ Two back the whole morning. Or give it to TRTÉ, which apparently is deemed not worthy of its own channel?

I say "will" above but of course these are just plans, subject of course to political approval and perhaps more importantly financial constraints and no guarentee that any of it will happen. If it does happen, it will of course make Saorview a lot more attractive (and more sellable to a skeptical public) than a four channel service would have been and for that reason I don't think RTÉ will much problem getting the plans approved. Subject to the Budget/IMF/Euro-bailout not taking a big hacksaw to the RTÉ budget (I don't think it will, because the licence fee is meant to be ringfenced for RTÉ/TG4/S&V, but here is not the place for Politics).

Tom Slick · 15-11-2010 11:51PM

icdg wrote: »

- No RTÉ Two SD on DTT. Apparently SD viewers will be able to view the HD content in SD???? Now someone explain to me why that isn't the case with the HD channels other broadcasters are offering???

Because the others (that I know of) use MPEG2 for SD & MPEG4 for HD?

Minstrel27 · 16-11-2010 12:01AM

icdg wrote: »

It appears RTÉ are STILL adverse to use the Red Button (why???)

Good. I am not a fan of red button services myself.

icdg · 16-11-2010 12:03AM

Tom Slick wrote: »

Because the others (that I know of) use MPEG2 for SD & MPEG4 for HD?

That would sound about right.

Sponge Bob · 16-11-2010 12:35AM

Where are we putting our 'treaty obligation' BBC channels minister ????

The Cush · 16-11-2010 12:45AM

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Where are we putting our 'treaty obligation' BBC channels minister ????

That plan ended with the commercial DTT process.

watty · 16-11-2010 01:07AM

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Where are we putting our 'treaty obligation' BBC channels minister ????

RTE told the Oireachtas we would have to get Freesat

There is no "treaty obligation" Free BBC.

senordingdong · 16-11-2010 08:39AM

The Cush wrote: »

I guess they can't but DTT has to happen by end of 2012, as per an EU recommendation many years ago. It should have launched 10 years ago, now it has to be done in two years. The benefit to the state will be the financial gain from the sale to mobile operators of released TV spectrum.

The money for Project 2025 will come from the sale of part of the RTÉ Campus.

In fairness, the EU made similar statments about broadband but this country is still lagging behind.

The Cush · 16-11-2010 01:59PM

senordingdong wrote: »

In fairness, the EU made similar statments about broadband but this country is still lagging behind.

Most EU countries will have ASO'd by the end of 2012 bar maybe Poland and Romania. The released spectrum is to be auctioned by Comreg next year and be available for mobile use by early 2013.

watty · 16-11-2010 02:07PM

We are lagging. Incorrect figures have been supplied to EU.
We were 10 years behind on DSL unbundling.

The 800MHz sell off will never provide Broadband if sold for Mobile.

The EU is expecting people, YEARS ago to start FTTC and FTTH for Broadband. Not 3G/HSPA or LTE on 800MHz. Those are not regarded as Broadband except by Irish Government.

STB · 16-11-2010 03:02PM

icdg wrote: »

According to the document, the idea is that RTÉ Plus would only be RTÉ One+1 during "Phase 1" which would last for one year. It would then effectively become RTÉ Three and offer alternative sport programmes during weekend afternoons and broadcast some of the US programmes RTÉ currently broadcasts late at night during the evening peak. It appears RTÉ are STILL adverse to use the Red Button (why???) and intend to use a combination of RTÉ Plus and RTÉ News Now to broadcast what other broadcasters use the red button for.

Content. Money. Resources.

Whether they use a red button or not (and broadcast as an extra station clearly in the mux) it all comes down to the same problem. Bandwidth. It is highly likely that the second mux will be required. What you are proposing just means more stations to run in my view.

radiospan · 16-11-2010 03:19PM

Tom Slick wrote: »

Because the others (that I know of) use MPEG2 for SD & MPEG4 for HD?

Yeah I think that's pretty much it.

There will be no Saorview-licensed equipment that will be able to decode SD and not HD. They'll all decode the HD channel, so no need to waste bandwidth on an SD version.

(Even now, are there many TV's or STB's out there that can do MPEG4 but not HD?)

watty · 16-11-2010 04:12PM

Neotion CAM, Sagem Picnic and a couple of other boxes on eBay sold as "compatible with Irish TV". RTE is actually contacting eBay sellers that make any such claim on an MPEG4 non-HD box or that even claim "Saorview" when there is no certification.

STB · 16-11-2010 04:27PM

watty wrote: »

Neotion CAM, Sagem Picnic and a couple of other boxes on eBay sold as "compatible with Irish TV". RTE is actually contacting eBay sellers that make any such claim on an MPEG4 non-HD box or that even claim "Saorview" when there is no certification.

Good! Regardless of certification. There are 2 particular boxes that I keep seeing

1. Sky Picnic Box (Sagem IDT 81)
2. Philex Skyline (sometime no name black box) priced up at €65 by a COrk based ebayer. BUT in this particular case it is a guy mass selling these boxes, originally as Irish DTT Box and lately saying Saorview Irish DTT Box.

Both only have the capability to process SD MPEG4 (HP@L3). They cant do HD stations and should not be sold here.

loyatemu · 16-11-2010 04:57PM

none of the above - seriously this is all just an attempt by RTE to bolster its position in the face of likely cutbacks.

If commercial operators don't think additional channels are viable over DTT how are RTE planning to finance them - license fee increases? Or will they just be running endless repeats? The last thing we need at this juncture is an expanded RTE - its already ridiculously bloated and self-serving.

watty · 16-11-2010 05:38PM

STB wrote: »

Good!

...

2. Philex Skyline (sometime no name black box) priced up at €65 by a COrk based ebayer. BUT in this particular case it is a guy mass selling these boxes, originally as Irish DTT Box and lately saying Saorview Irish DTT Box.

Both only have the capability to process SD MPEG4 (HP@L3). They cant do HD stations and should not be sold here.

That's the puppy... If he was in China. But RTE know where Cork is and who he is. If it's the same guy, some of the listings already pulled.

scath · 17-11-2010 08:06PM

BTW guys, some of you may like to give your feedback regarding the proposals to RTE. But remember that its more useful if you contact them regarding same to remember that while a consultation is open they are not meant to get involved in same. The public needs to give their own views independently to the Dept. These will be sifted through. When the consultation has closed, then its the appropriate time to give views directly and perhaps receive a reply as to why such approach is taken. It wouldn't be balanced were they to engage during the consultation as could devalue the consultation and be perceived to be biasing the outcome of the consultation.

Elmo · 17-11-2010 09:09PM

Around the time of the Dail Comittee meeting in which Conor Hayes suggested in a very roundabout way what channel RTÉ Might launch, 4 months after the Minister signed the SI stating that Saorview would be operational and available to 90% of the population. It then took RTÉ another 5 months to provide the Department and the BAI with a list of channels it proposes for a full launch of Soarview sometime in Spring 2010 (at least another 5 months away at most 7 months). The Department then announces a public consultation which will last until 10 Dec 10, meaning they are going to have to sift through all of those responses and on top of this the BAI has to carry out a Sectoral Impact Analyses on the new channels, how long will that take? once both of these things are finished the Minister makes his decision (if he is lucky enough to do that). Now I think these are important processes to go through but its like there is no rush about them. And after all of this the new channels are: -

RTÉ Two HD Select (not a new channel just a new format in a manner similar to RTÉ Colour (I know I am going to be shot down for stating that

)
RTÉ Junior (not a new channel just a simulcast and repeat of the last six hours of RTÉjr on RTÉ TWO)
RTÉ + (not a new channel just a 1 hour delay of RTÉ 1 from 7pm).
RTÉ Aertel Digital (RTÉ Aertel in Digital)

So in conclusion we are wasting another 10 months on repeats which really should have been part of a trail 10 months ago, and which should be now on air as part of the initial role out of DTT. Again I don't expect these channels to be available in a few years time, I expect that RTÉ Two will be RTÉ Two HD in full.

So a process for 4 non-new-channels :mad:

marko_polo1234 · 19-11-2010 09:57PM

hi guys,
here's my opinion of the new channels:
RTE Two HD- they shud get the football, rugby, gaa, us series on the hd channel and slowly migrate the irish, rte programmes to hd -that wud be the best idea in my opinion

RTEjr - they shud make 2 seperate young peoples channels - TRTÉ and RTÉjr with the exact same schedules only on 2 different channels- RTEjr broadcast from 8am til midday and then TRTE broadcast from midday til 5pm

RTE+ -they shud start it off as RTE One+1 then when more bandwith is available change it into a general entertainment channel and broadcast the channel full time. The name of the channel should be RTÉ + or else be called RTÉ Extra. After 2012 there would be no point of a time shift channel like RTÉ One+1 because there would then probably be Saorview DVR's like the currently available Freeview+ DVR's.

RTÉ Digital Aertel - no objections to it but it shud have a good interface

Elmo · 20-11-2010 03:27PM

marko_polo1234 wrote: »

RTE Two HD- they shud get the football, rugby, gaa, us series on the hd channel and slowly migrate the irish, rte programmes to hd -that wud be the best idea in my opinion

Seems to the their Idea

RTEjr - they shud make 2 seperate young peoples channels - TRTÉ and RTÉjr with the exact same schedules only on 2 different channels- RTEjr broadcast from 8am til midday and then TRTE broadcast from midday til 5pm

Basically this is just the begin for RTÉjr and TRTÉ. The new RTÉjr will simulcast on on RTÉ Two during early hours in the first few years for those still in Analogue land, while the repeated durations are there to provide some programming on their extra station to begin with. I imagine that TRTÉ will take over from RTÉjr on RTÉ Two in the future.

RTE+ -they shud start it off as RTE One+1 then when more bandwith is available change it into a general entertainment channel and broadcast the channel full time. The name of the channel should be RTÉ + or else be called RTÉ Extra. After 2012 there would be no point of a time shift channel like RTÉ One+1 because there would then probably be Saorview DVR's like the currently available Freeview+ DVR's.

I think that RTÉ+ to begin with should repeat the late night schedule of RTÉ One and Two, and just be that general entertainment channel you are talking about. This would be the same as RTÉ One +1 and RTÉjr in the afternoons just RTÉ+ would repeat late night schedules a few hours later in the day. Remember when BBC Three used to broadcast on BBC Two as BBC Three on Two, basically at night RTÉ+ on One and Two.

RTÉ Digital Aertel - no objections to it but it shud have a good interface

It is currently only a "trail" - no matter how much I dislike that term.

Macy0161 · 24-11-2010 12:46PM

marko_polo1234 wrote: »

RTEjr - they shud make 2 seperate young peoples channels - TRTÉ and RTÉjr with the exact same schedules only on 2 different channels- RTEjr broadcast from 8am til midday and then TRTE broadcast from midday til 5pm

I'm not really bothered (yet) about TRTE, but RTEjr should be the full day a la cbeebies.

Is there some cross over with TRTE content and RTE2 general content anyway? Home and Away and the likes...

Referring to earlier points about "red button" services, are RTE being pragmatic having these as seperate channels? There's a number of otherwise compliant receivers and tele's that don't meet the mheg5 standard aren't there? Also, I suspect a lot of the analogue only households left would be older people who would be averse to technology - even pushing a remote button! If there's no bandwidth implications, which I don't see why there would be, why not have seperate channels? More channels will be an easier sell to the none technie's imo.

Elmo · 24-11-2010 01:19PM

Macy0161 wrote: »

I'm not really bothered (yet) about TRTE, but RTEjr should be the full day a la cbeebies.

Is there some cross over with TRTE content and RTE2 general content anyway? Home and Away and the likes...

Referring to earlier points about "red button" services, are RTE being pragmatic having these as seperate channels? There's a number of otherwise compliant receivers and tele's that don't meet the mheg5 standard aren't there? Also, I suspect a lot of the analogue only households left would be older people who would be averse to technology - even pushing a remote button! If there's no bandwidth implications, which I don't see why there would be, why not have seperate channels? More channels will be an easier sell to the none technie's imo.

RTÉjr currently takes up most of the day in comparision to TRTÉ and Two Tube.

None techy users should perhaps try using Aertel for a few months before hitting that red button.

once both of these things are finished the Minister makes his decision (if he is lucky enough to do that)

IMO if we get a FG minister these channels will never see the light of day.

watty · 24-11-2010 01:19PM

Interactive should not be crippled because some people have non-compliant TVs.

Full time video should be on it's own channel. But Wimbledon, Olympics etc example of when feeds may be better in Interactive.

Also 384 x288 and other interactive video for enhancing an Interactive system doesn't warrent a separate channel. Some video resolutions only "play" properly via MHEG5 infrastructure.

MHEG5 can be a lot more useful than a simple Teletext replacement with current channel in a window.

watty · 24-11-2010 01:37PM

Elmo wrote: »

RTÉjr currently takes up most of the day in comparision to TRTÉ and Two Tube.

Daytime Children's TV Channel is basically RTÉjr

The only really new elements are RTE News Now (which needs to be a bit better, but that needs money) and the MHEG5 based Interactive, which would include Text.

The MHEG "Text" is on a "Text" button. Just like teletext. Red or other coloured buttons are for any other feature. If the TV or PC application (PC stick or card) has no MHEG5, then "Text" button gives Teletext. If the TV or PC application (i.e. Windows Media Center Player on Win7 only) does MHEG5, then currently you get the MHEG5 based text, with photo advert and current channel in a window. No Red button involved.

Elmo wrote: »

IMO if we get a FG minister these channels will never see the light of day.

I don't see logic of that.

In fact technically, Minister Ryan or DCNER shouldn't be involved. It's up to RTE to decide what they want and get approval from BAI. It's nice to be asked what we think, but you don't get the Government or the Population to design & specify content of a Broadcast Platform. That way destroys innovation and leads to a lowest common denominator. Or a Camel.

Basically the Government has done no funding of RTE or RTE NL's Digital Rollout. They need to pay for Oireachtas TV to be carried. The Infrastructure for TWO channels has existed for years. The cost is minimal. DDR was EAST Germany (German Democratic Republic). The Current Government keeps reminding us that FF is Democratic party. Well, then Oireachtas TV could have been on DTT since 2008. The AWOL byelections ...

No, FG vs FF etc is not the issue for new RTE channels or Saorview content, just money.

The BAI has no mandate or right to block any content any broadcaster wants to put on Saorview that does not break it's guidelines. TV3 and TV3e have a licence after all.

How long should it take BAI to approve RTE's proposals? It should been done by end of July 2010.

Is BAI value for money? How much does it cost? How many people does it employ vs the amount of work?

How many new channels (TV/Radio) content does it get a month? They don't approve Spectrum (Comreg does that). Only Content.

One person could do BAI's job. Of course they want to enlarge their empire.

Elmo · 24-11-2010 02:44PM

From a political idealogical point of view it would make sence that FG wouldn't wish for either RTÉjr or RTÉ+ and that such TV should come from private companies (ditto FF). FG's communications spokesman wants a reduction in the TV licence. I just think that FG and FF stall things and eventually someone has to try to push things, not saying that min. Ryan did well on the whole push, after all he did often referrer everything back to the BAI.

The BAI has no mandate or right to block any content any broadcaster wants to put on Saorview that does not break it's guidelines. TV3 and TV3e have a licence after all.

It has a mandate to issue licences???? TV3 and 3e do have a licence but they should pay if they are on any public funded network. And the BAI is also involved in Regulating such content.

From what I gather the system that RTÉ is being put under is similar to that of Sweden. Public Consultation, BAI review followed ultimately by the Minister taking on the those views when deciding. AFAIK however this only applies to RTÉ not to commercial broadcasters who just apply to the BAI. When Boxer won the licence there was no public consultation, BAI review or Ministerial/Departmental approval (and that just lead to One Vision and then to Easy TV)>>>> This also means that there is no responsibility except for the QUANGO which was under no pressure politically or publicly as ****ing usual. The only difference with Sweden was the Communications Committee was also involved in the process and Private Broadcasters where treated in the same manner and they issued content licences.

Also I don't believe such consultation took place for any of the new commercial radio broadcasters.

watty · 24-11-2010 05:07PM

The old RTE Authority is gone. With Abolishment of BCI, and creation of BAI.

It's totally wrong if Government is directly involved in Channel Content. That's what BAI is for.
http://www.bai.ie/

Licences are separate from Content of Channels. TG4, Oireachtas TV & RTE automatically exist as Broadcasters. The others get licences via BAI
http://www.bai.ie/licensing.html

Separate from being licenced as a Broadcaster. For ALL Broadcasters the TV content is approved by BAI (the actual channels)

In addition to the licensing of a national television service, the BAI is also responsible for the licensing of content on digital, cable, MMD and satellite systems. The licensing of content on these systems is an ongoing process with no timeframe for applications and no competitive licensing process.

http://www.bai.ie/licensing_television.html

FUNCTIONS
The Broadcasting Authority of Ireland has a number of functions, as set out in legislation. These functions are as follows:

* To develop of a Statement of Strategy for the regulation of broadcasting services in Ireland;
* To develop broadcasting codes and rules;
* To develop of a right of reply scheme;
* To licence broadcasting and multiplex services;
* To provide guidance for RTÉ and TG4;
* To consult with the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources on a range of issues; and
* To consult with the Commission for Communications Regulation on frequency planning and allocation for radio and television services

http://www.bai.ie/about.html

However CAI, ASAI, Comreg and BAI are useless.
BAI & Comreg should be combined with completly clean sweep of management and a Consumer orientation. Comreg is only concerned about raising money for Dept of Finance and avoiding friction between Vendors.

The Cush · 24-11-2010 05:21PM

The Ministerial/Departmental involvement in this consultation process is dictated by the Broadcasting Act

Section 103 of the Broadcasting Act 2009 provides the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources with responsibility to consider requests by RTÉ or TG4 for new channels and services and to make a determination on whether to consent to these channels. As part of this process the Minister is required to:

1. consult with the broadcaster concerned and other persons, as he sees fit;
2. consult with the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland (BAI) as to the sectoral impact1 of the proposals;
3. consider the public value of the proposals; and
4. publish a statement outlining the consultations that have taken place and indicating a place at which any documents given to the Minister in the course of the consultation may be inspected.

Prior to his consideration of the public value of the RTÉ proposals, the Minister has decided to publicly consult on the proposals.

(The BAI is currently consulting with industry in relation to the sectoral impact of the proposals and will report to the Minister on this. This consultation will not consider sectoral impact.)

Public Consultation-NEW Channels Proposed 'RTÉ Two HD Select', 'RTÉjr', 'RTÉ Plus'

Comments