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Wearing of the Poppy! Should Irish citizens wear it?

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Comments

  • #362
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Nodin wrote: »
    Your mask is slipping again.

    aah come on. i expected better from you. Because I criticise a group that might be Irish and might be Catholic I am obviously a sectarian bigot.:rolleyes:

    This is After hours, so i suppose the odd random shouting of RACIST RACIST RACIST is appropriate.


  • #363
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »
    horrific if you judge the vast majority of people in that stadium to the couple of guys who chose not to be silent.

    for a couple of guys they made an awful lot of noise and I am not judging the whole stadium, the majority of Celtic fans were pretty embarrassed by that.

    The decent celtic fans all seem to think it was organised by the Green Brigade, which is not a couple of people (These are the same people behind the BLOOSTAINED banner this week)
    hotmail.com wrote: »
    I saw a woman on Sky News yesterday saying that without these dead men, we wouldn't have the freedom we enjoy today.

    That's complete rubbish. World War I had nothing to do with national freedom - it was a war fought over jealousy and international prestige that got out of control.

    WWII may have been a bit more critical though.


  • #364
    The Waltzing Consumer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,949 ✭✭✭The Waltzing Consumer


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    for a couple of guys they made an awful lot of noise and I am not judging the whole stadium, the majority of Celtic fans were pretty embarrassed by that.

    The decent celtic fans all seem to think it was organised by the Green Brigade, which is not a couple of people (These are the same people behind the BLOOSTAINED banner this week)
    .

    Wait, you support this flower thing which funds soldiers who have invaded and occupied foreign countries and murdered people, yet you get offended by fake blood on a banner? Bit bizarre, if you support your troops, fine, but stop faking this "I am shocked" commentary.


  • #365
    Dionysus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,420 ✭✭✭Dionysus


    LordSutch wrote: »
    Wow! maybe you wish the Germans-Nazi's had won the two World Wars?

    I was under the impression that most especially the Russians and then the Americans were primarily responsible for defeating Nazism, with Britain a brave but firm third (despite huge misconceptions to the contrary, the number of British who actually died in WWII is far less than Russia, China, Poland and even Indonesia. See chart here). Does the poppy recognise these Russian and American deaths? No. It only commemorates those who died on the British Commonwealth's side.

    So, by your own rationale (if one can call it that) maybe it's you who wishes that the "Germans-Nazi's" (whatever that is) had won the two World Wars"? Why are you not commemorating the ten million-odd Russians who died because of the Nazi invasion of their country in WW II? Why? If you genuinely sought to commemorate people who fought in WW II, then you wouldn't limit your commemoration to only those who fought in British Commonwealth forces. Saying you're doing so but in effect having a British nationalist commemoration which excludes the Russians and Americans is hypocritical.

    LordSutch wrote: »
    You do realise that we were part of the UK during the Great War.

    Oddly enough I never realised that. I thought the Easter Rising was against centuries of French colonial rule in Ireland, which explains why we are all posting in French. Thanks for sharing this amazing historical detail. If it's really true that Ireland was under British rule during WW I, then are you saying the people in the Easter Rising were fighting for Irish freedom against the British, the same British that this poppy commemorates? My oh my.:rolleyes:


  • #366
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »
    Wait, you support this flower thing which funds soldiers who have invaded and occupied foreign countries and murdered people, yet you get offended by fake blood on a banner? Bit bizarre, if you support your troops, fine, but stop faking this "I am shocked" commentary.

    No problems with the banner, that's up to them. They should at least show some respect for the country they are in though.


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  • #367
    The Waltzing Consumer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,949 ✭✭✭The Waltzing Consumer


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    No problems with the banner, that's up to them. They should at least show some respect for the country they are in though.

    You could say the same about your armed forces, waaayayayyyyy!:D


  • #368
    KeithAFC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,239 ✭✭✭✭KeithAFC


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    No problems with the banner, that's up to them. They should at least show some respect for the country they are in though.
    They are confused.


  • #369
    ejmaztec
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,275 ✭✭✭✭ejmaztec


    This thread's a minefield, which is quite apt in the circumstances.

    It hasn't changed my opinion that the British government should cough up, and not leave it to charities to do the job for them. They've always had an appalling attitude to the deceased or crippled service-men, service-women and their families. None of the "left-overs" should be left wanting.

    If the British government did the right thing, it would also stop the annual poppy-punchup.


  • #370
    Wile E. Coyote
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,560 ✭✭✭Wile E. Coyote


    LordSutch wrote: »
    You do realise that we were part of the UK during the Great War.

    You do realise WHY we were part of the UK during the Great War?


  • #371
    Mike 1972
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,018 ✭✭✭Mike 1972


    LordSutch wrote: »
    Wow! maybe you wish the Germans-Nazi's had won the two World Wars?.

    There were Nazi's (German or otherwise) fighting in WW1 :confused:


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  • #372
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,076 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    No Mike, the Nazi's only came into power in the 30s.


  • #373
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    LordSutch wrote: »
    Wow! maybe you wish the Germans-Nazi's had won the two World Wars?

    You do realise that we were part of the UK during the Great War.

    'O Noes ze Germans' again......

    You do realise that the Poppy is not limited to veterans of/commerating the world wars?
    FrattonFred wrote:
    Because I criticise a group that might be Irish and might be Catholic I am obviously a sectarian bigot.

    I never mentioned anything about sectarian bigotry.


  • #374
    Rebelheart
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,077 ✭✭✭Rebelheart


    dclane wrote: »
    When you start quoting Irish Republican crap about bloody sunday and innocents etc etc. It's not discussing the the core topic here!

    Holy fúck. An amazing, utterly amazing thing to say given that your heroic British forces gunned down the 27 unarmed Irish civil rights protesters in question in the 1972 Bloody Sunday and this British poppy commemorates all those people who served in British forces in all conflicts. This includes the people who shot and murdered the victims on this Bloody Sunday (and the other two Bloody Sundays in 20th-century Ireland).

    All of them. This is the reality. All you pro-British/poppy people persist in obfuscating this reality and talking ráiméis about poppies being just to commemorate all those people who fought against the Nazis in WW II. This, too, is propaganda: the British red poppy only commemorates those people who fought for British Empire/Commonwealth forces. It does not commemorate any other people, including the Russians, who gave of themselves much more in defeating Nazism than the British ever did, or any other people. The British poppy is a tribal, British nationalistic symbol which, given the British state's centuries-old history of suppressing Irish freedom, is loaded with anti-Irishness.

    Now, please desist from propagandising about the British poppy here. Thank you.


  • #375
    PrivateEye
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,283 ✭✭✭PrivateEye


    "But the human bodies, earthly tenements of human souls, they will take as ruthlessly and hold as cheaply as possible. For that is the way of governments. Flesh and blood are ever the cheapest things in their eyes."

    James Connolly.

    There is a photograph of a man in a Royal Dublin Fussilers uniform above me here. He never came home. 'Conscription by starvation' destroyed Dublin at the time of the first world war.

    I don't care if others wear one, but personally I could not. Not only for my great grandfather, but for thousands of men,women and children in Iraq and Afghanistan.


  • #376
    Mike 1972
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,018 ✭✭✭Mike 1972


    Rebelheart wrote: »
    It does not commemorate any other people, including the Russians, who gave of themselves much more in defeating Nazism than the British ever did, .

    Dont the Georgians, Ukrainians, Moldovans, Belarussians, Armenians, Azerbaijanis, Kazakhs, Uzbeks, Turkmenistanis, Kyrgyzstanis and Tajiks deserve some credit too ?


  • #377
    K-9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,313 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    PrivateEye wrote: »
    "But the human bodies, earthly tenements of human souls, they will take as ruthlessly and hold as cheaply as possible. For that is the way of governments. Flesh and blood are ever the cheapest things in their eyes."

    James Connolly.

    There is a photograph of a man in a Royal Dublin Fussilers uniform above me here. He never came home. 'Conscription by starvation' destroyed Dublin at the time of the first world war.

    I don't care if others wear one, but personally I could not. Not only for my great grandfather, but for thousands of men,women and children in Iraq and Afghanistan.

    Eamonn Ceannt - "I bear no ill-will towards those against whom I have fought, I have found the common soldiers and the higher Officer humane and companionable, even the English who were actually in the fight against us. Thank God soldiering for Ireland has opened my heart and made me see pure humanity where I expected to see only scorn and reproach."

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • #378
    Rebelheart
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,077 ✭✭✭Rebelheart


    Mike 1972 wrote: »
    Dont the Georgians, Ukrainians, Moldovans, Belarussians, Armenians, Azerbaijanis, Kazakhs, Uzbeks, Turkmenistanis, Kyrgyzstanis and Tajiks deserve some credit too ?

    Well, Mícheál, it's a wonder in itself to see you standing up for the underdog against imperial powers. It's a slippery slope. At this rate, I can see you in the local standing up on the tables singing The Teddy Bear's Head in no time.

    Anyway, I singled out the Russians because of late I've been reading about the Russian involvement in WW II and in particular the over 1,000,000 Russians who died of starvation alone at the Siege of Leningrad between 1941 and 1944. The Battle of Stalingrad resulted in well over 1,000,000 Russians also losing their lives. These are exceptional figures. When put against the Nazi campaign against British civilian areas, the Blitz (1940-41), they become even more significant: a total of some 43,000 British civilians died in that campaign. Yet the British poppy brigade don't deem this sacrifice worthy of commemorating - such is the tribal, nationalistic nature of the British poppy day campaign.


  • #379
    galwayrush
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,815 ✭✭✭✭galwayrush


    I really don't care if someone here wears one or not, I wouldn't here, but probably would if i was over in the UK on business.


  • #380
    Rebelheart
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,077 ✭✭✭Rebelheart


    K-9 wrote: »
    Eamonn Ceannt - "I bear no ill-will towards those against whom I have fought, I have found the common soldiers and the higher Officer humane and companionable, even the English who were actually in the fight against us. Thank God soldiering for Ireland has opened my heart and made me see pure humanity where I expected to see only scorn and reproach."

    This is all well and good. The fact that the British poppy commemorates only those who fought against honourable men like Éamonn Ceannt, and doesn't commemorate men such as Ceannt, speaks to the tribalism behind this most British nationalist of campaigns.

    The leaders of the Easter Rising took on the most powerful empire in the world, indeed in world history. They were destined to lose their lives. They took up arms, for no payment. Some people here expect us to commemorate the people who, for payment, took up arms to defend the most powerful empire in world history. When all the British nationalistic rubbish is discarded, where, realistically, is the courage there, or the honour, or the ethics?

    The motivations and morality of both sets of people are not comparable, despite what may be fashionable to say today in certain quarters. The "courageous" people on the British side in WW I were in general courageous after the event; they expected the war to be over by Christmas. It wasn't. It was much tougher than they had anticipated. They were, consequently, accidental "heroes" rather than intentional heroes.

    The same cannot be said for the men of 1916 who knew what they were taking on from the outset.


  • #381
    Wile E. Coyote
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,560 ✭✭✭Wile E. Coyote


    galwayrush wrote: »
    I really don't care if someone here wears one or not, I wouldn't here, but probably would if i was over in the UK on business.

    Why would you wear one in the UK but not here? If you agree with what it stands for then wear it. If you don't then don't. Don't use it as a fashion accessory.


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  • #382
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Rebelheart wrote: »
    This is all well and good. The fact that the British poppy commemorates only those who fought against honourable men like Éamonn Ceannt, and doesn't commemorate men such as Ceannt, speaks to the tribalism behind this most British nationalist of campaigns.

    The leaders of the Easter Rising took on the most powerful empire in the world, indeed in world history. They were destined to lose their lives. They took up arms, for no payment. Some people here expect us to commemorate the people who, for payment, took up arms to defend the most powerful empire in world history. When all the British nationalistic rubbish is discarded, where, realistically, is the courage there, or the honour, or the ethics?

    The motivations and morality of both sets of people are not comparable, despite what may be fashionable to say today in certain quarters. The "courageous" people on the British side in WW I were in general courageous after the event; they expected the war to be over by Christmas. It wasn't. It was much tougher than they had anticipated. They were, consequently, accidental "heroes" rather than intentional heroes.

    The same cannot be said for the men of 1916 who knew what they were taking on from the outset.

    Do you see colour, or only black and white?


  • #383
    hideous ape
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 339 ✭✭hideous ape


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    Do you see colour, or only black and white?

    No the vast majority on this island see Green, White and Orange!


  • #384
    Rebelheart
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,077 ✭✭✭Rebelheart


    galwayrush wrote: »
    I wouldn't here, but probably would if i was over in the UK on business.

    Ah, Tadhg an Dá Thaobh, welcome. Níall Garbh/Owen Connolly/Thomas Reynolds/Leonard MacNally would be proud of you.


  • #385
    Rebelheart
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,077 ✭✭✭Rebelheart


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    Do you see colour, or only black and white?

    Is this the best response you can come up with when your very British nationalistic politics in these poppy commemorations is exposed for what it is?

    When you have your fellow British nationalists going on about how amazing their forefathers were for saving the world you're really in no position - no position at all - to be lecturing the rest of us about "grey areas" in history.

    Your commemorations are most certainly not about acknowleding those "grey areas" such as the occupation of Ireland and the murder, by the British state, of tens of thousands of women and children in concentration camps in South Africa at the start of the 20th century and the placing of 1,000,000 Kenyans in the euphemistically named "enclosed villages" in the 1950s, and the execution of over 20,000 Kenyans more. All of the perpetrators of these crimes against humanity are glorified by British nationalists in this poppy commemoration, while the Russians who gave a far greater sacrifice in destroying Nazism are ignored by the same poppy day organisers and supporters.

    It beggars belief how anybody can see the British poppy as apolitical and inclusive. It's as British nationalist as it comes.


  • #386
    K-9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,313 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Rebelheart wrote: »
    This is all well and good. The fact that the British poppy commemorates only those who fought against honourable men like Éamonn Ceannt, and doesn't commemorate men such as Ceannt, speaks to the tribalism behind this most British nationalist of campaigns.

    The leaders of the Easter Rising took on the most powerful empire in the world, indeed in world history. They were destined to lose their lives. They took up arms, for no payment. Some people here expect us to commemorate the people who, for payment, took up arms to defend the most powerful empire in world history. When all the British nationalistic rubbish is discarded, where, realistically, is the courage there, or the honour, or the ethics?

    The motivations and morality of both sets of people are not comparable, despite what may be fashionable to say today in certain quarters. The "courageous" people on the British side in WW I were in general courageous after the event; they expected the war to be over by Christmas. It wasn't. It was much tougher than they had anticipated. They were, consequently, accidental "heroes" rather than intentional heroes.

    The same cannot be said for the men of 1916 who knew what they were taking on from the outset.

    Men like Tom Barry, a leading IRA and Anti Treaty man, William Kent, Eamonn Ceannt's brother?

    In the words of Lemass: "In later years it was common and I was also guilty in this respect - to question the motives of those who joined the new British armies at the outbreak of the War but it must, in their honour and in fairness to their memory be said that they were motivated by the highest purpose".

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • #387
    galwayrush
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,815 ✭✭✭✭galwayrush


    Rebelheart wrote: »
    Ah, Tadhg an Dá Thaobh, welcome. Níall Garbh/Owen Connolly/Thomas Reynolds/Leonard MacNally would be proud of you.
    :rolleyes:
    Why? They are hardly relevant regarding doing business in the UK now days.:rolleyes: Stop living in the past, it will only make you angry and bitter.;)


  • #388
    Rockery Woman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 593 ✭✭✭Rockery Woman


    Dont understand why any Irish person would want to wear it anyway. Can you imagine British people wearing the Easter Lily????

    The British, are entitled to wear their "Poppies With Pride"

    I will stick to Irish pride and celebrating Irish heroism and freedom. I have no reason to celebrate or commerate British history, they have no reason to celebrate ours.


  • #389
    round tower huntsman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 804 ✭✭✭round tower huntsman


    as has been stated over and over, the poppy isnt just about ww1 ww2. its about looking after british war vets from all wars past and present. there was a scot soldier on sky news other day,legs arms blown off in afghanistan, saying that the poppy supports men like him,men that have fought all over world,iraq,falklands,IRELAND,afghanistan........they were his words. the poppy is a show of support for the british war/murder machine. any irish man that wears it is a quisling and a judas.
    no amount of west brit revionism can change britsh armys appalling activites in ireland and abroad. to show support,by wearing a poppy, to the british army, is for any irish man,beyond contempt.


  • #390
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Rebelheart wrote: »
    Is this the best response you can come up with when your very British nationalistic politics in these poppy commemorations is exposed for what it is?

    When you have your fellow British nationalists going on about how amazing their forefathers were for saving the world you're really in no position - no position at all - to be lecturing the rest of us about "grey areas" in history.

    Your commemorations are most certainly not about acknowleding those "grey areas" such as the occupation of Ireland and the murder, by the British state, of tens of thousands of women and children in concentration camps in South Africa at the start of the 20th century and the placing of 1,000,000 Kenyans in the euphemistically named "enclosed villages" in the 1950s, and the execution of over 20,000 Kenyans more. All of the perpetrators of these crimes against humanity are glorified by British nationalists in this poppy commemoration, while the Russians who gave a far greater sacrifice in destroying Nazism are ignored by the same poppy day organisers and supporters.

    It beggars belief how anybody can see the British poppy as apolitical and inclusive. It's as British nationalist as it comes.

    So what are you saying, you won't be buying one?


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  • #391
    Rebelheart
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,077 ✭✭✭Rebelheart


    K-9 wrote: »
    Men like Tom Barry, a leading IRA and Anti Treaty man, William Kent, Eamonn Ceannt's brother?

    We can all be very certain that the British aren't commemorating Tom Barry, the IRA leader, when they commemorate those who fought for the British state. I'd safely say Barry's fate would be more like those British soldiers who decided to desert in WW I and were taken out at dawn and executed for treason.


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