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Bailout megathread.

13567…32

Comments

  • #62
    Amhran Nua
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,124 ✭✭✭Amhran Nua


    kravmaga wrote: »
    Pat kenny mentioned EU may increase to circa 20%
    The plank is talking out his bottom as usual. It would be the equivalent of paying a million euros to give someone lifesaving surgery, then taking them out back and shooting them.

    Before we have any more unfounded rumours muddying the waters, will people please check their sources. Its not much to ask.


  • #63
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,016 ✭✭✭✭jank


    OK so... the bond yeilds have dropped like a stone but why? It appears that the EU after all have said that they will support Ireland in its current crisis. I.E they will bail them out. So the question is has a deal been done? If not then why the sudden decrease of bonds. Have the EU basicly given a blanket guarantee to irish debt?

    Some deal has been stuck behind closed doors somewhere most likely in Korea. Vote YES to Lisbon everyone!!!!


  • #64
    changes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 959 ✭✭✭changes


    Cosmo K wrote: »
    Ireland is in the headlines in Germany, here is an article (in english) in Germany's most influential magazine:

    http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,728582,00.html

    Interesting quote from this german article:

    "Last year, the Irish government already cut public spending by €4 billion, reductions which primarily hit public sector workers and social welfare recipients, although they were felt in all sectors of society. Many wonder where further cuts could come from. This week, labor unions have said they plan to hold a day of protest later this month."


  • #65
    ragg
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,853 ✭✭✭ragg


    jank wrote: »
    OK so... the bond yeilds have dropped like a stone but why? It appears that the EU after all have said that they will support Ireland in its current crisis. I.E they will bail them out. So the question is has a deal been done? If not then why the sudden decrease of bonds. Have the EU basicly given a blanket guarantee to irish debt?

    Some deal has been stuck behind closed doors somewhere most likely in Korea. Vote YES to Lisbon everyone!!!!

    lack of a clear outcome of a default was the problem for the markets. Now they have it the bond prices should drop pretty damn low as it is very low risk to loan money to Ireland.

    Germany, UK, Italy, France and Spain are counting on not having to payout, but the safety net should mean that the borrowing is cheaper as we get out of this mess.


  • #66
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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  • #67
    RichardAnd
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,121 ✭✭✭RichardAnd


    sarumite wrote: »
    Can we quit with the "begrudging" crap. My sister is a teacher and my brother is in the civil service. I don't remember either of them being called begrudgers when they wanted benchmarking. It seemed fair back then that the PS should get the benefit from the good economy. To suggest that it is fair that they adapt to the bad economy as well is not begrudging.


    I couldn't agree more. I recently over heard two men on the dart sharing in their mutual hatred of civil servants. One of the said he was looking forward to the day the IMF come in and "sack the lot o' em".

    Granted, that remark makes little sense but it does coincide with comments on these boards. How many times have I heard posters here say they want to see 20 - 30 - 40 thousands PS workers made redundant. I can't speak for everyone but I dont' want to see thousands of people out of a job, regardless of where they work. A civil servant in work is one more person spending in the economy, let's be careful what we wish for.


  • #68
    Inquitus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,771 ✭✭✭✭Inquitus


    RichardAnd wrote: »
    A civil servant in work is one more person spending in the economy, let's be careful what we wish for.

    A civil servant out of work is twenty grand a year saved.


  • #69
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #70
    danbohan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,914 ✭✭✭danbohan


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.
    Which do you think is best for the country? , what in gods name makes you think that any of our public servant class has any interest in whats best for the country , its me me me , always was


  • #71
    beeno67
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,218 ✭✭✭beeno67


    danbohan wrote: »
    Which do you think is best for the country? , what in gods name makes you think that any of our public servant class has any interest in whats best for the country , its me me me , always was

    Surely the thing is for everyone it is "me, me, me". Are you different? Nearly everyone who posts on this site is looking fir someone else to pay.


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  • #72
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    The result of spending time arguing with people who believe that a change in the markets represents a change in the underlying position of the asset being traded, and that the markets only act on solid information - that is, that the markets are "rational" in the sense that their price signals have a meaning beyond the market because they only act on real information.

    It's the same market that gave Anglo money, though, so I don't think the word "rational" applies.


  • #73
    ei.sdraob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    It's the same market that gave Anglo money, though, so I don't think the word "rational" applies.

    Considering that Anglo investors got paid off, the management is still not in jail, and all losses were dumped on the taxpayers

    not a bad investment at all (for the investor that is).


  • #74
    ardmacha
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,476 ✭✭✭ardmacha


    The point about the begrudgery on this forum is that sensible debate is prevented by simple predjudice.
    the least efficient police/teachers in Europe

    as teachers achieve outputs around the European average and with almost the largest class size in Europe, they are by no means the least efficient in Europe. An argument can be made about pay levels, but this should be made without ignorant predjudice like the above.
    what in gods name makes you think that any of our public servant class has any interest in whats best for the country

    You cannot attribute motive to 300,000 people and say that none of them have any interest in the country. Not all of them do, no less than any other group. Many posters on this forum do not have interest of the country at heart as they are mainly concerned with venting predjudice.


  • #75
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    ei.sdraob wrote: »
    Considering that Anglo investors got paid off, the management is still not in jail, and all losses were dumped on the taxpayers

    not a bad investment at all (for the investor that is).

    I agree 100%; my issue was that Scofflaw appeared to be attributing the "rational" adjective based on some notional "true" value of an underlying asset; something that obviously never applied to Anglo or its cult following.

    Anyone who believes in fairness knows that irresponsible gamblers will never learn unless they lose, and lose big, based on their own choices and responsibilities.

    So basically the gamblers got paid off and want even more blood from the stone, showing no gratitude for being rescued from their crap decisions, while the responsible lenders (assuming that they exist) don't want to touch us with a bargepole.

    Once upon a time "moneylenders" were the scourge of society.....now, apparently, they're given carte blanche by FF to rape our country.


  • #76
    ei.sdraob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    I agree 100%; my issue was that Scofflaw appeared to be attributing the "rational" adjective based on some notional "true" value of an underlying asset; something that obviously never applied to Anglo or its cult following.

    Anyone who believes in fairness knows that irresponsible gamblers will never learn unless they lose, and lose big, based on their own choices and responsibilities.

    So basically the gamblers got paid off and want even more blood from the stone, showing no gratitude for being rescued from their crap decisions, while the responsible lenders (assuming that they exist) don't want to touch us with a bargepole.

    Once upon a time "moneylenders" were the scourge of society.....now, apparently, they're given carte blanche by FF to rape our country.

    Markets/actors within markets make decisions on best available information when they invest.

    I dont think any of them (like Abramovich) knew that Anglo has issues, Anglo did after all lie about their real state and they where moving money around to pass audits and other dodgy stuff.

    Anyways that aside the mistake wasnt people investing in Anglo, the mistake was not allowing Anglo to fail. I dont care what people invest in, just dont come looking for a bailout when you endup being a victim of a scam.


  • #77
    changes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 959 ✭✭✭changes


    ei.sdraob wrote: »
    I dont think any of them (like Abramovich) knew that Anglo has issues, Anglo did after all lie about their real state and they where moving money around to pass audits and other dodgy stuff.

    Yeah not only is the country bailing out anglo but were bailing out a bank that lied to people left, right and centre.


  • #78
    danbohan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,914 ✭✭✭danbohan


    ardmacha wrote: »
    The point about the begrudgery on this forum is that sensible debate is prevented by simple predjudice.



    as teachers achieve outputs around the European average and with almost the largest class size in Europe, they are by no means the least efficient in Europe. An argument can be made about pay levels, but this should be made without ignorant predjudice like the above.



    You cannot attribute motive to 300,000 people and say that none of them have any interest in the country. Not all of them do, no less than any other group. Many posters on this forum do not have interest of the country at heart as they are mainly concerned with venting predjudice.

    we can argue all we like about the efficiency / wages /averages / , or we can try to Analise how many public sector have interest of the country at hear its all irrelevant , what is relevant is that this country cannot afford to pay it and i am sure our bailout masters will see to it , so hopefully we will get some realism from public sector workers , maybe its your unions that are in cloud cuckoo land and are not representing accurately the feeling of the workers , in that case make yourselves heard


  • #79
    danbohan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,914 ✭✭✭danbohan


    beeno67 wrote: »
    Surely the thing is for everyone it is "me, me, me". Are you different? Nearly everyone who posts on this site is looking fir someone else to pay.
    no i am probably the biggest ''me'' here , but i don't go around throwing hissy fits if somebody wants to take my 30 mins to change a cheque . but you are right its our mess and whether we like it or not we shall be paying


  • #80
    changes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 959 ✭✭✭changes


    danbohan wrote: »
    no i am probably the biggest ''me'' here , but i don't go around throwing hissy fits if somebody wants to take my 30 mins to change a cheque . but you are right its our mess and whether we like it or not we shall be paying

    Most public servants that post here have said they don't agree with keeping this 30 mins. I and a few others here don't even get it.


  • #81
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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  • #82
    ArtSmart
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,610 ✭✭✭ArtSmart


    http://ftalphaville.ft.com/blog/2010/11/12/402956/any-new-mechanism-would-only-come-into-effect-after-mid-2013/
    from above link
    ‘At its meeting on the 29 Oct 2010 the European Council discussed the future arrangements for ensuring economic and financial stability in the European Union.
    ‘Whatever the debate within the euro area about the future permanent crisis resolution mechanism and the potential private sector involvement in that mechanism we are clear that this does not apply to any outstanding debt and any programme under current instruments.
    ‘Any new mechanism would only come into effect after mid-2013 with no impact whatsoever on the current arrangements.
    ‘The EFSF is already established and it’s activation does not require private sector involvement. We note that the role of the private sector in the future mechanism could include a range of different possibilities such as a voluntary commitment of institutional investors to maintain exposures, a commitment of private lenders to roll over existing debts or the inclusion of collective action clauses on future bond emissions of euro area member states.’


    also
    http://ftalphaville.ft.com/blog/2010/11/11/401381/the-morning-after-2/

    rte's take
    http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/1112/economy.html


  • #83
    irishh_bob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,700 ✭✭✭irishh_bob


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.


    you seem to have a decent track record in predicting peaks , do you have an opinion on the prescious metal bubble in terms of whether we,ve reached peak


  • #84
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #85
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 42,176 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    danbohan wrote: »
    no i am probably the biggest ''me'' here , but i don't go around throwing hissy fits if somebody wants to take my 30 mins to change a cheque . but you are right its our mess and whether we like it or not we shall be paying

    i dont recall seeing one public servant give out about the 30 minute bank time, do you? i do however recall one union representitive (sp) say something once, but i do believe they were just mouthing off as no members were actually balloted on it.


  • #86
    Lapin
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 18,184 ✭✭✭✭Lapin


    According to Reuters, Ireland is in talks to "receive emergency" funding from the EU.

    http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6AB0P420101112

    The Department of Finance have denied this.


  • #87
    thebman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,012 ✭✭✭✭thebman


    kceire wrote: »
    i dont recall seeing one public servant give out about the 30 minute bank time, do you? i do however recall one union representitive (sp) say something once, but i do believe they were just mouthing off as no members were actually balloted on it.

    But that is why they are in the union! The person represents them on these matters. If they disagree, they should leave the union temporarily until the union starts to align to their interests or change union or start their own.

    As they don't, I'm guessing they aren't as annoyed at the union leaders outburst as the rest of the population and would be quite happy to keep their bank time.


  • #88
    thebman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,012 ✭✭✭✭thebman


    Its pure speculation on Reutres behalf and a very misleading title considering the content is:
    Government officials in Dublin have denied repeatedly that they plan to tap EU funds, and an Irish finance ministry spokesman said after the Reuters story was published, "There are no talks on an application for emergency funding from the European Union.

    Euro zone sources told Reuters that aid discussions were underway, however. One official said it was "very likely" that Ireland would get financial assistance from the EU facility set up after Greece obtained its 110 billion euro bailout in May.

    "Talks are ongoing and European Financial Stability Facility (EFSF) money will be used; there will be no haircuts or restructuring or anything of the kind," one euro zone source said. A second source confirmed the talks.

    Jean-Claude Juncker, chairman of the group of euro zone finance ministers, said on Friday that the EU was following the situation in Ireland very closely but that it was up to Dublin to decide whether to seek support. He said there was no immediate reason to think Ireland would ask for aid.

    Earlier on Friday, Irish Prime Minister Brian Cowen blamed Germany for aggravating Ireland's woes by pushing the idea of asset value reductions for private bondholders in a future rescue mechanism that Berlin wants in place by 2013, when the EFSF facility expires.

    "It hasn't been helpful," Cowen said of Germany's plan, speaking to the Irish Independent newspaper, "The consequence that the market has taken from it is to question the commitment to the repayment of debt."

    Germany may discuss its proposals for the new mechanism next week at meetings of EU finance ministers in Brussels on Tuesday and Wednesday.

    Irish Finance Minister Brian Lenihan said on Friday that the country did not need to ask for EU help because of its substantial cash reserves.

    "The state is well funded into June of next year, we have substantial reserves, so this country is not in a situation or position where it is required in any way to apply for the facility," he said in an interview with RTE television.

    "Why apply in those circumstances? It doesn't seem to me to make any sense. It would send a signal to the markets that we are not in a position to manage our affairs ourselves."

    Reuters have had very misleading articles on Ireland from the start TBH, willing us and the Euro to doom it seems.

    Basically they are saying despite all concerned denying it is happening, we believe it is happening and we are going to write an article saying it is happening and then add just enough to ensure truth to it so we don't get taken to court over it in the future.


  • #89
    Kristopherus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,906 ✭✭✭✭Kristopherus


    thebman wrote: »
    Its pure speculation on Reutres behalf and a very misleading title considering the content is:



    Reuters have had very misleading articles on Ireland from the start TBH, willing us and the Euro to doom it seems. q

    And if you watched Bloomberg this afternoon, you would think we'd be gone by Monday. Only at 5.00pm, when they were signing off, did I hear that the Taoisach had denied that they had applied for EU assistance.


  • #90
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    The result of spending time arguing with people who believe that a change in the markets represents a change in the underlying position of the asset being traded, and that the markets only act on solid information - that is, that the markets are "rational" in the sense that their price signals have a meaning beyond the market because they only act on real information.
    It's the same market that gave Anglo money, though, so I don't think the word "rational" applies.

    Oh sure - I don't think markets are rational at all. However, there seem to be a lot of people who assume that the bond markets are sending rational signals, and that if bond prices jump (in the secondary market) it's telling us something real about how things are actually going here, as opposed to telling us that the markets are uncertain how things will pan out, and are jumping at every half-heard rumour.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


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  • #91
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    Oh sure - I don't think markets are rational at all. However, there seem to be a lot of people who assume that the bond markets are sending rational signals, and that if bond prices jump (in the secondary market) it's telling us something real about how things are actually going here, as opposed to telling us that the markets are uncertain how things will pan out, and are jumping at every half-heard rumour.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw

    actually you dont take chances when your dealing with huge sums of money so if you hear a rumour are you gonna chance losing it or not?


This discussion has been closed.
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