Crime and Punishment, what's your views?

I thought this was about the book.

Don't mind them having televisions (maybe restrict them to watching Loose Women or something? That might be a bit harsh though) but giving them access to games consoles is a bit much.

I'd say the massive overcrowding of prisons is a more pressing issue; Mountjoy for instance is meant to hold about 25% more prisoners than it's safe. Consequently some prisoners get released early as there just isn't enough room for them. Overcrowding and knowledge that you can leave prison a substantial time before you should = higher rates of recidivism.

kateos2 wrote: »

Personally, I think this is ridiculous, you're in prison you shouldn't have any luxuries. It's your own fault, deal with the punishment you get. I think that during the day, prisoners should be made to work, and be of some value to society, be it chain gangs or whatever, they shouldn't just be allowed to sit around and play xbox or watch tv, yes where they go is restricted, but that seems very cushy to me. I think 1 hour of free time a day is plenty, be it exercise, or watching tv in a group room, the rest should either be spent working or in a cell.

I don't find it as bad for less serious crimes, but for those like murder, rape, etc. it needs to be much harsher punishment. I know that if someone close to me was murdered I wouldn't want their punishment to have luxuries, it should be mainly solitary confinement. Although, I would be against the death penalty, my reason, as horrible as it sounds, if they're dead, they won't suffer. The person's family they committed a crime against are going to have to live with what happened, and so should they. They should be put in prison for life, actually life, not the crap life sentences we have here, and have no luxuries, and have to live with what they've done.

What type of punishments would you like to see? or do you think the crime system in Ireland is fine and doesn't need changing at all?

Pretty much agree with everything you've written there. Letting a prisoner have an Xbox is just ridiculous. Sure, they're confined to a cell and shut away from their family, but is that punishment enough? I don't really think so. I guess chain gangs are a good idea in theory, but having seeing them portrayed in movies/TV it seems so extreme. Definitely making prisoners work is a good thing; they may aswell contribute to society while they're serving their sentence, and it may do a lot towards rehabilitating them.

I also am completely against the death penalty (glad you mentioned it in your first post, since it was gonna come up eventually! :pac:) and the reason you mentioned (about them not really suffering) is just one reason. It's horribly expensive, it's been shown not to be a detterent and there's always the chance of an innocent person being executed. Living in a country where the state has the right to take a person's life would bother me a lot.

Agnostic Mantis wrote: »

I'm glad we live in a civilised society- in some countries, they treat prisoners like criminals.

Well, a lot of them are criminals. Sure, some come out of prison and get rehabilitated or whatnot but some people are beyond that.

Seriously though, I never understand the satisfaction people get in debating the use of prisons and sentences. To me, it's kind of depressing that we can even justify humans punishing other humans. The reason someone murders or rapes, is the same reason someone imprisons- because they believe it's right. In a perfect world, there'd be no murder, rape, or unhappiness of any kind. It makes me sad that, though we know logically an ideal, straight-foward world isn't possible, we still try to pretend the real world is one.

What I mean to say is, using crime and punishment as an ideal, and thinking that this dynamic at least sets something right, is tough for me. "Well, that family will never be the same again, but I'm glad they gave him life." Is it right to lock another person up forever? Or even for a day? I can't bring myself to say it is. It's justifying suffering. Is it necessary? Perhaps. A bit like a lot of things in world- hunger, poverty. Necessary by our own standards.

I'm sorry if this sounds bullsh**ty, but I'm much more comfortable in grey areas than in black or white ones.:)

I'm trying to see where you're coming from here, but what's the alternative? Obviously someone who murders or rapes or whatever should not be free to do so. (and I'm not suggesting that that's what you're saying, just in case it's coming across that way.) Without punishment such as prison, what other way is there to deal with it?

amacachi wrote: »

Am I right in thinking that in some prisons the prisoners are still having to slop out?

Yup, pretty sure I heard that on the radio recently. Not sure which prison the report was talking about, but it does happen. While I'd agree with Kate about removing luxuries and so forth, I don't think anyone would advocate something like that. Treating them as criminals - yes. But treating them as animals - no.

People need to think about the effects on society rather than the individuals in prison tbh. Yeah sure, lock them up, have some forced labour, 2 meals a day and maybe batter them every so often. How does that help society? If you send someone to prison for a couple of years and treat them like animals there's only one thing they'll ever do when they come out.

Again, what alternative is there? No one really wants to make people suffer needlessly, but in the case of murderers/rapists/whatever these people often don't care about the effects that their actions have on society. The ideal situation would be to prevent all crime and have no need for punishment, but that's just not how the world works.

Like I wouldn't say I take joy from a prisoner suffering, but if they had done something to me or a loved one, then I can't deny that it would give me comfort knowing that they're locked up and won't be able to do the same thing to anyone else for a long time (or ever, hopefully.)

tl;dr version:
*Harsher prison sentences for crimes in this country.
*Remove luxuries for prisoners (like games consoles and whatnot) but keep their basic human rights (no slopping out etc.)
*Make them work; will be both contributing to society and ciontributing to their own rehabilitation; will help them readjust to working life when they get out of prison.
*No to death penalty
*Am painfully aware that the above post contains idealism and naivety, and that actually maintaining a firm but fair justice and penal system is far easier said than done.

Agnostic Mantis wrote: »

In a perfect world, there'd be no murder, rape, or unhappiness of any kind.

A perfect world requires perfect people, there will always be selfish assholes ruining it for the rest of us, deciding that their bit of income on the side is worth more than other people's lives or happiness.

It makes me sad that, though we know logically an ideal, straight-foward world isn't possible, we still try to pretend the real world is one.

I've never seen anyone pretending the current world is ideal, in any way, so I have no idea where you're going with that.

What I mean to say is, using crime and punishment as an ideal, and thinking that this dynamic at least sets something right, is tough for me. "Well, that family will never be the same again, but I'm glad they gave him life." Is it right to lock another person up forever? Or even for a day?

As for using punishment as an ideal, I can see where you're going with it, the fact that the perpetrator is now suffering (or would be in a different prison system) makes a lot of people feel better, simply because it's a depressing thought that someone who does a lot of wrong could go on without any consequences.

You could argue that punishment for punishment's sake is a pointless endeavour, but tbh that's not what it's really about, it's supposed to keep criminals off the streets for a while and also act as a deterrent against committing crime.
Can't really say anything about how good or bad a deterrent it is, as there aren't really any comparable countries without a prison system.

I'd argue that there should be more effort on education and rehabilitation, and maybe lighter offences shouldn't have a prison sentence (perhaps with longer ones for repeat offenders and serious crimes), but to argue against the system itself is just pointless unless you can actually offer an alternative.

seriousfizz wrote: »

People say that criminals deserve to be locked away, and have the basic right of mobility to be taken away from them. But criminals are just people, like any of us, who have gone wrong somewhere - they've been treated badly, or seen horrible things or whatever. Criminals are a result of society.

I don't think I buy that tbh. I have no idea what motivates most criminals, but saying "oh it's society's fault" is just a cop out imo. Sure it's probably true some times, but it seems like some people are just inherently "bad". Like how would you explain criminals who come from loving homes and good backgrounds?

But thinking about it... what I find criminal is that people can be so cold and in-compassionate, and even delight in the fact that someone else can be sentenced to time in prison. Society says that it's justified because "they're criminals" but they're really not all that different.

Some criminals never show any remorse for their actions. To me, that shows that they are really that different and deserve to be punished harshly by society.

I'm not some cold-hearted right wing nut or anything; as I said earlier, I'm fully against the death penalty and prisons should have decent standards of hygiene and stuff; no one should ever have to slop out. But if someone close to me was killed or raped or seriously assaulted, I can honestly say that I would feel happier knowing the perpetrator was locked up and serving time. I don't think that makes me cold or incompassionate; why should you show compassion to someone who has seriously hurt you or someone you love? Because "society failed them?" Sorry, I just don't buy that.

I'm not sure where I stand on the issue to be honest. It's a very complex one.

I do think that the prison system in Ireland it too lenient but at the same time, people deserve to be treated as people. I think having TVs in the actual cells is going too far but a common room area with a TV and maybe a games console is perfectly acceptable.

I have always found it very weird that there are no uniforms in prisons here. I suppose some people would say it's a form of psychological torture but that's bull; it's a punishment and a reminder that you have done something wrong and have become one of a mass. You are an inmate like any of the other inmates. In my mind this means that a petty thief or whatever might look at a murderer and think "Crap, if I don't watch myself I could be him." However, I know nothing about Psychology so this could be bull too.

I agree with what most people have said about more emphasise on rehabilitation instead of punishment...but we don't even know if it is possible to successfully rehabilitate criminals.

I know it would be difficult, especially now, but there should also be some sort of placement program set up for released prisoners, especially the younger ones. These people clearly need help getting on their feet and finding employment etc. Also if someone who has been institutionalised for a long time adjusting to a non-structured life can be very difficult and could potentially lead to harmful behaviour.

There should also definitely be some sort of work for prisoners. I'm not talking slavery or hard labour but they should be expected to pay for as much of there sentence as possible so that the tax-payer isn't stuck with the bill.

I also do agree with Agnostic Mantis, it's so sad to think that a perfect society isn't possible.


This all reminds me of this quote*:

The Last Battle wrote:

“It’s all arranged. And all for your own good. We’ll be able, with the money you earn, to make Narnia a country worth living in. There’ll be oranges and bananas pouring in–and roads and big cities and schools and offices and whips and muzzles and saddles and cages and kennels and prisons–Oh, everything.”

“But we don’t want all those things,” said an old Bear. “We want to be free."

*any excuse to post a Narnia quote.

Cian92 wrote: »

I think Knifewrench said something earlier about not believing the line "society failed me". At this stage the line is a cop out and cliche, but tbh I think it still holds through. Why is it in America that more a huge proportian of blacks are in prison? Surely blacks aren't worse people? It seems to me that the system has failed them.

If you look at it in income terms rather than race terms then both races are closer, you're right that people's surroundings have a big part to play. In America race also has a big part to play as blacks are likely to get tougher sentences and more likely to be put on death row for similar crimes that whites wouldn't and so on.

EuropeanSon wrote: »

On the issue that killing someone is somehow inherently wrong, I'd ask for a reason as to why this is, beyond "god says so" or some crap about an inherent sanctity of life, which is refuted wonderfully in this article, specifically by his first objection.

Well why bother even locking up murderers then? Who is anyone to say that what they did was wrong?