Fine Gael - Reinventing Government

whatawaster · 07-11-2010 12:19PM #1

It's 89 pages long, so it's a big read:

http://www.finegael.ie/upload/ReinventingGovernment.pdf

Haven't had a chance to read it yet, but these are some of the main points:

The abolishing of over 145 state bodies and companies including the dismantling of the HSE and FAS and their replacement with better, more cost effective alternatives;
· Saving over €5billion, or 1 euro in 10 spent by public bodies, by confronting waste, duplication and inefficiency;
· Externally recruiting new high level specialists in banking, taxation and macro economic forecasting to improve the Dept. of Finance’s capacity to deliver on key tasks;
· At least 1/3rd of all appointments at a senior level in the Public Service (above PO level) will be made from outside the current system for a period of 5 years;
· All lobbyists will have to be registered with the Standard’s in Public Office Commission and recent restrictions to the Freedom of Information Act will be reversed.
· We will establish an Independent Fiscal Council to advise Parliament on issues such as borrowing levels, debt reduction and taxation planning. The Fiscal Council will be accountable to the Oireachtas Finance Committee.

The abolishing of the HSE, FAS and 143 other state bodies can only be a good thing imo

Laminations · 07-11-2010 12:26PM

Kenny will be on RTE Radio 1 at 1 o clock to discuss this. Seems like it contains some good ideas for long needed reform. Hopefully Kenny is asked about the allegations that Cowen knew more about Anglo than he told the Dail and the people - hopefully Kenny lays into him for not responding to these allegations and for being a traitor if they are true

vaasa08 · 07-11-2010 01:12PM

A bit aspirational but in fairness some good ideas regarding Finance Council and at least one third of senior appointments to be from the private sector. I think that the €200k limit on top salaries is about right too.

Now we need is more ideas from Government parties and labour.

Let the debate begin!:cool:

NewHillel · 07-11-2010 01:28PM

Enda was pressed hard on the issue of pensions for retired Public Servants. The troops will be happy - he stonewalled the issue.

Contrast his position with what is being done in the BBC
Better still, look at what has been achieved in eircom - this disproves the myth that existing pension arrangements are sacrosanct. It represents a substantial reduction in benefits for retired staff, who had Civil Service Status.

Where there's a will, there most certainly is a way. The issue is the conflict of interest, involved. If politicians tackle this issue, they are cutting their own benefits. (It would appear that Enda is not immune from that well-established Public Servant mindset. No surrender, what we have we hold! F*&% the rest of you.) In my view, Politicians, serving or retired,who continue to claim excessive benefits, during a time of national crisis are nothing short of traitorous.

Do you really believe that Brian Cowan has earned a pension worth more than €7m? Do you really believe that Minister Mary Harney has earned a pension valued at more than €4.5m?

Enda has no faith in FF, and I have no faith in Enda! (His report merits a D, at best, with a comment "needs to do much better".) I will never vote for FG, while he is its Leader. He has neither the leadership skills nor bottle that it will take for Ireland to retain its sovereignty. His ongoing refusal to tackle issues such as these, and the self-serving failure of the other mainstream parties also, represent a serious threat to our democracy. It risk's radicalizing the mainstream electorate and driving them into the arms of smaller parties - some not known for their commitment to the organs of state. These are unlikly to see us through without outside intervention. Even worse, we cannot be far from a tipping point in terms of social cohesion, as families under pressure see what is happening in the upper echelons of society.

Laminations · 07-11-2010 01:40PM

He wasn't great on some specifics and his lack of desire to cut current undeserved pensions is disappointing. But he did say nobody is guaranteed a job and he recognises major cuts need to be made. Also I think he is damn right to let the government collapse on the budget, their stating in power is damaging us hugely

Rebelheart · 07-11-2010 01:54PM

Just heard Kenny on about this. I didn't hear a word about changing our voting system, and thus ending the clientalism which undermines Dáil Éireann as a national legislative assembly.

I searched for "PR-STV" and "electoral" in the 'Reinventing Government' paper linked above. Nothing appeared. Surely one of the most fundamental changes required to reinvent government is to change the current electoral system?

His proposal to abolish the Seanad makes huge sense, but I can't see the turkeys voting for Christmas. Ever.

The Blueshirts also seem to be more honest than Labour are about the extent of the cuts required. I'll probably vote Labour at the next election but they are trying far too hard to avoid alienating potential voters: they need to start being honest about the extent of the cuts required. It's getting increasingly offensive and spineless.

Then again, neither Fine Gael nor Labour want to be in government at the moment no matter what Kenny (or Gilmore) says to the contrary. It would be madness for them to take the flak for this budget.

Laminations · 07-11-2010 01:59PM

Rebelheart wrote: »

It would be madness for them to take the flak for this budget.

It would be madness for the public to give them flak for this budget. You don't blame the repairman who hands you the bill for the damage that was done by the sleeven theif who wrecked the place. People need to constantly be reminded that the appropriate target of flak is FF.

syklops · 07-11-2010 02:13PM

I searched for "PR-STV" and "electoral" in the 'Reinventing Government' paper linked above. Nothing appeared. Surely one of the most fundamental changes required to reinvent government is to change the current electoral system?

How much money, quickly, will changing the electoral system save? None. Instead it will probably get the state bogged down for decades in legal challenges, paying massive sums to lawyers.

Disbanding FAS, could save money over night. I'm all for long term changes, but right now we need to plug some of the holes that the money is pouring out of.

He wasn't great on some specifics and his lack of desire to cut current undeserved pensions is disappointing.

It always annoys me when people say "He wasn't great on specifics". If you're trying to get into government, and you are going to have some tough decisions when you get in, including cutting pensions of senior public servants, its probably best none of them find out your going to cut their pension, before the election.

You know the reason why turkeys don't vote for Christmas? It's because they know when Christmas is and what it entails.

Dannyboy83 · 07-11-2010 02:46PM

A lot of sensible proposals by Fine Gael.

On the issue of disbanding of the HSE, introduction of FairCare, they'd have my vote alone.

FG get a majority and the crisis is over, bond rates will plummet.
FF stay in or Labour get in, and it's bailout time.

On the bright side, huge changes are coming to Ireland, regardless of what happens now.
The game is up!

NewHillel · 07-11-2010 03:26PM

vaasa08 wrote: »

A bit aspirational but in fairness some good ideas ...:cool:

It's entirely aspirational - pressed on rte, he had no idea as to how he'd make it happen.

syklops · 07-11-2010 03:38PM

NewHillel wrote: »

It's entirely aspirational - pressed on rte, he had no idea as to how he'd make it happen.

How he'd make what happen?

smiles302 · 07-11-2010 05:10PM

Liking the training vouchers instead of FAS. Wonder how they will work...

FreudianSlippers · 07-11-2010 05:40PM

Well, that seals the deal for me. Not a huge fan of FG's social policies, but because of this they will have my vote next time around.

Rebelheart · 07-11-2010 06:02PM

Laminations wrote: »

It would be madness for the public to give them flak for this budget. You don't blame the repairman who hands you the bill for the damage that was done by the sleeven theif who wrecked the place. People need to constantly be reminded that the appropriate target of flak is FF.

I agree with you. Fianna Fáil couldn't be tortured enough as far as I'm concerned; the only major disappointment about FF getting all this shít is that Patrick Bartholomew Ahern is off in the sunset living it up on God knows how many pensions, and in at least one house which was given to him as a present by a property developer, leaving his underlings to take all the flak.

Nevertheless, my point was, and remains, that in the This Week interview Kenny, when asked about Fine Gael's willingness to go into government before the end of this year, said they are keen to put "the people" above party politics and enter into government as soon as possible. This is nonsense.

Rebelheart · 07-11-2010 06:18PM

syklops wrote: »

How much money, quickly, will changing the electoral system save? None. Instead it will probably get the state bogged down for decades in legal challenges, paying massive sums to lawyers.

'None' is not correct. Changing the electoral system will save money by making nationally-elected political representatives much more efficient, with their traditional clientalism being handled by local councillors.

Changing from PR-STV should be part of the same package as the abolition of Seanad Éireann, the radical reduction in the number of TDs (a number in part justified precisely because TDs, unlike most members of parliament across Europe, have much more local issues to work on, something which is due entirely to the multiseat PR-STV system).

Why do you think it would get the state bogged down in legal challenges? PR-STV is not enshrined in Bunreacht na hÉireann, as far as I know, and in fact was insisted upon by the British in 1920/21. There is a sufficient number of people in Ireland who can see its flaws and how it undermines good politics and civic life here. The very fact that idiots such as Healy-Rea can hold the state to ransom should be enough to get this issue widely debated. This sort of stunt just shows how unrepresentative PR-STV has actually become.

JonathanAnon · 07-11-2010 06:24PM

I think a lot of this is aspirational, though I do agree with the sentiments.. The unions wont stand for getting rid of the HSE i.e. and the staff employed.. similar with the quangos... Kenny better be ready to lay down the law to the ZZ Top lads if he is gonna implement any of his plan..

Biggins · 07-11-2010 07:48PM

I haven't read the PDF yet but I will.
In the meantime, I suspect its more of the same old tactic of politicians promises and wishful dreams being shoved upon the public again - and just in time for an nearing election/bye-election too by chance!

I will be reading it soon to see that they say they are going to do about TD's abusing expenses and state office alone (and the corresponding punishments that if they have any honesty, should be incorporated too).

smiles302 · 07-11-2010 07:55PM

Biggins wrote: »

I haven't read the PDF yet but I will.
In the meantime, I suspect its more of the same old tactic of politicians promises and wishful dreams being shoved upon the public again - and just in time for an nearing election/bye-election too by chance!

I will be reading it soon to see that they say they are going to do about TD's abusing expenses and state office alone (and the corresponding punishments that if they have any honesty, should be incorporated too).

I'm nearly half way through, there will be a 200k cap on wages with a 35% reduction in the numbers in the Dail, and a lot more transparency. I didn't notice anything directly related to expenses, but I may have just missed it.

gandalf · 07-11-2010 08:34PM

I see no mention of the list system or partial list system any more. Have they dropped this as one of their reforms going forward. If so I will be extremely disappointed in them as this was one of the main reasons I was considering voting for them.

dan_d · 07-11-2010 08:43PM

I will read the pdf tomorrow, however have been listening to the radio during the day and hearing about it.

The sound bites sound excellent, but unfortunately, until they put their money where their mouth is, I'll remain skeptical. As for convincing me to vote for them...I want to hear what the individuals who turn up on my door step prior to election time have to say before I decide.

Dannyboy83 · 07-11-2010 09:21PM

dan_d wrote: »

As for convincing me to vote for them...I want to hear what the individuals who turn up on my door step prior to election time have to say before I decide.

Why?

As far as I'm concerned, it's as simple as this:

If Labour get in, Ireland is doomed.
They'll piss and moan about public expenditure, they'll heavily increase tax and stifle any possible recovery, and there will be little real reform.

If Fianna Fail stay in, you are rewarding bad behaviour and incompetence.
They probably won't even take the hard choices anymore, as they'll have a new mandate, although it likely would be preferable to Labour.

The worst possible outcome would be a FF/Labour coaliton.

If Fine Gael get in, the eyes of Europe will be on them, waiting to deliver.
Their policies are exactly what this country needs at this moment in time.
Fiscal correction, Fiscal responsibility, Reform of the public service.
If they deliver on only HALF of their promises, we are doing 55 billion times better than we would under FF or Labour.

Fine Gael are obviously going to face heavy opposition from the public services - who are going to vote Labour, but anyone outside the public service should be voting for Fine Gael.

NewHillel · 07-11-2010 09:36PM

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Why?

If Labour get in, Ireland is doomed.
They'll piss and moan about public expenditure, they'll heavily increase tax and stifle any possible recovery, and there will be little real reform.

...

If Fine Gael get in, the eyes of Europe will be on them, waiting to deliver.

Will "the eyes of Europe" not be on Labour, too?

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Their policies are exactly what this country needs at this moment in time.
Fiscal correction, Fiscal responsibility, Reform of the public service.
If they deliver on only HALF of their promises, we are doing 55 billion times better than we would under FF or Labour.

All the policies mentioned will do SFA for our current problems. Where will the axe fall, and how? That's what we need to know. Enda on RTE today, stonewalled any questions on how redundancies might be achieved, the cost, or any question of reducing public sector pensions.

Maybe it really is time they brought in the IMF. In Hungrary they wanted a cap on severance pay to all public-sector workers. It would be great to have this in place before the current lot are kicked out! At least they would be having no big payouts!

Scarab80 · 07-11-2010 10:10PM

NewHillel wrote: »

All the policies mentioned will do SFA for our current problems. Where will the axe fall, and how? That's what we need to know. Enda on RTE today, stonewalled any questions on how redundancies might be achieved, the cost, or any question of reducing public sector pensions.

In my opinion what is good in this document is that it doesn't attempt to impose simple ideas onto a system as complex as the public sector but instead devolves power to the people at the coalface to make those decisions and puts pressure on top public servants to set goals, achieve them, and compete for resources.

How is it that road building started to come in under budget and within time when PPP and fixed cost projects started, there is no one thing that was done differently in the planning and construction stages, but instead the system was put in place which incentivised efficiencies.

I'm very encouraged by this document and if fully implemented could be one the most positive signifcant changes to how the state operates in decades.

bijapos · 07-11-2010 10:44PM

smiles302 wrote: »

I'm nearly half way through, there will be a 200k cap on wages with a 35% reduction in the numbers in the Dail, and a lot more transparency. I didn't notice anything directly related to expenses, but I may have just missed it.

Its actually the Oireachtas they mean here. 226 Senators and TDs at present. Seanad to be abolished, and 20 TDs to go leaves 146, ie 35%.

Its on p. 15 of the document.

I've only started it, some very interesting and good ideas, some old ones rehashed, some is a bit unclear, and some I disagree with. Kenny was on the News at One, he got a bit muddled on some points so I'm not too sure how the whole document will pan out. The big question is do they really intend to implement this when they get in and how many will they actually implement.

cobwebs · 07-11-2010 10:56PM

The implementation of the policies contained in the docuement will take the courage of Collins and the doginess of Cosgrave. The policies are reasonably detailed but there needs to be quick and rapid decisions made once the Government changes. Some will take long drawn out constitutional legislation, such as the reduction of 20 TD's and the abolition of the Senate, but the reform of the Public Service must be exact and decisive.

Scarab80 wrote: »

In my opinion what is good in this document is that it doesn't attempt to impose simple ideas onto a system as complex as the public sector but instead devolves power to the people at the coalface to make those decisions and puts pressure on top public servants to set goals, achieve them, and compete for resources.

How is it that road building started to come in under budget and within time when PPP and fixed cost projects started, there is no one thing that was done differently in the planning and construction stages, but instead the system was put in place which incentivised efficiencies.

I'm very encouraged by this document and if fully implemented could be one the most positive signifcant changes to how the state operates in decades.

NewHillel · 07-11-2010 10:56PM

Scarab80 wrote: »

I'm very encouraged by this document and if fully implemented could be one the most positive signifcant changes to how the state operates in decades.

I don't dispute that, if implemented, the changes would be good for the country. However, none of the urgent, immediate, issues are lookedat. It is these issues that will determine our future, and our childrens future, for the next 5-10 years.

Neither do I believe that Enda is capable of making change on this scale happen. Leo Varaker might be able to, but not Enda. He should step down in the interest of the country.

cobwebs · 07-11-2010 11:03PM

Yeah, I'm not sure about Kenny. However he did show a bit of spunk when Bruton challenged, was not phased when Lee walked and there is that possibility that he might just have the hard nosed approach to implementing the policies. What other choices do we have? The real issue for me is, how do we get the current Government to step aside?

Dannyboy83 · 07-11-2010 11:08PM

NewHillel wrote: »

Will "the eyes of Europe" not be on Labour, too?

No.

We know what Labour's intentions are - As little cuts as possible, increase tax to close the gap - Europe knows this too.

Therefore, if Labour get in, nobody will be watching, and especially not the bond markets because the game will already be up.

There is only one way out of this mess we are in and that is to cut.
I'd rather it were surgery (FG) than butchery (FF), but at least they are both capable of doing what needs to be done - as opposed to Labour - who are ideologically opposed to it.

All the policies mentioned will do SFA for our current problems. Where will the axe fall, and how? That's what we need to know. Enda on RTE today, stonewalled any questions on how redundancies might be achieved, the cost, or any question of reducing public sector pensions.

At least 30k cuts in the public sector, shutting down the HSE & implementing FairCare, shutting down FAS and trying to stimulate the economy.

Plenty of symbolic gestures such as aboloshing the Seanad, cutting TDs by 1/3, cutting ministerial cars etc. etc.

That doesn't sound like SFA to me, on the contrary, it's rather dramatic.

There are plenty of proposals in this document:
http://www.finegael.ie/upload/NewERA2010.pdf
And this is the most exciting one for me - an Irish health system modelled on the Dutch, widely regarded in the top 3 in Europe:
http://www.faircare.ie/FairCare.pdf

Not only do they have ideas about cleaning up the mess, but they have ideas of what to replace it with.

Maybe it really is time they brought in the IMF.

If Labour get in, then the IMF will be coming regardless, or we'll be going crawling to the ESF at least.
There would probably be civil war in the Labour camp - the party who ideologically opposed to any types of cuts having to make the most dramatic cuts in the history of the state - I can't see how it would work tbh.

The only way out of this mess is a FG majority.
If we don't get that, then those of us who can need to seriously think about packing our bags and leaving.

If you are in favour of huge taxes and no quality of life for the next decade at least, then don't vote for Fine Gael.

Scarab80 · 07-11-2010 11:29PM

NewHillel wrote: »

I don't dispute that, if implemented, the changes would be good for the country. However, none of the urgent, immediate, issues are lookedat. It is these issues that will determine our future, and our childrens future, for the next 5-10 years.

The document outlines much needed reforms to the way services are provided in the state, this is what will affect us for the next 5 - 10 years.

The immediate cuts to try to balance the books will be announced pre-budget I assume. I assume this is what you mean by the urgent issues.

NewHillel wrote: »

Neither do I believe that Enda is capable of making change on this scale happen. Leo Varaker might be able to, but not Enda. He should step down in the interest of the country.

I don't have too much faith in him as a leader either, Fine Gael missed a great chance of putting forward a young and exciting team in the defeat of Richard Bruton. This said Enda Kenny is just one part of a team, it's not like the entire responsibility of implementation rests on his shoulders. I think the importance placed on who is leader is overplayed.

syklops · 07-11-2010 11:43PM

The sound bites sound excellent, but unfortunately, until they put their money where their mouth is, I'll remain skeptica

And how, pray, is an opposition party meant to put their money where their mouth is?
What will make you happy?

When they win the election?

Neither do I believe that Enda is capable of making change on this scale happen. Leo Varaker might be able to, but not Enda. He should step down in the interest of the country.

Ah Jaysus.

RedDawn · 07-11-2010 11:47PM

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

If Labour get in, then the IMF will be coming regardless, or we'll be going crawling to the ESF at least.
There would probably be civil war in the Labour camp - the party who ideologically opposed to any types of cuts having to make the most dramatic cuts in the history of the state - I can't see how it would work tbh.

The only way out of this mess is a FG majority.
If we don't get that, then those of us who can need to seriously think about packing our bags and leaving.

If you are in favour of huge taxes and no quality of life for the next decade at least, then don't vote for Fine Gael.

You won't get a Fine Gael majority and you're bloody dreaming if you think you will.

Labour proposes putting up taxes to continental European levels (yeah, like those Dutch people you mentioned earlier), not taxing the place to oblivion AND has agreed that some cuts are needed.

I don't know what your deal is, but clearly you haven't a donkey's backside of an idea about what FG's probable coalition partner is actually advocating...

Fine Gael - Reinventing Government

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