Brian Cowen did know about Anglo Irish

ART6 · 06-11-2010 05:54PM #1

In the Saturday papers today I read reports that Cowen did know about the parlous situation of Anglo long before the issue emerged into the public domain, and that he tried to persuade the NTMA to invest in Anglo to stave off the inevitable. The accusation was made by a former (and unnamed) direct or of Anglo.

Now -- I don't believe everything I see in the press. They sell newspapers and scandal mongering does that well. But if the stories are true, then we have a major issue here. Mr. Cowen occupies the second highest position in the state, and as such his integrity must be beyond reproach. If, indeed, he did know and if the suggestions of meetings and dinners with Anglo directors are true, then I would expect him to say "Yes. I was told. But for a number of critical reasons I chose to follow a policy that, unfortunately, did not have the result I had hoped for." Such a man I would respect. None of us can ever be right all the time.

However, if he genuinely didn't know and wasn't told, then that puts him in the position of a company director. The law states firmly that in that position it is the incumbent's responsibility to know. "No-one told me" is not an acceptable excuse.

The third alternative is one that I would prefer not to believe, although there are precedents for it in Irish politics. The state is under severe pressure from the bond markets, and they will inevitably react to their analyses of the government's stability. Are we now to distinguish between "You said that". "No I didn't". More importantly, will they?

unit 1 · 06-11-2010 06:05PM

In general I have always assumed the government knows what's going on about 6 months before they tell us the plebs, so it's almost a certainty he knew about something of this magnitude long before he will ever admit to, especially since they screwed up after finding out. Also the idea that the boss of the ntma did'nt tell him about anglo is quite frankly ludicrous.:mad:. They are all telling porkies I'm afraid.

BornToKill · 06-11-2010 08:06PM

ART6 wrote: »

However, if he genuinely didn't know and wasn't told, then that puts him in the position of a company director.

I don't quite follow. How would he be in the position of a company director and in what sense?

ART6 wrote: »

The law states firmly that in that position it is the incumbent's responsibility to know.

To which law are you referring? Are you saying that an incumbent Taoiseach is legally obliged to know the internal affairs of every company?

Liam Byrne · 06-11-2010 08:55PM

ART6 wrote: »

"No-one told me" is not an acceptable excuse.

It seems to have worked for the previous (can't put a suitable word here).....

I think it's crazy that Cowen & Lenihan signed up to save the banks "at any cost", and they've since come out repeatedly to say that they didn't know how bad things were.

Neither has credibility, so I don't know what's true.

But either they did, or the banks lied. If they knew and ploughed ahead regardless then they're negligent in the extreme, and if the banks lied then someone should be jailed for fraud.

dissed doc · 06-11-2010 09:10PM

ART6 wrote: »

In the Saturday papers today I read reports that Cowen did know about the parlous situation of Anglo long before the issue emerged into the public domain, and that he tried to persuade the NTMA to invest in Anglo to stave off the inevitable. The accusation was made by a former (and unnamed) direct or of Anglo.

Now -- I don't believe everything I see in the press. They sell newspapers and scandal mongering does that well. But if the stories are true, then we have a major issue here. Mr. Cowen occupies the second highest position in the state, and as such his integrity must be beyond reproach. If, indeed, he did know and if the suggestions of meetings and dinners with Anglo directors are true, then I would expect him to say "Yes. I was told. But for a number of critical reasons I chose to follow a policy that, unfortunately, did not have the result I had hoped for." Such a man I would respect. None of us can ever be right all the time.

However, if he genuinely didn't know and wasn't told, then that puts him in the position of a company director. The law states firmly that in that position it is the incumbent's responsibility to know. "No-one told me" is not an acceptable excuse.

The third alternative is one that I would prefer not to believe, although there are precedents for it in Irish politics. The state is under severe pressure from the bond markets, and they will inevitably react to their analyses of the government's stability. Are we now to distinguish between "You said that". "No I didn't". More importantly, will they?

Welcome to 2005, when you can see Bertie, Brian C and the Cough in the Galway Races tent being bought champagne by the owners of most large Irish development companies and banks. This is how democracy was in Ireland and I am surprised you only realise this now: our government are as in the pockets of big builders and bankers as US senators taking kickbacks for supporting the oil or tobacco industries.

Of course they will use the taxpayer to bail out their friends in the management level of Irish banking and construction.

ART6 · 07-11-2010 11:14AM

BornToKill wrote: »

I don't quite follow. How would he be in the position of a company director and in what sense?

To which law are you referring? Are you saying that an incumbent Taoiseach is legally obliged to know the internal affairs of every company?

I was simply comparing the "I didn't know" and "No-one told me" excuses of politicians to a company director in a similar situation. Neither excuse works for the latter since he is paid to know and is expected to do so. His shareholders and the law hold him responsible. If his actions or inactions damage his shareholder's interests the can be sued and potentially disbarred.

Of course there is no law to obligate the Taoiseach to know the affairs of every company. There are, however, customs that deal with misleading the Dail.

silkworm53 · 07-11-2010 11:19AM

Cowen would have been nuts if he revealed before he had to that Anglo was bust if there appeared at that point to be still a chance of resurrecting the bank without going to the taxpayer to bail them out. That would have been absolutely crazy.
The only people who are still banging on about this issue are people who have failed to grasp that if there is a run on the banks then the entire Irish economy will completely meltdown.
No responsible leader of any country anywhere would have done any different.
It's time a lot of people stopped behaving like they are still wearing short trousers.

Laminations · 07-11-2010 11:35AM

He lied about what he knew and when he knew it. The only people not getting it are those that think it's fine for him to have guaranteed a bank he knew to be insolvent. Cowen has repeatedly said he was unaware of the extent of the problems, if the latest allegations are true, we now have a steaming treacherous liar as Taoiseach, add that to the usurping of our democracy and the gambling of our sovereignty and we have conditions worthy of violent revolution.

More on this story in today's Sindo and a good thread on it over on p.is

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/pressure-on-cowen-to-reveal-what-he-knew-months-before-bank-guarantee-2410676.html
http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/cowen-needs-to-give-answers-or-risk-position-2410715.html
http://www.politics.ie/economy/142027-how-brian-cowen-helped-anglo.html

I can see this being the beginning of the end.
Kenny is on radio 1 at 1 o clock to talk about FGs plans to reform the PS and government, I can see this issue being brought up.

I await the ususal FF fanboys to yet again defend the indefensible and in this case utterly irreprehensible. God speed you little traitors in training

Laminations · 07-11-2010 11:48AM

Even Cowens resident fluffier in the sindo says he has questions to answer and sees this as serious enough to end his leadership

Jody FF cheerleader Corcoran wrote:

(This)...may ultimately be the issue, by accident or design, used to drive him from office and as leader of Fianna Fail, if events do not do that sooner

If the allegations are true it needs to result in more serious consequences than him just losing his job, traitors should go to jail.

the former board member alleges that there is 'no question' but that Fianna Fail protected Sean Quinn. "There has never been a question in my mind that Quinn was protected. Quinn is still protected... Corporate gambling. Really, he got away with it"

ei.sdraob · 07-11-2010 11:56AM

http://www.thepropertypin.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=34051

The Irish Daily Mail headline story from Sat 06/11/10 relating to Clowen allegedly knowing about the Quinn & Anglo situation way back as far as 2007. A very significant developing story.

Laminations · 07-11-2010 12:16PM

I've also just above your post alluded to, and not very subtly, the significance of this story. What are your thoughts ei?

AlekSmart · 07-11-2010 12:23PM

silkworm53 wrote: »

Cowen would have been nuts if he revealed before he had to that Anglo was bust if there appeared at that point to be still a chance of resurrecting the bank without going to the taxpayer to bail them out. That would have been absolutely crazy.

It's time a lot of people stopped behaving like they are still wearing short trousers.

The issue of whether Mr C is "nuts" or not is indeed worth a punt.

However this latest revelation brings a renewed focus on the late Night Meeting with the "Big Banking Boys" of whom Mr David Drumm would have been one,if not in person then at Blackberry length away.

These revelations (again thanks to a UK media organ :rolleyes:) should,in any functioning democracy,finally remove the "Commercially Sensitive" secrecy blanket which that fateful night is wrapped up in.

On a broader sense,Mr Cowens Government appears to be a veritable blueprint for the Victorian "Lying,Untrustworthy Irish" stereotype which we find so distasteful ?

07-11-2010 12:33PM

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11432700

Iceland's former Prime Minister Geir Haarde has been referred to a special court

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5hkg5VhwETJHWaiIqxwwj_PsHQ2Dg

REYKJAVIK — More than a year and a half after Iceland's major banks failed, all but sinking the country's economy, police have begun rounding up a number of top bankers while other former executives and owners face a two-billion-dollar lawsuit.

Will the Irish people get justice or even demand it? Will the Irish people do what the Icelandic people did?

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/news/world/icelandic-police-teargas-protesters/2009/01/23/1232471539417.html

January 23, 2009
Icelandic police have used tear gas to break up an angry protest outside the country's parliament.

Two officers were hospitalised after being hit by rocks.

Reykjavik police chief Stefan Eiriksson said about 2,000 demonstrators protesting Iceland's economic crisis surrounded the parliament building late on Wednesday, hurling fireworks, shoes, toilet paper and other projectiles.

He said police tried to disperse a core of several hundred protesters with pepper spray before using tear gas early on Thursday. There were no arrests.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008%E2%80%932010_Icelandic_financial_crisis#Government_resignation
That crowd never dispersed and surrounded the Icelandic parliament until they ultimately "won". In the end 6,000 people (a large number because the Icelandic population is so small) surrounded the parliament and by the end of January 09 the Government resigned.

Laminations · 07-11-2010 12:35PM

Iceland has the right idea, it makes me so angry that 2 years on we have the same government and nobody jailed

liammur · 07-11-2010 12:38PM

Laminations wrote: »

Iceland has the right idea, it makes me so angry that 2 years on we have the same government and nobody jailed

It amazes me how naive most people are.
Of course the government knew the situation in Anglo. What they didn't know was that the bailout would be €35bn, but they knew it was going to hurt, and hurt badly.

AlekSmart · 07-11-2010 12:39PM

REYKJAVIK — More than a year and a half after Iceland's major banks failed, all but sinking the country's economy, police have begun rounding up a number of top bankers while other former executives and owners face a two-billion-dollar lawsuit.

Ah but our Banks have not failed....have they ?...well maybe they have...but we just don`t know,do we ? cos it`s COMMERCIALLY SENSITIVE !! ........:D

Crikey,the very notion of the Gards "rounding up" any top Irish Banker is the stuff of Peter Cook and Dudley Moore sketches..!

07-11-2010 12:41PM

AlekSmart wrote: »

Ah but our Banks have not failed....have they ?...well maybe they have...but we just don`t know,do we ? cos it`s COMMERCIALLY SENSITIVE !! ........:D

Crikey,the very notion of the Gards "rounding up" any top Irish Banker is the stuff of Peter Cook and Dudley Moore sketches..!

The **** has yet to hit the fan here yet. When people begin to actually bear the cost of this they wont be happy.

07-11-2010 01:23PM

Have RTE reported any of this? Amazing how they overlook some damaging things to FF

bastards are just as in bed with them as the bankers were during the boom

thebman · 07-11-2010 02:16PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Have RTE reported any of this? Amazing how they overlook some damaging things to FF

bastards are just as in bed with them as the bankers were during the boom

I was told I was wrong when I was saying this for the past 2 years on this board...

RTE must be privatised if it is not going to offer independant, unbiased reporting, it serves no purpose.

There is no point having a state broadcaster that behaves like a private one!

strathspey · 07-11-2010 04:31PM

When is somebody going to assassinate this Irish cretin. I can't wait to throw my faeces at his hearse.

Scofflaw · 07-11-2010 04:48PM

strathspey wrote: »

When is somebody going to assassinate this Irish cretin. I can't wait to throw my faeces at his hearse.

This isn't Dublin Zoo. If you can't do better than that sort of post, you may very easily be surplus to requirements. Will review your other posts to see if you have done better.

moderately,
Scofflaw

RonMexico · 07-11-2010 04:58PM

I haven't a doubt in my mind that in a decade or so the details that will emerge regarding corruption during the Celtic Tiger and the bailout of the banks will go right to the very top and include significant members of the government AND opposition.

Not to mention the banks, the regulator etc

This country is rotten to the core.

mrsdewinter · 07-11-2010 05:45PM

Two national papers have now alleged that Cowen had first dibs on trouble at Anglo. Neither he nor his people have denied kitchen cabinet / NTMA claims since yesterday morning... What on earth is going on? What has RTE been doing since then? Is nobody going to hold him to account?
There better be something about this on the 6 o'clock news..

thebman · 07-11-2010 06:11PM

mrsdewinter wrote: »

Two national papers have now alleged that Cowen had first dibs on trouble at Anglo. Neither he nor his people have denied kitchen cabinet / NTMA claims since yesterday morning... What on earth is going on? What has RTE been doing since then? Is nobody going to hold him to account?
There better be something about this on the 6 o'clock news..

RTE won't mention it until the person who leaked the info is named I imagine.

They'll ignore the fact that this is a story until that happens or Brian Cowen responds.

ei.sdraob · 07-11-2010 06:46PM

Laminations wrote: »

I've also just above your post alluded to, and not very subtly, the significance of this story. What are your thoughts ei?

If Brian did know about Anglo, and after all he is on record of saying "Oh **** not Anglo" on the Freefall RTE documentary.

Then himself and FF are not only incompetent but dangerous

Lunatics running the asylum and all that

sligopark · 07-11-2010 08:16PM

Iceland Ireland - whats the difference - not one letter but the presence of gombeen politicians taking their cue from the EU and trilateral commission - our traiters should be jailed

ei.sdraob · 07-11-2010 08:21PM

sligopark wrote: »

Iceland Ireland - whats the difference - not one letter but the presence of gombeen politicians taking their cue from the EU and trilateral commission - our traiters should be jailed

We are nothing like Iceland..

REYKJAVIK, Iceland (AP) — Iceland's former prime minister has become the first world leader to be referred to a special court for possible prosecution on charges that he acted negligently in the lead-up to the country's financial crisis.

Tuesday's parliament vote means that former Prime Minister Geir Haarde will appear before a special court for allegedly failing to prevent the financial crash of 2008.

sligopark · 07-11-2010 09:08PM

Iceland?

defaulted on their loans and now have a better rate of loan than Ireland?

Well done Iceland

This was the way to go yet the traiter Brian and Brian sold our nation and children's birthrights away

Zynks · 07-11-2010 10:13PM

mrsdewinter wrote: »

Two national papers have now alleged that Cowen had first dibs on trouble at Anglo. Neither he nor his people have denied kitchen cabinet / NTMA claims since yesterday morning... What on earth is going on? What has RTE been doing since then? Is nobody going to hold him to account?
There better be something about this on the 6 o'clock news..

Russian TV is doing RTE's job for us. Mention of "financial terrorism" for starters

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBbgVZz7_YM

CFC1969 · 07-11-2010 11:08PM

silkworm53 wrote: »

Cowen would have been nuts if he revealed before he had to that Anglo was bust if there appeared at that point to be still a chance of resurrecting the bank without going to the taxpayer to bail them out. That would have been absolutely crazy.
The only people who are still banging on about this issue are people who have failed to grasp that if there is a run on the banks then the entire Irish economy will completely meltdown.
No responsible leader of any country anywhere would have done any different.
It's time a lot of people stopped behaving like they are still wearing short trousers.

Silkworm,

Can you tell us what other leaders have lied to their electorate on this scale ??

I have no political affiliations, and am interested why you would think this is normal ....

charlemont · 07-11-2010 11:16PM

Its absolutely crazy how these people could mess it up so bad, as previous posts mention the difference between us and Iceland is shocking, we should learn from them..

Brian Cowen did know about Anglo Irish

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