IMF - intervention inevitable

femur61 · 04-11-2010 3:11pm #1

Just listened to news at 2pm and Newstalk news said our bond market is now effectively closed and IMF intervention is inevitable:eek:

As much as Ihope the unions will be put in their place if full intervention is required then it will be shocking for some people. I have not explored how if effected the UK in '74. Hopefully it will weed all the unfairness in society and the waste in the PS.

Fat_Fingers · 04-11-2010 3:18pm

Yields on Irish 10-year bonds have reached a new high of 7.62% ahead of a government announcement on plans to cut the deficit.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-11693654

manc · 04-11-2010 3:21pm

hardly surprising until after the budget and this is why the govt said they are not going back to the market until after 1st quarter next year

bleg · 04-11-2010 3:25pm

Everything's fine so long as you don't talk down the economy. Lehman Brothers etc...

bleg · 04-11-2010 3:25pm

manc wrote: »

hardly surprising until after the budget and this is why the govt said they are not going back to the market until after 1st quarter next year

That was the NTMA.

Sconsey · 04-11-2010 3:26pm

I thought they said the bond market was closed to Ireland so we would have to borrow from the EU stabilisation fund, don't think they said IMF.

ashleey · 04-11-2010 3:27pm

femur61 wrote: »

Just listened to news at 2pm and Newstalk news said our bond market is now effectively closed and IMF intervention is inevitable:eek:

As much as Ihope the unions will be put in their place if full intervention is required then it will be shocking for some people. I have not explored how if effected the UK in '74. Hopefully it will weed all the unfairness in society and the waste in the PS.

They didn't weed out any unfairness there. It did have a go at some waste though.

RichardAnd · 04-11-2010 3:36pm

femur61 wrote: »

Just listened to news at 2pm and Newstalk news said our bond market is now effectively closed and IMF intervention is inevitable:eek:

As much as Ihope the unions will be put in their place if full intervention is required then it will be shocking for some people. I have not explored how if effected the UK in '74. Hopefully it will weed all the unfairness in society and the waste in the PS.

You clearly have no idea what the IMF do. They don't enforce cuts upon any nations, they give a list of criteria that needs to be met before they will give any aid to the nation in question. How this is acted upon is still the prerogative of the nation as the ever remain sovereign. thus, if the IMF say X billion needs to be cut/raised then how that will be done is up to us. Do you think this will truly result in a fairer society.

ashleey · 04-11-2010 4:24pm

Sconsey wrote: »

I thought they said the bond market was closed to Ireland so we would have to borrow from the EU stabilisation fund, don't think they said IMF.

The EFSF is a fund of promised cash, some of which comes from the IMF, in order to give the illusion that it is not Joe taxpayer in Germany giving rescue cash to delinquent Greek layabouts among others.

Check the FT for recent discussion of how the actual size of the fund is a fraction of its headline figure, seeing as several 'contributors' will actually be 'users'. No wonder Merkel is busily moving the goalposts before they end up on the hook for a seriously huge bailout. If Ireland capitulates then it is only moments before Portugal is attacked, followed by Spain and even maybe Italy. It's not a pretty picture and hence the extreme pressure to keep Ireland out of the EFSF in the name of the Euro project.

Dorcha · 04-11-2010 5:03pm

femur61 wrote: »

As much as Ihope the unions will be put in their place .

Do you even know what the unions are and their reason for being? The unions were formed to protect workers from exploitation by employers. Anyone who thinks Employers would treat their workers fairly without being forced to is living in Fairyland. Traditionally governments, being of the well-off class, have always sided with the employers. In fact, it is fair to say that the only good employer is one who is bound by legislation.

pocketvenus · 04-11-2010 5:11pm

Dorcha wrote: »

Do you even know what the unions are and their reason for being? The unions were formed to protect workers from exploitation by employers. Anyone who thinks Employers would treat their workers fairly without being forced to is living in Fairyland. Traditionally governments, being of the well-off class, have always sided with the employers. In fact, it is fair to say that the only good employer is one who is bound by legislation.

This is what unions were established to look after but nowdays they wield too much power and the only interest union heads have is to look after their own €150,000 + salaries.
They honestly could not care less about their members only their subscritpion fees which are dropping due to the amount of people being made redundant.

Dorcha · 04-11-2010 5:19pm

pocketvenus wrote: »

This is what unions were established to look after but nowdays they wield too much power and the only interest union heads have is to look after their own €150,000 + salaries.
They honestly could not care less about their members only their subscritpion fees which are dropping due to the amount of people being made redundant.

I agree, and they certainly need to be reformed, but without them we would have a wage-slave economy. Even as they exist, they are still a protection for workers.

foundation10 · 04-11-2010 5:40pm

I think it is now time that the unions woke up and smelled the coffee as unless we (gov) can convince the markets that the countrys finances are under control then we greet the IMF. In order to get the finances under control we need to deal with the overinflated public sector.

We can go on all day and talk about the bank bailout. This is a one off cost and does not deal with our current deficit, in order to deal with our deficit public sector numbers and pay need to be drastically reduced immediately no talks to unions nothing, strike or no strike. I am talking about a reduction in numbers of c. 30,000 with a further reduction in the public sector pay bill of at least 10% for the forthcoming year.

It will be a sad day for everyone the day the IMF come especially those public sector dependants. We have sufficient cash reserves to keep us going for some of next year and when these are utlisied along with the pension reserve funds then the IMF are here.

zing zong · 04-11-2010 5:41pm

Dorcha wrote: »

Do you even know what the unions are and their reason for being? The unions were formed to protect workers from exploitation by employers. Anyone who thinks Employers would treat their workers fairly without being forced to is living in Fairyland. Traditionally governments, being of the well-off class, have always sided with the employers. In fact, it is fair to say that the only good employer is one who is bound by legislation.

they were set up for this reason in the beginning. thats not what they do now.

they have become corrupt, and are generally a hindrance than a help these days

Tim Robbins · 04-11-2010 5:41pm

Dorcha wrote: »

Do you even know what the unions are and their reason for being? The unions were formed to protect workers from exploitation by employers. Anyone who thinks Employers would treat their workers fairly without being forced to is living in Fairyland. Traditionally governments, being of the well-off class, have always sided with the employers. In fact, it is fair to say that the only good employer is one who is bound by legislation.

Yes and now we have a strict labour legislation and a labour court. The Unions only serve as a vested interest under the guise that they are fighting for a fair society.

Gus99 · 04-11-2010 5:43pm

Unions used to have a noble objective in defending workers rights - but such a role has been pretty much replaced/made irrelevant by large amounts of employment legislation (primarily at an EU level). In recent times, it is more about trying to extract every penny possible in return for even the most common-sense reform in the workplace. If James Connolly could see the carry-on from the likes of Begg, McLoone, O'Connor and Doran, he would turn in his grave

zing zong · 04-11-2010 5:51pm

pocketvenus wrote: »

This is what unions were established to look after but nowdays they wield too much power and the only interest union heads have is to look after their own €150,000 + salaries.
They honestly could not care less about their members only their subscritpion fees which are dropping due to the amount of people being made redundant.

fact!

Tim Robbins · 04-11-2010 5:58pm

Gus99 wrote: »

Unions used to have a noble objective in defending workers rights - but such a role has been pretty much replaced/made irrelevant by large amounts of employment legislation (primarily at an EU level). In recent times, it is more about trying to extract every penny possible in return for even the most common-sense reform in the workplace. If James Connolly could see the carry-on from the likes of Begg, McLoone, O'Connor and Doran, he would turn in his grave

Agreed. I doubt he'd be fighting to keep an half to cash a cheque.

The origin of unions were to fight explotation now, they are the one exploting and ripping people off.

johnboy_123 · 04-11-2010 6:01pm

To all P.S workers on here saying cut this that and the other first before my wage I garentee you that your wage will be first for the chop only a blind man can how overpaid and overbloated the P.S ...but the guys on the boards here have been shouting the odds and gloating about the CPA

ART6 · 04-11-2010 6:18pm

What the unions do or don't do is wandering from the OP, but in my long career in general management of engineering companies I encouraged unions for the simple reason that I couldn't discuss company business with every individual employee. I saw the union rep as the contact between me and the workforce, and therefore almost a part of the management team. He would relay management decisions to the workforce, and then at a weekly meeting would tell me how they felt about it.

He could present the management view and explain why I felt the actions I proposed were necessary, and he could bring the feedback to the management team. At no time were any of the reps management toadies -- on the contrary some of them were firebrands. But the important thing for me was that the system made the workforce feel that they were part of the organisation and not just hirelings to be treated with contempt.

So, if our order book was a little sparse, the workforce knew. If it was full and thriving, they knew that too. And they knew that the latter gave them job security. It didn't automatically trigger wage demands because they felt part of the company. They knew we would pay them well and treat them well. It's called leadership -- something that is sadly lacking in Ireland nowadays.

The fundamental principle of management is that no manager ever created a profit. What he actually did if he was successful was to provide the resources and the environment for the workforce to do that. So, in my simplistic view, if the IMF, the ECB, or Jesus Christ needs to rescue Ireland then it is the fault of incompetent management---period. No use blaming the unions or the international financial situation or the collapse in property values. You guys ( Mr. Lenihan, Mr. Cowen)are supposed to be the management. The buck stops with you.

Tim Robbins · 04-11-2010 6:22pm

ART6 wrote: »

What the unions do or don't do is wandering from the OP,

an enlightening post...

hatrickpatrick · 04-11-2010 7:14pm

I'm not going to claim I know how to solve this problem, but WTF @ people calling for thousands of public sector workers to lose their jobs.

They'll go straight from being paid by the government in wages to being paid by the government in unemployment benefit. Oh yes, that's just what this country needs - MORE unemployment. MORE emigration.

There are things which need to be done in this country to solve our problems, sure. Firing more people and adding to an already disastrous live register tally is NOT one of them.

rumour · 04-11-2010 7:19pm

ART6 wrote: »

What the unions do or don't do is wandering from the OP, but in my long career in general management of engineering companies I encouraged unions for the simple reason that I couldn't discuss company business with every individual employee. I saw the union rep as the contact between me and the workforce, and therefore almost a part of the management team. He would relay management decisions to the workforce, and then at a weekly meeting would tell me how they felt about it.

He could present the management view and explain why I felt the actions I proposed were necessary, and he could bring the feedback to the management team. At no time were any of the reps management toadies -- on the contrary some of them were firebrands. But the important thing for me was that the system made the workforce feel that they were part of the organisation and not just hirelings to be treated with contempt.

So, if our order book was a little sparse, the workforce knew. If it was full and thriving, they knew that too. And they knew that the latter gave them job security. It didn't automatically trigger wage demands because they felt part of the company. They knew we would pay them well and treat them well. It's called leadership -- something that is sadly lacking in Ireland nowadays.

The fundamental principle of management is that no manager ever created a profit. What he actually did if he was successful was to provide the resources and the environment for the workforce to do that. So, in my simplistic view, if the IMF, the ECB, or Jesus Christ needs to rescue Ireland then it is the fault of incompetent management---period. No use blaming the unions or the international financial situation or the collapse in property values. You guys ( Mr. Lenihan, Mr. Cowen)are supposed to be the management. The buck stops with you.

Sounds like CIE!!!!:pac:

The_Honeybadger · 04-11-2010 7:28pm

Dorcha wrote: »

Do you even know what the unions are and their reason for being? The unions were formed to protect workers from exploitation by employers. Anyone who thinks Employers would treat their workers fairly without being forced to is living in Fairyland. Traditionally governments, being of the well-off class, have always sided with the employers. In fact, it is fair to say that the only good employer is one who is bound by legislation.

That's funny,I have been in several well paid non union jobs where I have been treated extremely fairly and I don't live in fairyland.

rumour · 04-11-2010 7:28pm

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I'm not going to claim I know how to solve this problem, but WTF @ people calling for thousands of public sector workers to lose their jobs.

They'll go straight from being paid by the government in wages to being paid by the government in unemployment benefit. Oh yes, that's just what this country needs - MORE unemployment. MORE emigration.

There are things which need to be done in this country to solve our problems, sure. Firing more people and adding to an already disastrous live register tally is NOT one of them.

Your not getting it really unemployment benefit will be cut as well. 33bn income 50bn expenditure. Every little and last thing in the PS does needs to be cut by 40%.
Also we have the option of taxing some say, tax won't work given only approx 900,000 pay tax to get that back everyone needs to pay €1800 a month extra.
Now I may be wrong perhaps the public sector could afford this but the vast vast majority of private sector workers will just turn off the lights and leave. Even €140 extra a month would cause difficulties. Then the cuts have to happen.

The only credible plan we can have to borrow is to demonstrate we don't need to. Catch 22. The game is almost up.

jimmycrackcorm · 04-11-2010 8:17pm

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I'm not going to claim I know how to solve this problem, but WTF @ people calling for thousands of public sector workers to lose their jobs.

They'll go straight from being paid by the government in wages to being paid by the government in unemployment benefit. Oh yes, that's just what this country needs - MORE unemployment. MORE emigration.

There are things which need to be done in this country to solve our problems, sure. Firing more people and adding to an already disastrous live register tally is NOT one of them.

What people are calling for is the firing of public sector staff that are actually surplus to requirements, that means for example scores of middle managers in the HSE. They are also looking for Public service wages to be benchmarked again because that would correct the original benchmarking which is out of kilter. Public service wages went up due to the boom conditions just as house prices did; house prices are correcting but public sector wages aren't.

I'm only using this as inaccurate example but you know that we could actually have twice as many teachers as we do now if they were paid half of what they are but teachers feel they are worth the money they get paid. who determines that now unless it is their own opinion.

dan_d · 04-11-2010 8:20pm

The question is is it cheaper to have the PS workers on the dole or in a job.
Either way, the tax payer is paying them.

The bond markets are closed to us, however we are not borrowing til at least after Christmas.

Can we stop with the frantic IMF posts? It's a possibility, but then so is being knocked down by a bus. We don't know what's going to happen, but what we do know is that we need to avoid a situation where the IMF do have to come in, and so far we are managing to do that. They will not be the magical fairy godmother that will happily restore bubble land as some people seem to think they will.

There are far more factors at play out there influencing the bond markets. What have we actually done or not done in the last week on the days the percentages rose? Nothing, last I checked. So I highly doubt that it's anything we as a nation are doing right at this point in time to influence the bonds.Therefore it has to be external forces - my eyes are looking at what Angela Merkel has been saying lately....

Spudmonkey · 04-11-2010 8:26pm

Dorcha wrote: »

Do you even know what the unions are and their reason for being? The unions were formed to protect workers from exploitation by employers. Anyone who thinks Employers would treat their workers fairly without being forced to is living in Fairyland. Traditionally governments, being of the well-off class, have always sided with the employers. In fact, it is fair to say that the only good employer is one who is bound by legislation.

Perhaps in the 19th century when your evil employer resembled burnsie...

I think modern unions have lost their way and now are more interested in short term gains and don't give a toss about their members...

Did anyone hear a mention on the radio about when our interested repayments went over 7% it was a certainty that we would need external assistance?

Dorcha · 04-11-2010 8:42pm

Spudmonkey wrote: »

Perhaps in the 19th century when your evil employer resembled burnsie...

Let the unions become extinct and you'll soon discover the difference. Fashions change, but human nature doesn't.

Dorcha · 04-11-2010 8:46pm

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Yes and now we have a strict labour legislation and a labour court. The Unions only serve as a vested interest under the guise that they are fighting for a fair society.

The Labour Court is only there because of the Unions. Your belief in the benevolence of politicians is touching.

Spudmonkey · 04-11-2010 9:28pm

Dorcha wrote: »

Let the unions become extinct and you'll soon discover the difference. Fashions change, but human nature doesn't.

You've said it!

No union represents me or any of my colleagues, nor would I have one. We are well treated, paid well and we get our work done.

Others (workers) in the same company who are represented by unions I can only describe as being extremely lazy. You will see them standing at reception, waiting to clock out with 15 mins to go and I've heard some of them refer to the job as a "handy number".

No wonder then that I have less faith in some of the employees than the employers, bringing me back to your point above.

I don't agree when its somehow evil for an employer to exploit an employee but grand when its the other way around. Trust is supposed to work both ways and what made companies like Toyota so successful in the 70's and 80's. Modern unions have completely lost their way.

Anyway this is wwaaayyyyyy off-topic!!

ei.sdraob · 04-11-2010 9:53pm

Some people think that because we dont have to go to the markets to borrow again until 2011 everything be hunky dory, but:

* the likes of Anglo have over 30 billion in promissory notes, they can come knocking on the door at any time asking for all or some of this in shiny cash

if this happens then it could be the event that completely topples us over and forces us into the market looking for more money sooner than expected

something to think about....

murphaph · 04-11-2010 10:01pm

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I'm not going to claim I know how to solve this problem, but WTF @ people calling for thousands of public sector workers to lose their jobs.

They'll go straight from being paid by the government in wages to being paid by the government in unemployment benefit. Oh yes, that's just what this country needs - MORE unemployment. MORE emigration.

There are things which need to be done in this country to solve our problems, sure. Firing more people and adding to an already disastrous live register tally is NOT one of them.

If there are 5000 people in the HSE doing nothing or at best sharing work that could be handled by the remaining staff, then of course it makes sense to take them off the payroll and make them redundant. If they end up on the dole (as is likely for many) it's still a net saving to the exchequer at no cost to service levels.

The dole and the PS is the same pot of money so a public servant who is surplus to requirements should absolutely be transfered onto the dole by way of redundancy. The dole itself will need serious cuts over the coming years. rewarding ourselves with some of the most generous unemployment benefits in Europe is simply not possible anymore. It will undoubtedly be tough for many and will force the hand of many to emigrate but the sums don't add up. Dole has to be cut and cut down to UK sort of levels which is miles away from what it is.

This is the economic reality of a country that has seriously blown it. The numbers are massive. We should see leadership from our politicians (TDs should be volunteering to take massive paycuts and should be forfeiting all but the state pension, but they won't of course) but even if we had some of this, it wouldn't make a dent in our financial hole: the defecit is much too big for that. Increased taxes and reduced tax reliefs are part of the solution but will come nowhere near closing the gap.

It will have to come from PS pay and SW payments.

Scarab80 · 04-11-2010 10:08pm

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Some people think that because we dont have to go to the markets to borrow again until 2011 everything be hunky dory, but:

* the likes of Anglo have over 30 billion in promissory notes, they can come knocking on the door at any time asking for all or some of this in shiny cash

if this happens then it could be the event that completely topples us over and forces us into the market looking for more money sooner than expected

something to think about....

Where did you get that idea from?

The promissory notes are based on fixed payment drawdowns over 10 - 15 years, in fact in order to meet 10% deficit target by next year interest will now not be paid for the next 2 years - how Anglo then pay their creditors I have no idea.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-11-04/ireland-to-take-2-year-interest-holiday-on-bank-bailout-method.html

bryaner · 05-11-2010 12:36am

murphaph wrote: »

If there are 5000 people in the HSE doing nothing or at best sharing work that could be handled by the remaining staff, then of course it makes sense to take them off the payroll and make them redundant. If they end up on the dole (as is likely for many) it's still a net saving to the exchequer at no cost to service levels.

The dole and the PS is the same pot of money so a public servant who is surplus to requirements should absolutely be transfered onto the dole by way of redundancy. The dole itself will need serious cuts over the coming years. rewarding ourselves with some of the most generous unemployment benefits in Europe is simply not possible anymore. It will undoubtedly be tough for many and will force the hand of many to emigrate but the sums don't add up. Dole has to be cut and cut down to UK sort of levels which is miles away from what it is.

This is the economic reality of a country that has seriously blown it. The numbers are massive. We should see leadership from our politicians (TDs should be volunteering to take massive paycuts and should be forfeiting all but the state pension, but they won't of course) but even if we had some of this, it wouldn't make a dent in our financial hole: the defecit is much too big for that. Increased taxes and reduced tax reliefs are part of the solution but will come nowhere near closing the gap.

It will have to come from PS pay and SW payments.

£60 a week would be pretty good here if the cost of living was the same.

Sandvich · 05-11-2010 1:18am

Gus99 wrote: »

Unions used to have a noble objective in defending workers rights - but such a role has been pretty much replaced/made irrelevant by large amounts of employment legislation (primarily at an EU level). In recent times, it is more about trying to extract every penny possible in return for even the most common-sense reform in the workplace. If James Connolly could see the carry-on from the likes of Begg, McLoone, O'Connor and Doran, he would turn in his grave

There are still things you can't legislate or are difficult to legislate that you need unions for. You can't legislate for general unfairness or many forms of appearance based discrimination.

ei.sdraob · 05-11-2010 9:38am

Scarab80 wrote: »

Where did you get that idea from?

The promissory notes are based on fixed payment drawdowns over 10 - 15 years, in fact in order to meet 10% deficit target by next year interest will now not be paid for the next 2 years - how Anglo then pay their creditors I have no idea.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-11-04/ireland-to-take-2-year-interest-holiday-on-bank-bailout-method.html

The original description of them when they were issued, it was only in the last few weeks that we learned that there is also interest to be paid of them of about 5%

Jaysoose · 05-11-2010 11:00am

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

What people are calling for is the firing of public sector staff that are actually surplus to requirements, that means for example scores of middle managers in the HSE. They are also looking for Public service wages to be benchmarked again because that would correct the original benchmarking which is out of kilter. Public service wages went up due to the boom conditions just as house prices did; house prices are correcting but public sector wages aren't.

I'm only using this as inaccurate example but you know that we could actually have twice as many teachers as we do now if they were paid half of what they are but teachers feel they are worth the money they get paid. who determines that now unless it is their own opinion.

These are the same teachers that will sit on their hands when kids are being taught in delapitated pre-fabs but if their pay is even threatened they are on the streets and joe duffy quick as a flash.

This country of ours is going down the toilet quicker that usain bolt does 100mtrs. I for one will be leaving the country after the budget if property taxes etc come in as it simply will not be financially viable to stay and contribute to the third rate system we have at the minute.

pakalasa · 05-11-2010 11:20am

Joining the Euro got us into this mess.
Is it not obvious that leaving the Euro will solve ALL problems.:rolleyes:

ei.sdraob · 05-11-2010 11:30am

pakalasa wrote: »

Joining the Euro got us into this mess.

our culture, the people and the government caused this mess and made it worse

pakalasa wrote: »

Is it not obvious that leaving the Euro will solve ALL problems.:rolleyes:

and cause a whole string of larger problems

now a dual currency system with Public servants and Welfare being paid in Irish Pesos :P now thats something to think about ....

DiscoStu · 05-11-2010 11:48am

ei.sdraob wrote: »

now a dual currency system with Public servants and Welfare being paid in Irish Pesos :P now thats something to think about ....

Damn son, I likes your thinking. Maybe we can use the old Zimbabwean dollar so at least the payment denominations don't need a change. Everyone keeps their millionaire status. That alone should offset the pain as the standard of living falls. No need to print our own either, there must be plenty of them lying around somewhere.

Amhran Nua · 05-11-2010 11:59am

bleg wrote: »

Everything's fine so long as you don't talk down the economy. Lehman Brothers etc...

Ah yes, the tinkerbell school of economics; just close the eyes and wish really hard...

RichardAnd wrote: »

How this is acted upon is still the prerogative of the nation as the ever remain sovereign.

I think in most cases they do give a list of recommendations as to where and how to apply austerity.

ei.sdraob · 05-11-2010 12:02pm

DiscoStu wrote: »

Damn son, I likes your thinking. Maybe we can use the old Zimbabwean dollar so at least the payment denominations don't need a change. Everyone keeps their millionaire status. That alone should offset the pain as the standard of living falls. No need to print our own either, there must be plenty of them lying around somewhere.

i dont think Croke Park mentions anything about being paid in euros, so we can even give them a raise (in new punts of course) to rub salt on wound, and the rate could start at 1:1 and of course devalue like a rock

anyways its not really realistic since would need some of the state servants to implement such a system and of course once they get whiff of it there be war

oh damn feel so evil.

Tim Robbins · 05-11-2010 12:36pm

Dorcha wrote: »

The Labour Court is only there because of the Unions.

Yeah and children don't work up chimneys because of Unions too. Great. I acknowledges Unions had their place but the point I was making was they had gone way beyond their remit which originally was valid.

[COLOR]
Your belief in the benevolence of politicians is touching.[/COLOR]

I believe in Democracy. Unions are now only acting as a vested interest only interested in their members which is a subversion of democracy. They do this, otherwise their members wouldn't pay 10 euros a month. And if they don't have thousands of members paying 10 euros a month, they can't pay themselves 150K a year for essentially doing nothing other than moaning and trying to stop certain things which don't benefit their paying members happen.

They make it harder for policies for the common good because things have to be ok'd by them. But they only represent at most about 1 / 6 of society. I believe in the common good not vested interests.

jaycee13 · 08-11-2010 11:08pm

Perhaps IMF intervention is now inevitable. The reports over the weekend that some Govt. TD's (FF) will not back the Budget if their own particular agendas are not met (not necessarily on OAP rate cuts) really does seem that the waifer thin majority of 2 in the Dail will not suffice. No budget passed equals an election and a deferred budget in January possibly. Do the parish pump politicaians on all sides not realise this? Our own Dail is going to deliver us into the hands of the IMF and compromise the sovereignity that so many generations worked so hard to achieve.

Inquitus · 08-11-2010 11:17pm

IMF intervention is now inevitable imo, I don't see us being able to borrow at an acceptable rate when we need to hit the bond markets in Q1 next year.

I would ask this, what are the negative knock on effects of having to dip into the EU/IMF fund? The IMF/EU are unlikely to want a huge amount more than the 6bn next year, and 15bn over 4 years that our Gov is currently proposing. We will however be able to avail of cheaper borrowing than we could otherwise which is of obvious benefit. The only negatives I have seen in the news is loss of credibility etc on the global stage, is that likely to translate into any real negative changes for the people of Ireland?

IMF - intervention inevitable

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